D-Day

Heckler

D-Day and nothing on news sites. Too concerned about what some twitter twat is wearing. Been to the beaches and its a sobering experience.

It was an outstanding feat of arms and if it didn't happen the world would be a different place today.

Not going to be long before the last veterans of WW2 are gone.

A generation made some serious sacrifices that I couldn't see happening with the current crop of self obsessed selfie kids.

That's because D-Day is the 6th of June, not the 5th

Winterlong

More a VE day man myself.

The King of Moo

Heckler wrote: »

D-Day and nothing on news sites. Too concerned about what some twitter twat is wearing. Been to the beaches and its a sobering experience.

It was an outstanding feat of arms and if it didn't happen the world would be a different place today.

Not going to be long before the last veterans of WW2 are gone.

A generation made some serious sacrifices that I couldn't see happening with the current crop of self obsessed selfie kids.

Ssh, we don't want the Germans to know!

Heckler

Dónal wrote: »

That's because D-Day is the 6th of June, not the 5th

Oops. So it was. Now I feel like silly.....

Still won't hear much about it tomorrow though. a defining moment of the 20th century thats overlooked as the years go by

kneemos

Heckler wrote: »

Oops. So it was. Now I feel like silly.....

Still won't hear much about it tomorrow though. a defining moment of the 20th century thats overlooked as the years go by

The Russians took the hit for Europe.D day was a skirmish.

Ardennes1944

If you've ever been to Normandy around D-Day anniversary time, or in fact most times of the year, you will see it is anything but forgotten.

Heckler

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

If you've ever been to Normandy around D-Day anniversary time, or in fact most times of the year, you will see it is anything but forgotten.

I have been a few times. Saint Mere Eglise etc. I was there a few years ago when they unveiled the sculpture of Dick Winters. All of Normandy is amazing and they really do celebrate it. I meant outside of France there might be a small news segment.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Heckler wrote: »

Oops. So it was. Now I feel like silly.....

Still won't hear much about it tomorrow though. a defining moment of the 20th century thats overlooked as the years go by

I love your powers of future sight! BBC advertised a piece on it this morning. But, you were determined to bemoan it's lack of commemoration , so carry on...

shaunr68

The greatest feat of arms of all time. Granted as some posters have glibly stated, the course of the war was not in doubt by this stage but the post-war complexion of an entire continent very much was, and without it we might have grown up with the Iron Curtain hanging off the coast outside Lisbon

I find Eisenhower's draft letter in case of failure to be particularly chilling, since if the note had ever been issued my mother might well have never met her father.

"Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available. The troops, the air and the navy did all that bravery and devotion to duly could do. If any blame or fault is attached to the attempt it is mine alone."

Alf Stewart.

Giving me a good excuse to watch shaving Ryan's privates again.

namloc1980

shaunr68 wrote: »

The greatest feat of arms of all time. Granted as some posters have glibly stated, the course of the war was not in doubt by this stage but the post-war complexion of an entire continent very much was, and without it we might have grown up with the Iron Curtain hanging off the coast outside Lisbon

I find Eisenhower's draft letter in case of failure to be particularly chilling, since if the note had ever been issued my mother might well have never met her father.

"Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available. The troops, the air and the navy did all that bravery and devotion to duly could do. If any blame or fault is attached to the attempt it is mine alone."

Only if you look at it through a Western lens. Battle of Stalingrad was the ultimate WW2 battle and the Soviet victory was the greatest feat and was the beginning of the end of the Nazis in the war. By every measure (numbers involved, casualties, brutality) Stalingrad alone was orders of magnitude larger than D-day and the whole Normandy / Western Europe Campaign.

FortySeven

Britain provided the time.
America provided the money.
Russia provided the blood.

humberklog

FortySeven wrote: »

Britain provided the time.
America provided the money.
Russia provided the blood.

Who provided the OP with a calender?

petrolcan

Heckler wrote: »

Oops. So it was. Now I feel like silly.....

Still won't hear much about it tomorrow though. a defining moment of the 20th century thats overlooked as the years go by

Can you tell me the lotto numbers? You seem to be able to see into the future!

Superhorse

kneemos wrote: »

The Russians took the hit for Europe.D day was a skirmish.

Something that was conveniently forgot because of the agenda of big bad Russian that had to be set. Russia saved Europe.

FortySeven

Superhorse wrote: »

Something that was conveniently forgot because of the agenda of big bad Russian that had to be set. Russia saved Europe.

Parts of it. It subjugated large swathes too. We forget too easily that Poland was not invaded by Germany alone. Russia took the east. The ribbentrop/Molotov pact was the real cause of ww2 in my opinion. It gave Hitler a green light.

Was inevitable anyway with Hitler's expansionary vision but that secret deal gave him some kind of legitimacy.

kneemos

The success of the German army is quiet astounding in fairness.To romp across Europe and advance so far into Russia was remarkable.
If their leader hadn't been such a head banger God knows they could have done.

seamus

Heckler wrote: »

Still won't hear much about it tomorrow though. a defining moment of the 20th century thats overlooked as the years go by

And so it must be. Many defining battles in the history of humanity now go unheeded and unremembered.
Such is the march of time. In 200 years D-Day will see little more than 50 great great great grandchildren standing on a beach in France holding a short and somewhat hollow ceremony. 200 years after that, the beach will be empty on 6th June.

"Now every April I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me
I see my old comrades, how proudly they march
Reliving their dreams of past glories
I see the old men all tired, stiff and worn
Those weary old heroes of a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask myself the same question

And the band plays Waltzing Matilda
And the old men still answer the call
But year after year, their numbers get fewer
Someday, no one will march there at all"

Skylinehead

kneemos wrote: »

The Russians took the hit for Europe.D day was a skirmish.

First time I ever heard of a battle of over 200k men described as a skirmish. I never got why people insist on making WW2 so black and white - "America saved the world" "No Russia did", like the argument was that simple.

Capt'n Midnight

shaunr68 wrote: »

The greatest feat of arms of all time.

Depends.
Greatest feat of amphibious landings. Repeated at Inchon later.

But a sideshow compared to Kursk a year earlier which demonstrated to even the diehard fanatics that it was game over.

Though in a parallel to Yamamoto's "I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success" Todt* was asking Hitler to negotiate peace as early as November 1941. Or you could use the other Yamamoto "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.[" December 1941 was when the Russians counter attacked at Moscow. And the USA entered the war.

The battles of Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin , Kiev , Budapest, Dnieper , Narva all had more casualties than either the UK or US had during the entire war. Make no mistake 90% of German army casualties did not occur in Norway, or Western Europe or Southern Europe or Africa or Greece , the Eastern Front was where the fighting was. And where some of the worst atrocities took place. Roughly 3 million Russian PoW's died in captivity in the first winter. A faster death rate than even in the later Holocaust.


The Soviet invasion of Manchuria was Blitzkrieg on a new scale. They were flying in fuel to the advance units. The only reason South Korea exists is that Japan surrendered so quickly.



*http://www.globalresearch.ca/70-years-ago-december-1941-turning-point-of-world-war-ii/28059
And shortly before the end of November, Armament Minister Fritz Todt asked Hitler to find a diplomatic way out of the war, since purely militarily as well as industrially it was as good as lost

maryishere

Skylinehead wrote: »

I never got why people insist on making WW2 so black and white - "America saved the world" "No Russia did, like the argument was that simple.

Well said. Some would be unaware even that there were Irishmen on the Arctic convoys which helped Russia in her hour of need. There were 78 convoys from the UK to Russia bringing arms and supplies, from August 1941 until May 1945, sailing via several seas of the Atlantic and Arctic oceans. About 1400 merchant ships delivered essential supplies to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease program, escorted by ships of the Royal Navy, Royal Canadian Navy, and the U.S. Navy. Eighty-five merchant vessels and 16 Royal Navy warships (two cruisers, six destroyers, eight other escort ships) were lost. On those 101 ships lost were more than a few Irishmen. Brave men, and some horrifically cold dangerous conditions.

Gatling

I'd wonder how accurate soviet deaths figures are for ww2 especially with the whole post ww2 occupation of eastern Europe and the excuses where soviets mass militarisation and nuclear weapons programmes were based off the idea Oh you can't blame them after what happened in ww2 even up to very recently

shaunr68

namloc1980 wrote: »

Only if you look at it through a Western lens. Battle of Stalingrad was the ultimate WW2 battle and the Soviet victory was the greatest feat and was the beginning of the end of the Nazis in the war. By every measure (numbers involved, casualties, brutality) Stalingrad alone was orders of magnitude larger than D-day and the whole Normandy / Western Europe Campaign.

Having climbed the Mamaev Kurgan at Volgograd just over a year ago I would tend to agree with you to a point. The encirclement of the Sixth Army trapping them in Stalingrad was a master stroke and there is no question that the Nazis were primarily defeated on the Eastern Front, the steamroller was only going in one direction after 1943. However I would not agree that Stalingrad was orders of magnitude larger. Comparing Overlord to the Stalingrad campaign there were greater numbers of troops involved in Normandy and in terms of organisation and logistics an amphibious invasion of such a scale to invade and liberate half a continent was an incredible feat. I don't think it is a fair assessment for some (not you personally) to dismiss the campaign as a sideshow or a skirmish.

indioblack

kneemos wrote: »

The Russians took the hit for Europe.D day was a skirmish.

No, they did not.
The Soviet Union was at war with Germany when Germany invaded Russia.
My old man was there a few days after the "skirmish" on D-Day - with 43rd Division.
He lasted 12 days. Wounded by shrapnel, shot and crippled in one arm - I've read that casualties in infantry battalions were high.

Sand

shaunr68 wrote: »

Having climbed the Mamaev Kurgan at Volgograd just over a year ago I would tend to agree with you to a point. The encirclement of the Sixth Army trapping them in Stalingrad was a master stroke and there is no question that the Nazis were primarily defeated on the Eastern Front, the steamroller was only going in one direction after 1943. However I would not agree that Stalingrad was orders of magnitude larger. Comparing Overlord to the Stalingrad campaign there were greater numbers of troops involved in Normandy and in terms of organisation and logistics an amphibious invasion of such a scale to invade and liberate half a continent was an incredible feat. I don't think it is a fair assessment for some (not you personally) to dismiss the campaign as a sideshow or a skirmish.

The reality is an operation like Overlord was simply far beyond the capability of the Soviet Union. Landing, supplying and leading 2,000,000 men with their vehicles and equipment in an amphibious attack on German defences is something that is completely underestimated by those biased to the Eastern front. The Allies did it whilst simultaneously fighting in Italy, the Atlantic, the skies over Germany and waging a huge war against the Japanese on the other side of the world.

WarZ

We never hear anything about The Battle for Stalingrad on August 2nd and that event played a much more decisive role in defeating Germany than D-Day.

In fact it is widely accepted that Germany was already defeated by D-Day and that the D-Day landings had little effect on the defeat of Nazi Germany. The allies didn't land on Normandy for noble reasons, they landed on Normandy because they wanted to share in the spoils of war and didn't want Russia to reap the rewards from their sacrifices.

There's a reason the western allies flapped about in Italy, North Africa and the Middle East for most of the war while Russia took on most of the German army. They wanted Russia to do the hard work and to be weakened to such a point that the British and the Americans were able to dictate the peace.

Dyr

shaunr68 wrote: »

The greatest feat of arms of all time. Granted as some posters have glibly stated, the course of the war was not in doubt by this stage but the post-war complexion of an entire continent very much was, and without it we might have grown up with the Iron Curtain hanging off the coast outside Lisbon

it would'nt qualify as the greatest feat of arms of world war 2 let alone all time

maryishere

Bambi wrote: »

it would'nt qualify as the greatest feat of arms of world war 2 let alone all time

It actually was the largest seaborne invasion in history. The operation began the liberation of Nazi-occupied northwestern Europe. Thousands of Irish took part in it.

Dyr

maryishere wrote: »

It actually was the largest seaborne invasion in history. The operation began the liberation of Nazi-occupied northwestern Europe. Thousands of Irish took part in it.

So this makes it the greatest feat of arms in history?

"well there was a lot of irish involved"

"We have a winner"

beauf

I'm not sure the people in Europe liberated in the west in 1944 would feel the same that D-Day had little effect. It changed Europe in the years since. Who in their right mind would have wanted Russia to take over Europe. Considering post war Russia and Eastern Europe.

maryishere

Bambi wrote: »

So this makes it the greatest feat of arms in history?

Only you mention "feat of arms". What is a feat of arms? A dictionary definition is: display of prowess , usually with a variety of arms, often involving both combats on horseback and on foot.

D-day was the biggest seaborne invasion in history, and something which featured huge involvement from navies, armies and air forces ( not just mainly an army only for example). it is arguable it was a momentus day in history anyway, and one of the milestones of WW2, and helped the allies liberation of most of Western Europe.

beauf wrote: »

I'm not the people in Europe liberated in the west in 1944 would feel the same that D-Day had little effect. It changed Europe in the years since. Who in their right mind would have wanted Russia to take over Europe. Considering post war Russia and Eastern Europe.

Correct, and some of the Irish born and bred soldiers actually walked in to the concentration camps and helped liberate them.

beauf

Bambi wrote: »

it would'nt qualify as the greatest feat of arms of world war 2 let alone all time

How you define feat of arms.

an action, or the result of an action, as a feat, you admire it because it is an impressive and difficult achievement.

On that basis for me its a great feat of Arms.

Russian battles seem to lose vastly more men and and resources of their own then even their generous estimates expect.

Dyr

maryishere wrote: »

Only you mention "feat of arms".

shaunr68 wrote: »

The greatest feat of arms of all time.

Maybe read the thread before opening yer bake, yeah? Good chap

Defence of Stalingrad
Defence of Moscow
Defence of Monte Cassino
Defence of Malta
Sweeping through an entire continent like a dose of Salt (Germany and Japan both managed it)

To name a few


Comparing that to a landing where you've total air and naval superiority and outnumber the opposition land forces (who are mostly second tier units) by about three to one?

Yeah, not really.

Harry Palmr

Dónal wrote: »

That's because D-Day is the 6th of June, not the 5th

To give the OP a break he may have been working with the original Operation Overlord timetable, or was that June 4th?

AbusesToilets

Always amazed at how discussions of WW2 devolve into a game of Top Trumps, with people eager to denigrate one side to support theirs.

In terms of operational complexity, I'd recommend reading about Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese islands. Makes the the Normandy invasion seem like a bit of a piss about by comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Harry Palmr

Armchair Generals....

Your Face

Well ya know somethin' dudes.
The greatest feat of arms was the Hulksters 24inch pythons, brother.
Whatchagonnado?!

Dyr

Your Face wrote: »

Well ya know somethin' dudes.
The greatest feat of arms was the Hulksters 24inch pythons, brother.
Whatchagonnado?!

Macho man any day of the week

Your Face

Bambi wrote: »

Macho man any day of the week

Agreed.

Capt'n Midnight

shaunr68 wrote: »

Comparing Overlord to the Stalingrad campaign there were greater numbers of troops involved in Normandy and in terms of organisation and logistics an amphibious invasion of such a scale to invade and liberate half a continent was an incredible feat. I don't think it is a fair assessment for some (not you personally) to dismiss the campaign as a sideshow or a skirmish.

Half a continent ?

How many Germans were defending France on D-Day ?
How many later on ?
How many were sent into Romania to protect the oil fields ?

Italy had already surrendered on 3rd September 1943 but the fighting went on until the end of the war and the liberation of the south of France was by separate landings in August 1944.

D-Day liberated Belgium, most of France, much of the Netherlands and part of western Germany. Yugoslavs liberated themselves. The Russians liberated parts of Norway and Denmark.

SEPT 23 1989

Heroes one and all

I think we can all agree on that

beauf

Swinglemon wrote: »

It had an effect on where the Iron curtain lay, Germany had been defeated effectively 2 and a half years prior.

Anyone who died fighting after that might disagree.

beauf

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Always amazed at how discussions of WW2 devolve into a game of Top Trumps, with people eager to denigrate one side to support theirs.

In terms of operational complexity, I'd recommend reading about Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of the Japanese islands. Makes the the Normandy invasion seem like a bit of a piss about by comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Which is probably why they decided.....err lets not do that....

Iwasfrozen

Bambi wrote: »

So this makes it the greatest feat of arms in history?

"well there was a lot of irish involved"

"We have a winner"

As the largest seaborne invasion ever İ think it's fair to say DDay was arguably the greatest feat of arms in history. Russia couldn't have done it.

beauf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As the largest seaborne invasion ever İ think it's fair to say DDay was arguably the greatest feat of arms in history. Russia couldn't have done it.

They could have done it. They would have needed 10x more men and tanks though.

..... and then the countries would have needed liberating from the Russian Dictator.

Iwasfrozen

beauf wrote: »

They could have done it. They would have needed 10x more men and tanks though.

..... and then the countries would have needed liberating from the Russian Dictator.

I hope every one at least can agree DDay was a good thing and worthy of being celebrated.

Eastern Europe unfortunately wasn't exactly liberated. Out of the frying pan and into the fire of red fascism.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I hope every one at least can agree DDay was a good thing and worthy of being celebrated.

A good thing? No, a necessary evil, yes. Celebrate? No, commemorate, yes.

beauf

Are there any good movies about Eastern front. By the Russians.

karma_

beauf wrote: »

Are there any good movies about Eastern front. By the Russians.

Come and See. Be warned it's pretty bleak.

IvySlayer

Ahh time to watch Band of Brothers then!