Guard of honour for rescue 9/11 rescue dog.

DrumSteve · 08-06-2016 11:31AM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Have you found Jesus yet, DrumSteve?

I had a look but I think he might be behind the curtains.

lawlolawl · 08-06-2016 11:42AM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Sports does more for a nation than most politicians or agenda setters.

The National team under Charlton brought immense pride to Ireland despite not really winning that many games in tournaments. People like Barry McGuigan was able to UNITE people , North AND South , through his boxing. Our Rugby team has shown what can be done when the whole island sticks together. Northern Irish soccer team will surely be a feel good factor in the North - some might not be seen to follow them but bandwagons are bandwagons.

That's exactly my problem.

Occasional token gestures for actual everyday heroes and people who died for the country VS. blanket daily coverage of people playing games good.

Barry Badrinath · 08-06-2016 12:54PM

Superhorse wrote: »

It's a bloody mutt for Christ sake. Don't get why they did it at all.

You don't "get" symbolism atallatallatall

Maireadio · 08-06-2016 01:38PM

Poor woof woof. I'm sure there was a very good reason for putting her down but it's so sad to see her go to her final destination tail-a-wagging.

17 is a great innings for a dog though, especially one that worked around the dust of Ground Zero.

Maireadio · 08-06-2016 01:44PM

smash wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't stuff it and put it in a museum.

They may well do that!

HensVassal · 08-06-2016 01:49PM

Maireadio wrote: »

Poor woof woof. I'm sure there was a very good reason for putting her down but it's so sad to see her go to her final destination tail-a-wagging. 17 is a great innings for a dog though, especially one that worked around the dust of Ground Zero.

She lasted a lot longer than a large number of people and emergency workers who have died of cancer from the dust.

Red_Wake · 08-06-2016 02:09PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Do not honour the dead

Have you been missing for the last 6 months?

Even World War 1 & 2 dead (and subsequent members) get a special State Mass at Kilmainham Hospital at the end of the year. Every graveyard in the country where there is a sizable army presence in the towns have a lovely little part of the graveyard dedicated to dead members who served with the UN

Street names, bridges, barracks, railway stations, football stadiums are named after......................................

Sports does more for a nation than most politicians or agenda setters.

The National team under Charlton brought immense pride to Ireland despite not really winning that many games in tournaments. People like Barry McGuigan was able to UNITE people , North AND South , through his boxing. Our Rugby team has shown what can be done when the whole island sticks together. Northern Irish soccer team will surely be a feel good factor in the North - some might not be seen to follow them but bandwagons are bandwagons.

Utter nonsense.

If the actions of athletes and sporting organisations matter more than the actions of political organisation, we'd remember Edmund Forrest more than Charles Parnell.

Maireadio · 08-06-2016 02:10PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Then he's probably VERY sad. In fact, he's likely in the depths of despair. Why do people need to use the word "devastated" for people who have been bereaved or even for people who have experienced a slight emotional setback?

Why are you fixating on this?

I hate when people reach for the dictionary definitions but it's necessary here. One definition is 'to cause someone severe and overwhelming shock or grief.' You think someone shouldn't feel the above definition of devastated at the loss of a loved one?

Lt Dan · 08-06-2016 02:15PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

That's exactly my problem.

Occasional token gestures for actual everyday heroes and people who died for the country VS. blanket daily coverage of people playing games good.

The 1916 Commemorations were hardly a token gesture. A ceremony is held each year to remember all service men and women. Streets , bridges , railway stations have been named after the founding fathers of this country. What more do you want

The Proclamation happens to be read in public, outside the GPO EVERY Easter Monday in front of a big crowd.

In fact, we get talked down by the West Brits and "Intellects" who ask us to be more mature and try to play down the significance of 1916.

The British have their time of remembrance every year in November

Who are these actual every day hero's? Gardai? Doctors? Teachers? Nurses? etc

You would swear that most of them are doing it for nothing. Rightly, they will be looked after with good State pensions and even, if lucky, early retirement, and often, a job for life even if they are grossly under qualified and incompetent (would not begrudge them)

Every time we celebrate those who die for Ireland, we have to be sensitive to another crowd, usually a minority, in case we offend them

Lt Dan · 08-06-2016 02:28PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Utter nonsense.

If the actions of athletes and sporting organisations matter more than the actions of political organisation, we'd remember Edmund Forrest more than Charles Parnell.

When you are going to start getting stroppy, you better read what is said rather than you you imagined. It might not make your response look utterly laughable and pathetic .

I NEVER said "that the actions of athletes and sporting organisations MATTER more than the actions of political organisations".

I just said sports (and the arts) tended to play a better role in developing Ireland. That they have done more to give Ireland a positive image . That does NOT equate that that they MATTER more than what politicians do. That would be crazy talk

What is Parnell remembered more for? His fall from grace. His Failure to achieve Home Rule.And, of course his creation of the modern political party, the party whip system.

If you think the contributions of organisations like the Gaelic Athletic Association have done nothing, or that their mark on Irish culture and social life is minimal, your intelligence has to be called into question. Have a good walk around Dublin during the 6 Nations month or during the peak season of the GAA in August - September (and many County Towns during the summer) and tell me that sports fail to contribute to the Irish economy.

You going to seriously suggest that the Irish breeding of thoroughbred race horeses contributes SFA in jobs and exports to the economy ?

When Nordies think of the past, and asked to look at the good times, what will it be? McGuigan winning a world title or Northern Ireland soccer team doing well at a World Cup vs the usual politician telling his people what his community wanted to hear but doing the opposite, politicians of both communities sharing platforms with murderers?

Red_Wake · 08-06-2016 02:37PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

When you are going to start getting stroppy, you better read what is said rather than you you imagined.

I never said "that the actions of athletes and sporting organisations MATTER more than the actions of political organisations".

I just said sports (and the arts) tended to play a better role in developing Ireland. That they have done more to give Ireland a positive image . That does NOT equate that that they MATTER more than what politicians do. That would be crazy talk

What is Parnell remembered more for? His fall from grace. His Failure to achieve Home Rule.And, of course his creation of the modern political party, the party whip system.

If you think the contributions of organisations like the Gaelic Athletic Association have done nothing, or that their mark on Irish culture and social life is minimal, your intelligence has to be called into question. Have a good walk around Dublin during the 6 Nations month or during the peak season of the GAA in August - September (and many County Towns during the summer) and tell me that sports fail to contribute to the Irish economy.

You going to seriously suggest that the Irish breeding of thoroughbred race horeses contributes SFA in jobs and exports to the economy ?

When Nordies think of the past, and asked to look at the good times, what will it be? McGuigan winning a world title or Northern Ireland soccer team doing well at a World Cup vs the usual politician telling his people what his community wanted to hear but doing the opposite, politicians of both communities sharing platforms with murderers?

You originally claimed that sport "does more" for a country then politicians, a generalist statement that could be interpreted to mean either of the statements you deny stating directly above.

Personally I'd claim the GAA has had a negative effect on Ireland over it's lifetime, and many of the worst aspects of the Irish character can be traced back to the GAA [me feinism and gombeenism, not to mention the infiltrationof the GAA by the provos with a view to recruiting from it], so that example is moot.

Also, I never claimed sport contributes nothing to the country, merely that politicians contribute more. The racehorses being bred and trained here benefit from a friendly tax regime as much as anything else.

ScumLord · 08-06-2016 02:46PM

I sure the dog's handler is devastated. Having looked up the meaning of the word it could easily be applied.

There's still only one thing that can bring me to the verge of tears just thinking about it, and that's my dog from when I was a young lad. She must be dead 10 years now but I'd rate the relationship as one of the best in my life.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

What, like death notices so? Dunno, seems all a bit quasi-religious IMO. Ain't nobody got time for a minute silence of remembrance over a tasty rump steak.

I don't really know how we could honor our cattle, maybe a large golden statue could be constructed at the foot of croagh patrick? Large red banners with the face of a cow on it should be hung from all government buildings.

But I honestly do think we should find some way of promoting cattle and their welfare in Ireland. We should have a lot of respect for their contribution. They not only feed the entire nation, but they produce an abundance that brings money into the country. I think we should go give them the highest quality of life we can, make our beef the best in the world, and charge a good price for it.

It should be extended to all domestic animals but cattle would be an easy one to push over the line, they already have a good quality of life here.

thegreatgonzo · 08-06-2016 02:59PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I think it's something we should bring back, we should be honoring cattle in this country like we did in the past, without them we wouldn't be the same country.

Yes I think it's something that should be remembered. There was a really nice story in one of my mother's schoolbooks about a cow that kept a family of orphans alive during the famine and it probably was the difference between life and death if you were lucky enough to have one back then.

08-06-2016 03:11PM

McGruber wrote: »

The dog may not be able to comprehend the importance of it's function but that's irrelevant.

I disagree.

Brave heroism implies nobility of character: a conscious disregard for the self in favour of the common good.

Try to imagine an horiffically fat man following a trail of oreo biscuits through a woodland, which unwittingly leads him to a cage in which is locked a couple of kidnapped children. His actions have led to their discovery, but rather than being conscious and self-disregarding, the fat man was motivated by instinct and self-interest.

It is just so with rescue dogs. They cannot foretell the outcome of their activities; they demonstrate no complex understanding of their work, aside from instinct and reward.

I myself have used lure-reward techniques in training retrievers, and it works marvelously. These animals have a predisposition to retrieve, which is delveloped by appealing to their self-interest.

The dog which is described as a "hero" is, in fact, acting from self-interest and instinct. There is no nobility of action, in that he cannot adequately comprehend the consequences of his behaviour, either for himself or for others.

Similarly, the dog who barks at a gun-wielding burglar and alerts the master of the house, is no more a hero than the same dog who goes berserk over a couple of annoying, but harmless, countryside ramblers who decide to stray onto private property.

I'm a dog lover, and loving dogs requires that you must know their limits, never overfacing them with unrealistic expectations, or mistreating them by approaching them like humans.

Antropomorphism is a frequent mistake of the most awful & naive of dog owners. These people have no business owning intelligent animals, which many dogs undoubtedly are.

Very few, if any dogs, can really be considered heroic, however.

If I was stuck under an overwhelming amount of rubble and debris, unconscious and unable to call for help. Id be delighted if there was a well trained rescue dog, whose purpose it was to detect me and hopefully, save my life.

As would you.

Of course I would. That has nothing to do with heroism.

I'd be similarly delighted if I were trapped in a cage in the woods, only to be discovered by an enormous fat man who'd followed a trail of cookies I had dropped for that purpose.

Upon release, I'd send him a case of jelly-beans in gratitude, but I'd hardly think he should be hero-worshipped.

Allinall · 08-06-2016 03:20PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I disagree.

Brave heroism implies nobility of character: a conscious disregard for the self in favour of the common good.

Try to imagine an horiffically fat man following a trail of oreo biscuits through a woodland, which unwittingly leads him to a cage in which is locked a couple of kidnapped children. His actions have led to their discovery, but rather than being conscious and self-disregarding, the fat man was motivated by instinct and self-interest.

It is just so with rescue dogs. They cannot foretell the outcome of their activities; they demonstrate no complex understanding of their work, aside from instinct and reward.

I myself have used lure-reward techniques in training retrievers, and it works marvelously. These animals have a predisposition to retrieve, which is delveloped by appealing to their self-interest.

The dog which is described as a "hero" is, in fact, acting from self-interest and instinct. There is no nobility of action, in that he cannot adequately comprehend the consequences of his behaviour, either for himself or for others.

Similarly, the dog who barks at a gun-wielding burglar and alerts the master of the house, is no more a hero than the same dog who goes berserk over a couple of annoying, but harmless, countryside ramblers who decide to stray onto private property.

I'm a dog lover, and loving dogs requires that you must know their limits, never overfacing them with unrealistic expectations, or mistreating them by approaching them like humans.

Antropomorphism is a frequent mistake of the most awful & naive of dog owners. These people have no business owning intelligent animals, which many dogs undoubtedly are.

Very few, if any dogs, can really be considered heroic, however.

Of course I would. That has nothing to do with heroism.

I'd be similarly delighted if I were trapped in a cage in the woods, only to be discovered by an enormous fat man who'd followed a trail of cookies I had dropped for that purpose.

Upon release, I'd send him a case of jelly-beans in gratitude, but I'd hardly think he should be hero-worshipped.

I'd really hate to be your dog.

Barry Badrinath · 08-06-2016 03:22PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I disagree.

Brave heroism implies nobility of character: a conscious disregard for the self in favour of the common good.

Try to imagine an horiffically fat man following a trail of oreo biscuits through a woodland, which unwittingly leads him to a cage in which is locked a couple of kidnapped children. His actions have led to their discovery, but rather than being conscious and self-disregarding, the fat man was motivated by instinct and self-interest.

It is just so with rescue dogs. They cannot foretell the outcome of their activities; they demonstrate no complex understanding of their work, aside from instinct and reward.

I myself have used lure-reward techniques in training retrievers, and it works marvelously. These animals have a predisposition to retrieve, which is delveloped by appealing to their self-interest.

The dog which is described as a "hero" is, in fact, acting from self-interest and instinct. There is no nobility of action, in that he cannot adequately comprehend the consequences of his behaviour, either for himself or for others.

Similarly, the dog who barks at a gun-wielding burglar and alerts the master of the house, is no more a hero than the same dog who goes berserk over a couple of annoying, but harmless, countryside ramblers who decide to stray onto private property.

I'm a dog lover, and loving dogs requires that you must know their limits, never overfacing them with unrealistic expectations, or mistreating them by approaching them like humans.

Antropomorphism is a frequent mistake of the most awful & naive of dog owners. These people have no business owning intelligent animals, which many dogs undoubtedly are.

Very few, if any dogs, can really be considered heroic, however.

Of course I would. That has nothing to do with heroism.

I'd be similarly delighted if I were trapped in a cage in the woods, only to be discovered by an enormous fat man who'd followed a trail of cookies I had dropped for that purpose.

Upon release, I'd send him a case of jelly-beans in gratitude, but I'd hardly think he should be hero-worshipped.

Rightyho then. Tell me more about these Oreo's.

lawred2 · 08-06-2016 03:24PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

I saw this on the net and my first reaction was WTF. A dog is brought to the vet to be put down at the end of its working life. It was a 9/11 rescue dog. 15 years later a guard of honour is given to a dog who has no idea of what it means. None of his or her relatives will either. Now first reactions aren't always the best but I want AH to look at this and tell me: have we gone doggone nuts? Has the US gone 9/11 nuts? What do you think of this? Deserved? Appropriate? Lunatics taking over the asylum?

Why care?

It likely meant a lot to the handlers

08-06-2016 03:25PM

Allinall wrote: »

I'd really hate to be your dog.

Because I actually bother to think about my dogs' cognitive processes, because I don't have unrealistic expectations of them?

I have never had a behavioural issue with a dog, never neglected a dog, never made unrealistic demands of one, never treated a dog like a hero or an idiot, but only like a dog, trying to understand its own unique view of the world.

Come back to me when you see the disasters created by 'dog lovers' who abandon their dogs from 9-5 and end up with behavioural problems because they treat their dogs like human beings.

I'd hate to be their dog.

Rubberchikken · 08-06-2016 03:29PM

i think it's an excellent way to honour a dog who did great work at a terrible time.
they are trained for a reason, and while it may seem just 'fun' or part of their natural instinct, they do a very important job and it should never be belittled.,

a lovely gesture by people who obviously admired and respected him.

Lt Dan · 08-06-2016 03:37PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

You originally claimed that sport "does more" for a country then politicians, a generalist statement that could be interpreted to mean either of the statements you deny stating directly above.

And that equates to "If the actions of athletes and sporting organisations matter more than the actions of political organisation" , how?

Your interpretation is wrong, laughable and very disingenuous

Red_Wake wrote: »

Personally I'd claim the GAA has had a negative effect on Ireland over it's lifetime, and many of the worst aspects of the Irish character can be traced back to the GAA [me feinism and gombeenism, not to mention the infiltrationof the GAA by the provos with a view to recruiting from it], so that example is moot. [/QUOTE

Factually, your personal view on the GAA is inaccurate, and utterly irrelevant and worthless.

The GAA promoted a cultural identity of pride in the parish and county, promoted cultural pastimes that included music and the national language and frankly has helped to keep rural areas alive will the economy and the politicians forget the areas.

Rugby for a long time had their own barriers and boys clubs.

So the Provo's failed to infiltrate soccer teams too , hmm? you are also pathetically implying that most parts of Ireland were associated with the Provisional IRA. The example is valid, unlike your laughable Parnell comparison

Considering the Raven Hill Brigade and Linfield Firm did little to dissuade young Catholic Northerners from joining the Provo's , you can not leave the blame on the GAA for that.

I doubt many of those lads in the Dáíl have really been involved in the GAA for years, I know for a fact most of Stormont haven't either. So GAA can not always be blamed for them.

You might want to educate yourself on why the Irish Football Association really split in 1921 and look at the carry on of both the IFA and FAI. Being unable to manage a P*&& up in a brewery is not really something that one can accuse the GAA of unlike IFA & FAI

Red_Wake wrote: »

Also, I never claimed sport contributes nothing to the country, merely that politicians contribute more. The racehorses being bred and trained here benefit from a friendly tax regime as much as anything else.

Disagree with you, but, Fine.The problem is ,in making that statement you dishonestly stated that I said that sports "MATTERED MORE". I said nothing of the sort.

"Friendly tax regime" is in place to prevent the best of Irish thoroughbreds from being exported . This results in creating more jobs in racing studs like Ballydoyle , Rosemount, Coolcullen etc. The better the horses, the better the crowds to attend the races. The more that come to the races, the more staff needed at the race course. A little like the Corporation Tax for business, it is an incentive to strengthen the industry in Ireland - as Ireland has the better weather and land to breed horses

DEFTLEFTHAND · 08-06-2016 04:34PM

I thought that was really nice. I've seen it done before for other Military and Emergency Services dogs.

ScumLord · 08-06-2016 04:47PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It is just so with rescue dogs. They cannot foretell the outcome of their activities; they demonstrate no complex understanding of their work, aside from instinct and reward.

A lot of what you say is true, we do the dogs no favours by treating them as humans. I think you're right that in a lot of cases the dog doesn't really understand what it's up to, they're just enacting their training to please their master and have fun.

I myself have used lure-reward techniques in training retrievers, and it works marvelously. These animals have a predisposition to retrieve, which is delveloped by appealing to their self-interest.

I think there's also a big difference between the relationship a normal person has with their dog and the relationship trainers can have. The only real experience I have had with professional training was 2nd hand through a friend who was doing schutzhund. I felt the way some trainers treated the dogs was borderline cruel in that the only interaction between dog and owner seemed to be for training and competition. The dog was essentially locked up until it was doing schutzhund as a way to keep it motivated, it either did everything exactly or went back in the cage.

I wouldn't say it's the same relationship you'd get between a farmer and his sheepdog. The sheepdog is a working dog, but I suppose has centuries of breeding meaning it requires less training. Schutzhund probably goes against the nature of a dog a bit in that dogs generally don't want to bite people.

But I do think trainers can get blinkered to their way of training. The dog I had as a young lad could practically read my mind, I could get it to do stuff just by giving it a look. It was a built up relationship and maybe I'm anthropomorphising slightly but I think the dog often had at least a simple understanding of what was going on.

The dog which is described as a "hero" is, in fact, acting from self-interest and instinct. There is no nobility of action, in that he cannot adequately comprehend the consequences of his behaviour, either for himself or for others.

Dogs also have a lack of fear because they probably think their masters are borderline invincible gods. They trust us implicitly.

Similarly, the dog who barks at a gun-wielding burglar and alerts the master of the house, is no more a hero than the same dog who goes berserk over a couple of annoying, but harmless, countryside ramblers who decide to stray onto private property.

Dogs have different barks for different types of people though. There's a bark for someone walking past the house, there's a bark for someone coming to the front door, a bark for cats, and so on. They don't react the same to every stimulus.

I think many mammalian predators have a certain amount of empathy to be able to predict what the other animal is going to do. Most other predators don't need to rely on it as much as we do though because they have highend senses like smell that gives them a more accurate picture of where the other animal has been and is going.

Dogs have been adapting themselves to living with a highly empathic animal and I think that's been slowly rubbing off on dogs.

You are right that we treat dogs too much like humans, more often than not just not appreciating the differences. At the same time there's the other side of the coin where we constantly underestimate the abilities and value of other animals. Dogs are kind of at the forefront of that flip flopping.

Foxhound38 · 08-06-2016 05:22PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

I saw this on the net and my first reaction was WTF. A dog is brought to the vet to be put down at the end of its working life. It was a 9/11 rescue dog. 15 years later a guard of honour is given to a dog who has no idea of what it means. None of his or her relatives will either. Now first reactions aren't always the best but I want AH to look at this and tell me: have we gone doggone nuts? Has the US gone 9/11 nuts? What do you think of this? Deserved? Appropriate? Lunatics taking over the asylum?

Glad to see the dog being treated with respect. He may not know what's going on, but it's a good sentiment nonetheless and I'm sure his handler appreciates it too.

Two Tone · 08-06-2016 11:22PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Then he's probably VERY sad. In fact, he's likely in the depths of despair. Why do people need to use the word "devastated" for people who have been bereaved or even for people who have experienced a slight emotional setback?

Reasonable term for someone who has experienced a significant loss (to them). I don't think it's reserved for just the likes of natural disasters, it can mean a human emotion too.

Guard of honour for rescue 9/11 rescue dog.

Comments