Stallions

ronsh2000 · 04-05-2016 01:48PM

sting60 wrote: »

As I said when he went to stud and stand by it I firmly believe Sea The Stars will be recognised as a National hunt sire eventually.

Sadler's Wells was quite a good National Hunt sire. So was Montjeu. Given that Sea The Stars gets plenty of middle distance types who improve with age and could stay NH distances, there's no reason he won't be as well.

tryfix · 15-05-2016 01:57PM

Sea The Stars is having another good season and this year his colts are looking like they have strength in depth. Mekthaal looked like a possible Arc winner when slamming the field in the Prix Hocquart today.

Have to say the Zoffany's as 3yos are a bit puzzling, they seem to be able to run with credit in the Classic Trials without looking up to winning at that level.

Johner · 16-05-2016 10:38AM

I got a nice colt foal out of Dylan Thomas this year.

The aul lad used Sageburg and was very pleased with him. Heard he's doing very well in France recently.

famagusta · 16-05-2016 11:49AM

We brought a national hunt mare to Sageburg a couple of weeks ago. nice stallion alright. Hes one of the leading sires of 2yos in france this year. he could be a really good dual sire.

To TheTorment from the last page,

You were asking about a couple of stallions. A friend of mine has a Morozov at home, he is one of the best moving horses i have ever seen, lovely yearling. They are selling ok a at the sales, only doing ok on the track but not a lot of runners.

As for Craigsteel, the point to point lads are made for these, they jump and stay. he's the fifth leading sire of pointers i think this year.

tatoo · 16-05-2016 03:40PM

I think Morozov is doing extremely well with his track runners, limited in numbers that they are, his winners to runners percentage is exceptionally high at 48%,
All he really needs is to unearth a good Saturday horse to lead the way.

Peintre Celebre · 16-05-2016 08:31PM

Anyone know where strategic Prince is, Thewayyouare is doing quite good for one that would have got **** all. Had a runner up in a gr.2 in France

Johner · 16-05-2016 10:02PM

tryfix wrote: »

Sea The Stars is having another good season and this year his colts are looking like they have strength in depth. Mekthaal looked like a possible Arc winner when slamming the field in the Prix Hocquart today.

Have to say the Zoffany's as 3yos are a bit puzzling, they seem to be able to run with credit in the Classic Trials without looking up to winning at that level.

Knife Edge won the German 2000 guineas today. That's a Group 2 though and a poor race.

tryfix · 16-05-2016 10:38PM

Johner wrote: »

Knife Edge won the German 2000 guineas today. That's a Group 2 though and a poor race.

A good filip anyway for him. They've still got enough faith in Foundation to expect him to win the French Derby ( can't see it myself ) and that Hugo Palmer mare is a decent prospect.

I'm not sure, but his stock don't look to be from top broodmares but the trainers keep aiming very high with them. I'd like to see how he'd work with all those Galileo mares Coolmore have. He's probably capable of siring Derby horses if he's mated with the right mares.

Robson99 · 16-05-2016 10:42PM

Johner wrote: »

I got a nice colt foal out of Dylan Thomas this year.

The aul lad used Sageburg and was very pleased with him. Heard he's doing very well in France recently.

Have a real nice Dylan Thomas yearling. Big scopy good walking individual.
Another underrated stallion that is throwing nice quality from limited numbers is Darsi. Think a good winner or two would kick him off

Lt Dan · 17-05-2016 04:55PM

Lads, I hope some of ye would help an auld novice on this. I am pig ignorant as to what would make great stallion etc. I note that some people are able to predict or give a view as to who may or may not cut it as a good stallion in either flat or national hunt. Saying that, I am growing more interested in that side of things now, especially when the internet makes it easier to keep track on what horses are children of certain horses one might have a gra for. (Racing post have a great little site for that)

I was well aware of how prolific horses like King Theatre, Presenting and Oscar were at National Hunt, and am well aware of who Galileo the stallion/ grand sire/dame sire is. I note that Beat Hollow is turning into an interesting stallion in both codes. I also note that some horses like even say, Cape Cross or even mares like say Kind (or even some unraced broadmares) who were good but not great legends of the sport have become important in the breeding industry. I also note some great horses on the track have flopped.

What makes it easy to predict who will do well or not? Obviously one looks that their own bred and how their first crops go. Someone said Sea The Stars might make a great NH horse, and a few of them have done alright hurdling. Do people look at their kids size and how they developed later. I noted at the paddocks of races how big some STS horses are for their age.

I said · 22-05-2016 06:30PM

What or how did fast company end up standing in England this year?

tryfix · 23-05-2016 12:06AM

I said wrote: »

What or how did fast company end up standing in England this year?

From what I can decipher Overbury stud were looking for a proven speedy stallion to service the English market and Darley who own Fast Company AFAIK transferred him from Rathasker to Overbury. Don't know what the deal between Darley and Rathasker was regarding Fast Company standing there but I think Darley have owned Fast Company since they bought him as a 2yo.

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/fast-company-on-the-move-to-overbury-stud/1983811/

I said · 27-05-2016 05:23PM

https://www.facebook.com/racingpostbloodstockofficial/posts/1002115249841618
Moving again

tryfix · 03-06-2016 07:07PM

While Minding in 1st place was probably wrapping up the sires title for Galileo the performances of the Zoffany filly Architecture in 2nd and the Canford Cliff filly Harlequeen in 3rd were giving last year's leading freshmen sires some long term credibility.

The Zoffany's have looked like Gp1 class horses without being able to hit the bar and yet again Architecture's 2nd has another Zoffany falling short at the highest level. With Gosden's Foundation favourite for the Prix Du Jockey club he gets another shot at taking a Gp1 on Sunday. If they get behind this stallion he's going to produce bucketloads of Classic horses over his career

Robson99 · 03-06-2016 10:17PM

liverbear wrote: »

What national hunt sires are the biggest or throw the biggest foals. I have a well bred mare that is on the small side.

Arctic Cosmos is a fine stamp of a horse and throwing good foals. Great walker

tryfix · 29-08-2016 12:29AM

Born To Sea's first pattern winner Sea Of Grace shouldn't go without mention, I reckon that's the beginning of a very lucrative future for Born To Sea at stud. He's at €10k now and that's likely to rise substantially over the next few years.

tryfix · 13-09-2016 01:19PM

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

Zhukova and Intricately both winning over the weekend. Fastnet Rock x Galileo proving to be very successful. Thoughts?

The nick has produced 2 Gp 1 winners ( Qualify and Intricately ) and the promising Gp2 winning juvenile Rivet. That ability to produce top 2yos and Classic horses would suit Coolmore and their legion of Galileo broodmares very well. If you look at Zhukova she's very much like a Dubawi, didn't run till 3 and has kept progressing through the ranks. The likes of her and most of the Dubawi's we've seen are not exactly the types that Coolmore want to produce for their stallion farms but who could turn down such fine animals.

Hopefully we'll see plenty of the better Coolmore mares heading Fastnet Rock's way, the stallion deserves that kind of support. He's a little like his own sire Danehill in his final years at Coolmore when he was churning out middle distance types rather than the speedy 2yos of his early days.

Just to add, ye can seemingly cross Galileo with anything and get good results. Yesterday an inbreeding experiment called Musaanada ( by Sea The Stars x Gaze ( Galileo ) won a 12f race on the all weather on his debut.

Hope you don't mind, I'm going to cross post this reply on the Stallions thread to breathe a little life into that thread.

Wicklow Brave · 13-09-2016 06:31PM

tryfix wrote: »

The nick has produced 2 Gp 1 winners ( Qualify and Intricately ) and the promising Gp2 winning juvenile Rivet. That ability to produce top 2yos and Classic horses would suit Coolmore and their legion of Galileo broodmares very well. If you look at Zhukova she's very much like a Dubawi, didn't run till 3 and has kept progressing through the ranks. The likes of her and most of the Dubawi's we've seen are not exactly the types that Coolmore want to produce for their stallion farms but who could turn down such fine animals.

Hopefully we'll see plenty of the better Coolmore mares heading Fastnet Rock's way, the stallion deserves that kind of support. He's a little like his own sire Danehill in his final years at Coolmore when he was churning out middle distance types rather than the speedy 2yos of his early days.

Just to add, ye can seemingly cross Galileo with anything and get good results. Yesterday an inbreeding experiment called Musaanada ( by Sea The Stars x Gaze ( Galileo ) won a 12f race on the all weather on his debut.

Yeah I was thinking about the likes of Found, Minding, Alice Springs and what stallions would cover them. Fastnet Rock would be an obvious one. Could prove very fruitful.

tryfix · 13-09-2016 08:12PM

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking about the likes of Found, Minding, Alice Springs and what stallions would cover them. Fastnet Rock would be an obvious one. Could prove very fruitful.

He's worth a shot anyway, I'd be looking for a more speedy sire than him if it was up to me who they went to but I suppose they'd be well matched with him to produce something similar to themselves again.

Zoffany has done enough to be given a chance with them, he produces athletic and often precocious stock which would be improved on by the honesty of effort that characterises the Galileo stock. 'Twould be a blue hen line to blue hen line match that could work one way or the other. Think he has only one half decent runner out of a Galileo to his name.

Canford Cliffs has a fair amount of runners out of Galileo mares, he fits the bill as an outcross but I don't think he has produced anything classy enough to justify getting the top end Galileo mares sent his way.

War Front is working well with the Galileo mares, but they could really do with having their own Top Class War Front stallion in Ireland. Air Force Blue may have flopped as a 3 yo but he could have a great future ahead of him at stud if he gets the chance to prove himself.

Old Danehill Dancer is badly missed now that the potency of the Galileo x Danehill Dancer nick has been shown to be so good. Can't see anything to replace Danehill Dancer at Coolmore ATM. Having said that, Power has been producing the right kind of stock to make him a potentiality new Danehill Dancer.

Lt Dan · 14-09-2016 03:00AM

tryfix wrote: »

He's worth a shot anyway, I'd be looking for a more speedy sire than him if it was up to me who they went to but I suppose they'd be well matched with him to produce something similar to themselves again.

Zoffany has done enough to be given a chance with them, he produces athletic and often precocious stock which would be improved on by the honesty of effort that characterises the Galileo stock. 'Twould be a blue hen line to blue hen line match that could work one way or the other. Think he has only one half decent runner out of a Galileo to his name.

Canford Cliffs has a fair amount of runners out of Galileo mares, he fits the bill as an outcross but I don't think he has produced anything classy enough to justify getting the top end Galileo mares sent his way.

War Front is working well with the Galileo mares, but they could really do with having their own Top Class War Front stallion in Ireland. Air Force Blue may have flopped as a 3 yo but he could have a great future ahead of him at stud if he gets the chance to prove himself.

Old Danehill Dancer is badly missed now that the potency of the Galileo x Danehill Dancer nick has been shown to be so good. Can't see anything to replace Danehill Dancer at Coolmore ATM. Having said that, Power has been producing the right kind of stock to make him a potentiality new Danehill Dancer.

Sounds like a ridiculous question, but who are the mares are with Coolmore? I assume most of the classic winning fillies and multiple group 1 winners like Lillie Langtry, Misty for Me.. who is their best mare? racing post don't give free access to details of the mares' kids unlike the stallions. I know they spent about 6 million quid on the 2013 Irish Oaks headbanger, who else did they buy?

tryfix · 14-09-2016 07:06PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Sounds like a ridiculous question, but who are the mares are with Coolmore? I assume most of the classic winning fillies and multiple group 1 winners like Lillie Langtry, Misty for Me.. who is their best mare? racing post don't give free access to details of the mares' kids unlike the stallions. I know they spent about 6 million quid on the 2013 Irish Oaks headbanger, who else did they buy?

It's very hard to find a list of Coolmore's broodmares, there are so many convolutions between all the different entities and what's retained and what's sold that you'd have to be an insider to understand how it all works. I'd assume a lot of their superior racing stock are kept and their mothers purchased or retained, but you'll often see a really nicely bred Coolmore filly or mare who's be sold on in some deal or other when you'd imagine they'd be too precious to let go. It's a high volume game for them and that involves them paying plenty for the produce of their own stallions at auction so they're not best served by hogging all their own choice broodmare prospects when there's business and working relationships to be nurtured.

If you want to find a list of the produce of a particular broodmare then go to Pedigreequery.com and do a pedigree search for the mare, then click on the reports drop down menu and select progeny and search again with progeny as the filter and a list of the mares foals will pop up. Below is a link to the list of progeny of Coolmore's Rumplestiltskin.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/rumplestiltskin2

They went on a big buying spree a few years ago with a lot of million pound/euro/dollar broodmare/broodmare prospects purchased. They bought Sumora the Dam of Maybe for 2.4 million.

Lt Dan · 15-09-2016 01:51PM

tryfix wrote: »

It's very hard to find a list of Coolmore's broodmares, there are so many convolutions between all the different entities and what's retained and what's sold that you'd have to be an insider to understand how it all works. I'd assume a lot of their superior racing stock are kept and their mothers purchased or retained, but you'll often see a really nicely bred Coolmore filly or mare who's be sold on in some deal or other when you'd imagine they'd be too precious to let go. It's a high volume game for them and that involves them paying plenty for the produce of their own stallions at auction so they're not best served by hogging all their own choice broodmare prospects when there's business and working relationships to be nurtured.

If you want to find a list of the produce of a particular broodmare then go to Pedigreequery.com and do a pedigree search for the mare, then click on the reports drop down menu and select progeny and search again with progeny as the filter and a list of the mares foals will pop up. Below is a link to the list of progeny of Coolmore's Rumplestiltskin.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/rumplestiltskin2

They went on a big buying spree a few years ago with a lot of million pound/euro/dollar broodmare/broodmare prospects purchased. They bought Sumora the Dam of Maybe for 2.4 million.

BRILLIANT

I can now check on horses like Conduit and Workforce who were sold to Japan, or my two favourite horses , Twice Over and Phoenix Tower who were sold to South Africa and India respectively.

tryfix · 15-09-2016 04:51PM

I see MV Magnier paid $3 million for a Scat Daddy colt who's a half brother to Beholder and to Into Mischief ( great young sire ).

Fuppin hell, that's mad money.

Lt Dan · 16-09-2016 10:46AM

tryfix wrote: »

I see MV Magnier paid $3 million for a Scat Daddy colt who's a half brother to Beholder and to Into Mischief ( great young sire ).

Fuppin hell, that's mad money.

Sure that is spare change for those boyos.

Anyone think of out and out financial mess ups they got themselves into buying purchasing a horse for racing or simply for breeding, utter failures . All owner-breeders go through this, so they can't be immune to dud decisions (or unlucky ones) just they are good keeping it quiet. I know the 2013 Irish Oaks filly did nothing after that win, but she was bought for breeding.

How do they make money from sending Galileo to outside mares out of what 250,000-350,000 quid a pop, and then actually spending up to a million for that colt/filly in the sales? Volume? Sounds a bit mad to be spending money on practically your own produce, as you might have your own mares that can do the job. Obviously, it works for them,gloriously. Juddmonte tend to keep things in house, using their impressive line of mares but obviously use outside sires

Can someone explain , the ins and outs of that side of the business.

bellybuster12 · 16-09-2016 11:18AM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Sure that is spare change for those boyos.

Anyone think of out and out financial mess ups they got themselves into buying purchasing a horse for racing or simply for breeding, utter failures . All owner-breeders go through this, so they can't be immune to dud decisions (or unlucky ones) just they are good keeping it quiet. I know the 2013 Irish Oaks filly did nothing after that win, but she was bought for breeding.

How do they make money from sending Galileo to outside mares out of what 250,000-350,000 quid a pop, and then actually spending up to a million for that colt/filly in the sales? Volume? Sounds a bit mad to be spending money on practically your own produce, as you might have your own mares that can do the job. Obviously, it works for them,gloriously. Juddmonte tend to keep things in house, using their impressive line of mares but obviously use outside sires

Can someone explain , the ins and outs of that side of the business.

"Foal share" where by they don't charge the breeder the stud fee and they own half the foal/yearling. Then at the sales the ones they want they buy, so a 1m yearling only costs them 500k. They ones they don't want they let them sell and still get half of what the yearling sells for.
In short they have a monopoly on the whole thing.

Lt Dan · 16-09-2016 11:29AM

bellybuster12 wrote: »

"Foal share" where by they don't charge the breeder the stud fee and they own half the foal/yearling. Then at the sales the ones they want they buy, so a 1m yearling only costs them 500k. They ones they don't want they let them sell and still get half of what the yearling sells for.
In short they have a monopoly on the whole thing.

Clever! So that explains something like Ouija Board being the "oven" for Galileo's Australia ?

NewApproach · 16-09-2016 12:05PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Sure that is spare change for those boyos.

Anyone think of out and out financial mess ups they got themselves into buying purchasing a horse for racing or simply for breeding, utter failures . All owner-breeders go through this, so they can't be immune to dud decisions (or unlucky ones) just they are good keeping it quiet. I know the 2013 Irish Oaks filly did nothing after that win, but she was bought for breeding.

How do they make money from sending Galileo to outside mares out of what 250,000-350,000 quid a pop, and then actually spending up to a million for that colt/filly in the sales? Volume? Sounds a bit mad to be spending money on practically your own produce, as you might have your own mares that can do the job. Obviously, it works for them,gloriously. Juddmonte tend to keep things in house, using their impressive line of mares but obviously use outside sires

Can someone explain , the ins and outs of that side of the business.

If they weren't active in buying Galileo's at the sales, the breeders wouldn't be willing to pay the c.€300k nomination as the market for buying the produce would be materially reduced.

Mgoraf · 21-09-2016 10:15PM

I see The Gurkha retired today. Standing in Coolmore next year. I'd say he could produce some nice two year olds

tryfix · 17-10-2016 03:11AM

Zoffany finally had his first Gp1 winner when Leger 2nd Ventura Storm took the Premio Jockey Club in Italy.

All in all his first crop was fairly exceptional with 5 Gp1 placed horses in it with 2 of them finishing second in the English classics and a spread from Gp1 sprinter to Leger horses. Some start for a stallion that started out at €7,500 but first crop stallion sensations often fail to progress and he's not doing too hot with his second crop. Hopefully he can build on the promise of that first crop now that he's a €45,000 stallion.

Good to see Dubawi back in the groove after a fairly quiet spell during the summer.

tryfix · 19-10-2016 12:17AM

A very well written piece on the conundrum of what to do with all those brilliant Galileo fillies Coolmore have been churning out.

. Which sires are worthy of Minding and co?

BY MARTIN STEVENS 7:32PM 17 OCT 2016

IT IS very much a first-world problem but a problem nonetheless: when you own the best sire in the world and numerous high-achieving and regally bred mares by him, who do you then send those daughters to when they eventually retire to paddocks?

Coolmore have faced that enviable dilemma for some years now when deciding mating plans for mares by Galileo, along with those by Galileo's breed-shaping sire Sadler's Wells and paternal half-brothers such as High Chaparral and Montjeu.

The issue will be magnified when Coolmore choose which sires to entrust some of the brightest stars of this Flat season to at the end of their careers - Saturday's Queen Elizabeth II Stakes heroine Minding and Champion Stakes runner-up Found, and multiple Group 1 winners Alice Springs and Seventh Heaven, all daughters of Galileo with Alice Springs and Minding having the added complication of being out of mares by Danehill Dancer, another influential sire whose blood swills around the operation's stock.

After Galileo, the two next most expensive members of Coolmore's stallion ranks in Ireland are his sons Gleneagles and Australia, who will no doubt have some mares worthy of visiting their great sire diverted to them in order to cultivate them into credible heirs. But clearly they cannot cover their paternal half-sisters.

Sending Galileo mares to a son of Montjeu, such as Coolmore's well supported triple Classic winner Camelot, whose first crop are yearlings, involves 3x3 inbreeding to Sadler's Wells, which some breeders have not shied away from. For what it's worth, Dewhurst winner Parish Hall also boasts Galileo and Montjeu as grandparents.

Last year's standout first-season sire Zoffany had a steep fee increase at Coolmore to €45,000 and is clearly seen by breeders including Coolmore as a worthy outlet for well-bred daughters of Galileo judging by his coverings this year.

Zoffany covered no fewer than 31 Galileo mares among a book of 208. By way of comparison, he covered just nine daughters of Galileo last year and six in 2014.

Zoffany was on the mark with his first Group 1 winner on Sunday when Ventura Storm landed the Premio Jockey Club and he has supplied German 2,000 Guineas winner Knife Edge and Classic-placed Architecture, so he should have justified another larger book containing plenty of well-bred mares again next year.

Zoffany is a paternal grandson of Danehill and if, hypothetically, Coolmore did deem him a suitable match for Danehill's great-granddaughters Alice Springs and Minding, the duplication of the late, great shuttle stallion would be far enough removed to not constitute close inbreeding by thoroughbred standards.

Zoffany's sire, Juddmonte stalwart Dansili, has also been a recipient of top-grade Galileo mares in recent years, as has his Banstead Manor Stud colleague Oasis Dream.

Among Europe's other premier sires, Frankel (a son of Galileo) and Sea The Stars (a half-brother) are ruled out for matings with Galileo mares.

As I have remarked before, it seems a shame from a pedigree buff's point of view that Dubawi does not receive any of Coolmore's Galileo mares because he belongs to the rival camp of Darley. Especially as the cross has been advertised to such good effect by Night Of Thunder and Dartmouth.

So Coolmore have looked outside of Europe for stallions considered to be an adequate match for their many Galileo and Sadler's Wells mares.

Australian champion sire Fastnet Rock was seconded to Tipperary in 2010 and was granted some of the cream of the Coolmore broodmare fold and some A-listers from private breeders too. Tellingly, he was the first port of call for Coolmore's first Group 1-winning daughter of Galileo of their own, Misty For Me, when she was retired to stud.

Fastnet Rock did not make as immediate an impact with his early European-conceived runners as some thought he would, and he was rested from shuttling duties for a season, but he came to the boil with three Group 1 winners up here last year - Diamondsandrubies, Fascinating Rock and Qualify - and he made the return trip from Australia for 2016.

The son of Danehill has clicked particularly well with Galileo mares, the nick being responsible for three top-level winners in Intricately, Magicool and Qualify, as well as Group winners Rivet, Turret Rocks and Zhukova.

Fastnet Rock covered 14 daughters of Galileo in Ireland this year, but it is another sire in Kentucky, not in Coolmore ownership, who appears to have taken up the baton as The Lads' preferred outcross.

War Front's one-two in last month's Cheveley Park Stakes went some way to justifying their faith, with Brave Anna, a daughter of Sadler's Wells' Group 3 winner Liscanna and a sister to Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf winner Hit It A Bomb, beating Roly Poly, a daughter of Misty For Me. There has also been Listed-placed Leo Minor, out of Kissed, a Listed-winning Galileo three-parts sister to Pour Moi.

The cross was also embraced by Qatar Bloodstock and Newsells Park Stud, who sent Galileo's Classic-placed daughter Secret Gesture to War Front this year and sell her at Keeneland next month. It has become the ultimate high-end commercial mating, with Galileo mares Betterbetterbetter, Aloof, Up, Terrific and Precious Stone sold at auction in foal to War Front for $5.2 million, $3.9m, $2.2m, $1.9m and $1.8m.

Coolmore have also branched out to Japan. Galileo's champion two-year-old filly Maybe has a two-year-old filly and yearling colt by Deep Impact, while four-time Group 1 heroine Peeping Fawn (by Danehill out of a Sadler's Wells mare) has a two-year-old colt and yearling filly by the outstanding Japanese sire.

They could also be tempted to send top-class daughters of Galileo to two exciting young sires at their Ashford Stud in Kentucky. There is Triple Crown hero American Pharoah and Uncle Mo, who has dazzled by supplying Kentucky Derby winner Nyquist and fellow Grade 1 winners Gomo and Outwork in his first crop. But they could be too dirt-oriented to be considered a safe bet to click with turf queens.

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/which-sires-are-worthy-of-minding-and-co/2176421/top/

Stallions

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