D-Day

maryishere · 05-06-2016 05:42PM

Bambi wrote: »

So this makes it the greatest feat of arms in history?

Only you mention "feat of arms". What is a feat of arms? A dictionary definition is: display of prowess , usually with a variety of arms, often involving both combats on horseback and on foot.

D-day was the biggest seaborne invasion in history, and something which featured huge involvement from navies, armies and air forces ( not just mainly an army only for example). it is arguable it was a momentus day in history anyway, and one of the milestones of WW2, and helped the allies liberation of most of Western Europe.

beauf wrote: »

I'm not the people in Europe liberated in the west in 1944 would feel the same that D-Day had little effect. It changed Europe in the years since. Who in their right mind would have wanted Russia to take over Europe. Considering post war Russia and Eastern Europe.

Correct, and some of the Irish born and bred soldiers actually walked in to the concentration camps and helped liberate them.

beauf · 05-06-2016 05:55PM

Bambi wrote: »

it would'nt qualify as the greatest feat of arms of world war 2 let alone all time

How you define feat of arms.

an action, or the result of an action, as a feat, you admire it because it is an impressive and difficult achievement.

On that basis for me its a great feat of Arms.

Russian battles seem to lose vastly more men and and resources of their own then even their generous estimates expect.

Dyr · 05-06-2016 06:06PM

maryishere wrote: »

Only you mention "feat of arms".

shaunr68 wrote: »

The greatest feat of arms of all time.

Maybe read the thread before opening yer bake, yeah? Good chap

Defence of Stalingrad
Defence of Moscow
Defence of Monte Cassino
Defence of Malta
Sweeping through an entire continent like a dose of Salt (Germany and Japan both managed it)

To name a few

Comparing that to a landing where you've total air and naval superiority and outnumber the opposition land forces (who are mostly second tier units) by about three to one?

Yeah, not really.

Harry Palmr · 05-06-2016 06:07PM

Dónal wrote: »

That's because D-Day is the 6th of June, not the 5th

To give the OP a break he may have been working with the original Operation Overlord timetable, or was that June 4th?

AbusesToilets · 05-06-2016 06:10PM

Always amazed at how discussions of WW2 devolve into a game of Top Trumps, with people eager to denigrate one side to support theirs.

In terms of operational complexity, I'd recommend reading about Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese islands. Makes the the Normandy invasion seem like a bit of a piss about by comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Harry Palmr · 05-06-2016 06:13PM

Armchair Generals....

Your Face · 05-06-2016 06:17PM

Well ya know somethin' dudes.
The greatest feat of arms was the Hulksters 24inch pythons, brother.
Whatchagonnado?!

Dyr · 05-06-2016 06:18PM

Your Face wrote: »

Well ya know somethin' dudes.
The greatest feat of arms was the Hulksters 24inch pythons, brother.
Whatchagonnado?!

Macho man any day of the week

Your Face · 05-06-2016 06:20PM

Bambi wrote: »

Macho man any day of the week

Agreed.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-06-2016 06:24PM

shaunr68 wrote: »

Comparing Overlord to the Stalingrad campaign there were greater numbers of troops involved in Normandy and in terms of organisation and logistics an amphibious invasion of such a scale to invade and liberate half a continent was an incredible feat. I don't think it is a fair assessment for some (not you personally) to dismiss the campaign as a sideshow or a skirmish.

Half a continent ?

How many Germans were defending France on D-Day ?
How many later on ?
How many were sent into Romania to protect the oil fields ?

Italy had already surrendered on 3rd September 1943 but the fighting went on until the end of the war and the liberation of the south of France was by separate landings in August 1944.

D-Day liberated Belgium, most of France, much of the Netherlands and part of western Germany. Yugoslavs liberated themselves. The Russians liberated parts of Norway and Denmark.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-06-2016 06:29PM

Heroes one and all

I think we can all agree on that

beauf · 05-06-2016 06:40PM

Swinglemon wrote: »

It had an effect on where the Iron curtain lay, Germany had been defeated effectively 2 and a half years prior.

Anyone who died fighting after that might disagree.

beauf · 05-06-2016 06:48PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Always amazed at how discussions of WW2 devolve into a game of Top Trumps, with people eager to denigrate one side to support theirs.

In terms of operational complexity, I'd recommend reading about Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese islands. Makes the the Normandy invasion seem like a bit of a piss about by comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Which is probably why they decided.....err lets not do that....

Iwasfrozen · 05-06-2016 06:48PM

Bambi wrote: »

So this makes it the greatest feat of arms in history?

"well there was a lot of irish involved"

"We have a winner"

As the largest seaborne invasion ever İ think it's fair to say DDay was arguably the greatest feat of arms in history. Russia couldn't have done it.

beauf · 05-06-2016 06:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As the largest seaborne invasion ever İ think it's fair to say DDay was arguably the greatest feat of arms in history. Russia couldn't have done it.

They could have done it. They would have needed 10x more men and tanks though.

..... and then the countries would have needed liberating from the Russian Dictator.

Iwasfrozen · 05-06-2016 06:58PM

beauf wrote: »

They could have done it. They would have needed 10x more men and tanks though.

..... and then the countries would have needed liberating from the Russian Dictator.

I hope every one at least can agree DDay was a good thing and worthy of being celebrated.

Eastern Europe unfortunately wasn't exactly liberated. Out of the frying pan and into the fire of red fascism.

karma_ · 05-06-2016 07:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I hope every one at least can agree DDay was a good thing and worthy of being celebrated.

A good thing? No, a necessary evil, yes. Celebrate? No, commemorate, yes.

beauf · 05-06-2016 07:18PM

Are there any good movies about Eastern front. By the Russians.

karma_ · 05-06-2016 07:19PM

beauf wrote: »

Are there any good movies about Eastern front. By the Russians.

Come and See. Be warned it's pretty bleak.

IvySlayer · 05-06-2016 07:23PM

Ahh time to watch Band of Brothers then!

beauf · 05-06-2016 07:28PM

karma_ wrote: »

Come and See. Be warned it's pretty bleak.

Thanks. They have some good Afghanistan movies. Not seen much on WWII. Anyone seen that white tiger one?

Iwasfrozen · 05-06-2016 07:39PM

karma_ wrote: »

A good thing? No, a necessary evil, yes. Celebrate? No, commemorate, yes.

Why don't you consider it a good thing? Yes people died but their sacrifice saved Western Europe.

shaunr68 · 05-06-2016 08:02PM

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe read the thread before opening yer bake, yeah? Good chap

Defence of Stalingrad
Defence of Moscow
Defence of Monte Cassino
Defence of Malta
Sweeping through an entire continent like a dose of Salt (Germany and Japan both managed it)

To name a few

Comparing that to a landing where you've total air and naval superiority and outnumber the opposition land forces (who are mostly second tier units) by about three to one?

Uranus. No, seriously!

Your first example above is Stalingrad, already discussed in previous posts, perhaps you need to read through the thread yerself. The other three examples of tenacious defences against overwhelming opposition are noteworthy but on nowhere near the same scale.

However consider Operation Uranus as a comparison.

Zhukov had a superiority of 4:1 in men and materiel when he launched the double envelopment of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad. 1.1 million men surrounded a quarter of a million men who were starving, suffering from typhus and frostbite, had no winter clothing and were short on ammunition. The Red Army exposed these weaknesses and broke through on the flanks against poorly trained and equipped Romanian and Italian divisions who possessed no anti tank guns and had to face an onslaught of Soviet armour.

To ensure success you employ overwhelming force and hit the enemy where he is vulnerable.

Skylinehead · 05-06-2016 08:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As the largest seaborne invasion ever İ think it's fair to say DDay was arguably the greatest feat of arms in history. Russia couldn't have done it.

More willy waving, this time from the other side. No, the Russians couldn't have done it - they didn't have much of a navy to start with. Could the Americans/British do what the Russians did? Also no.

Heckler · 05-06-2016 08:47PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

To give the OP a break he may have been working with the original Operation Overlord timetable, or was that June 4th?

Haha. Serious Palmface on getting this one wrong. Mea culpa.

05-06-2016 08:59PM

indioblack wrote: »

No, they did not.
The Soviet Union was at war with Germany when Germany invaded Russia.

Actually, not that is should make any difference but it wasn't. Germany declared war on the USSR on 22 June 1941, the same day when Operation Barbarossa commenced/its invasion of Russia began.

German declaration of war on the USSR, 22 June 1941

The late arrival of the US into the war (11 December 1941), having recognised Vichy France as the legitimate government of France prior to that (but shhh), is only matched in brazenness by its even later arrival into fighting the war in Europe (July 1943), some five months after (and many millions dead later) the Russians had defeated the Germans at Stalingrad and it was clear the Germans were now on the run.

Only in the propaganda of the Anglo world is the British and US effort in "defeating Nazism" in WW II on a par with the total war and deaths of tens of millions that happened on the Eastern Front. There is no comparison, no matter how much the British media drone on as if Britain had been the key country in defeating Hitler.

buried · 05-06-2016 09:00PM

The Daily Telegraph crossword codename security threat is a fascinating story to go along with the event

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Daily_Telegraph_crossword_security_alarm

indioblack · 05-06-2016 09:15PM

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe read the thread before opening yer bake, yeah? Good chap

Defence of Stalingrad
Defence of Moscow
Defence of Monte Cassino
Defence of Malta
Sweeping through an entire continent like a dose of Salt (Germany and Japan both managed it)

To name a few

Comparing that to a landing where you've total air and naval superiority and outnumber the opposition land forces (who are mostly second tier units) by about three to one?

Yeah, not really.

The word that springs to mind is balance. Achieving your aims without weeks of complete slaughter. If you're Stalin and you don't give a toss about people, [and you've a large supply of people as potential combatants], you can achieve much.
With D-Day you have almost complete control of the air and sea, blinding your opponent where possible, operations to deceive your opponent as to your true intentions. You get your forces ashore relatively safely, and reinforce quickly over the next few days, linking up the landing beaches, and reaching a point. [hopefully], where you can't be pushed back into the sea.
You build up your forces, supplies and equipment - all from the sea.
You reinforce and resupply by sea faster than your opponent can by land.
You push forward, in this case trying to capture Caen. Although failing to do so quickly, your opponent moves his armour, [some from Russia], to stop you.
Instead of building a force of armoured divisions to drive the British and Canadians back the Germans are forced to use them defensively - and they are slowly burnt away.
Eventually the Americans break out - by now the Germans are in no position to defend everywhere.
It was a considerable effort from it's inception - and an important achievement.
Amongst the list you mentioned you could have added Leningrad.
It seems to get overlooked - even Stalin wasn't particularly interested in it when the siege was lifted.

05-06-2016 09:19PM

beauf wrote: »

Are there any good movies about Eastern front. By the Russians.

Andrei Tarkovsky's Ivan's Childhood (1962) is a classic of world cinema. The story is told from the perspective of a Russian child named Ivan who acts as a scout for the Russian military on the Eastern Front. You can watch it for free on YouTube but, like Gillo Pontecorvo's Battle of Algiers (1966), it's one of the few exceptional films on war that I bothered to buy.

Stalingrad, the documentary, is by far the best documentary on WW II. This one. Compelling stuff, with plenty of interviews with German and Russian participants. Stories on cannibalism, life in the gulags for the "lucky" Germans who were not killed, and what happened many Germans on the train back to Germany in the 1950s covered. Definitely not made from the Anglo-American perspective.

The Rape of Lucretia · 05-06-2016 09:20PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Only if you look at it through a Western lens. Battle of Stalingrad was the ultimate WW2 battle and the Soviet victory was the greatest feat and was the beginning of the end of the Nazis in the war. By every measure (numbers involved, casualties, brutality) Stalingrad alone was orders of magnitude larger than D-day and the whole Normandy / Western Europe Campaign.

Yes, the beginning of the end was Stalingrad, and the question was certainly when, rather than if, for the end of the Third Reich.

Nevertheless, D-day was an extraordinary, unprecedented, still to be exceeded, sea to land invasion, requiring incredible coordination of sea, air, and land forces, preparation, secrecy, technological invention specifically for the event, logistics, feint and deception, intelligence, strategy, training and preparation, to carry such forces across the English channel in a concentrated force, mount a beachhead assault, gain a secure foothold in Normandy, and bring quickly in the resources to mount a sustained campaign in northern France.
A truly remarkable human and military undertaking, quite apart from its symbolism as the regaining of a foothold in France following Dunkirk, and the opening of another front against Mr. Hitler's boys.

D-Day

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