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Shackleton, the greatest Irish hero?
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Ireland was part of Britain then. How can someone working for his own country be a traitor?
I can understand the posters point about treachery, in this case treacher to his own people.
A lot of those who worked for Britain were often traitors to their own people i.e. the Irish.
To be a bit pedantic.
Were we ever British ?
We were never in Great Britain, we were in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
We were in the British Empire but for most people it wasn't a situation we willingly signed up to.
The British themselves and some Irish working for them may have thought we were some part of it, but a huge chunk of the Irish saw us as a conquered people, a colony.
That was one of the big mistakes British authorities often made when dealing with Ireland.
And in terms of colony most of the Irish were not the Australians or Kiwis, we were the Aborigines and the Maoris.
The Anglo Irish, the descendants of planters, and assorted others who had often changed to the state religion could be seen as the equivalent of the Australians or Kiwis.
Also remember Britain and it's authorities had long looked on most of the Irish with utter contempt.
I think the difference in religion, the treatment the Irish had gotten over the centuries, the treatment during the famine, our dispossession from our lands had left a lasting impression and a hatred.
Likewise I would guess to some extent with the island and highland Scots.
Of course the lairds drove out a lot of the ones who would have carried that feeling forward.Why is the glory of the empire contemptible (of which Ireland was a part)? Hillary and Tenzings conquest of Everest was celebrated in honour of the Coronation - was that contemptible too?
You are full of the aul contempt.
The thing is we were never a happy clappy member of the British Empire as in the likes of New Zealand where the aforementioned Hilary hailed from.
And remember this was the 1950s when the likes of New Zealand still had a lot of people looking to Britain\England and the royalty.
Nowadays it is a lot different, a lot of New Zealander are South Sea Islanders and from other parts of Asia who couldn't give a rats ass about Britain, the Queen, commonwealth never mind Empire.
They see themselves as their own people and nation.
Some people have the opinion Australia had changed it's outlook a lot during/after WWII when they realised that Britain could no longer be relied upon to protect them and they were on the other side of the world.
Also maybe providing cannon fodder for Britain's European wars whilst leaving themselves vulnerable back home had finally dawned on them as not the best idea.
Add to that the influx of immigrants from Italy, Greece, and later Asia who have no link back to old Blighty.
I could say it takes New Zealand a little time to follow their neighbours, but I might suddenly find a mass of Kiwis arriving to complain.
Besides one of them is doing us Westerners a great service these days.
I am not allowed discuss …
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I can understand the posters point about treachery, in this case treacher to his own people.
A lot of those who worked for Britain were often traitors to their own people i.e. the Irish.
To be a bit pedantic.
Were we ever British ?
We were never in Great Britain, we were in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
We were in the British Empire but for most people it wasn't a situation we willingly signed up to.
The British themselves and some Irish working for them may have thought we were some part of it, but a huge chunk of the Irish saw us as a conquered people, a colony.
That was one of the big mistakes British authorities often made when dealing with Ireland.
And in terms of colony most of the Irish were not the Australians or Kiwis, we were the Aborigines and the Maoris.
The Anglo Irish, the descendants of planters, and assorted others who had often changed to the state religion could be seen as the equivalent of the Australians or Kiwis.
Also remember Britain and it's authorities had long looked on most of the Irish with utter contempt.
I think the difference in religion, the treatment the Irish had gotten over the centuries, the treatment during the famine, our dispossession from our lands had left a lasting impression and a hatred.
Likewise I would guess to some extent with the island and highland Scots.
Of course the lairds drove out a lot of the ones who would have carried that feeling forward.
The thing is we were never a happy clappy member of the British Empire as in the likes of New Zealand where the aforementioned Hilary hailed from.
And remember this was the 1950s when the likes of New Zealand still had a lot of people looking to Britain\England and the royalty.
Nowadays it is a lot different, a lot of New Zealander are South Sea Islanders and from other parts of Asia who couldn't give a rats ass about Britain, the Queen, commonwealth never mind Empire.
They see themselves as their own people and nation.
Some people have the opinion Australia had changed it's outlook a lot during/after WWII when they realised that Britain could no longer be relied upon to protect them and they were on the other side of the world.
Also maybe providing cannon fodder for Britain's European wars whilst leaving themselves vulnerable back home had finally dawned on them as not the best idea.
Add to that the influx of immigrants from Italy, Greece, and later Asia who have no link back to old Blighty.
I could say it takes New Zealand a little time to follow their neighbours, but I might suddenly find a mass of Kiwis arriving to complain.
Besides one of them is doing us Westerners a great service these days.
You have beaten me with sheer volume of words.....0 -
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I would say that was down to Toms modesty more than anything else,its not as if people did not know about his previous career before he started putting up pints of slop to them.Ehh he never discussed his voyages and adventures.
He did not display his medals.
In fact his pub was raided by Black and Tans and they only left when they found evidence of his Royal Navy service.
Talk about chips on shoulders. :rolleyes:
There is one incident showing his pettiness and vindictiveness.
Can you please find some more ?
BTW the Irish can be pretty damn petty and talk about vindictive.
Why do you have to make reference to fact Shackleton's brother was homosexual ?
Why not do the same when you are talking about Casement ?
Funny you should bring in the word traitor.
Casement supposedly wanted to argue an Irishman could not be a traitor to Britain since they were not British.
BTW would you have seen all Irish that joined British Army or RIC as traitors ?
He isn't Irish either. :rolleyes:
Did he have a big pic of himself in his Navy uniform hanging up ?
Did he have his medals out on show ?
How many people I wonder knew that a Royal Navy admiral has sent flowers to be put on Tom Crean's grave.
BTW the South Pole Inn was probably named in honour of Tom Crean's friend and fellow explorer, Edgar Evans, who had always dreamt of returning to Wales to open a pub with that name.
Then again He could have done a "John Terry" a la Champions league final on it every night and slapped on the uniform for his clients and recreated his crowning glory.
I never thought Irish people ignored Shackletons exploits but I think characters like Shackleton,Kitchener,Wellington etc achieved what they did more because of the drive that was instilled in them from their British education and British military training than where they were born and left at a very young age.
Everything they done after that was for King and empire so it is hardly surprising that we would celebrate the likes of Tom Crean more so than the likes of the above.0 -
You have beaten me with sheer volume of words.....
If you are Irish and probably of a certain age you would see what I am driving at.
That doesn't necessarily mean people were/are raving republican terrorist sympathisers either.
Today nationality is not as important for some Irish people.
The same is evident in how some young British people view Britain and especially now it's place within Europe.I will be really popular for suggesting this - the Irish person who has contributed most for the good of the world is Bob Geldof.
Red rag and bull comes to mind.
At least you didn't say the other B.
I am not allowed discuss …
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[/B] I would say that was down to Toms modesty more than anything else,its not as if people did not know about his previous career before he started putting up pints of slop to them.
I would part of it was his modesty and part was the political climate of the day.Then again He could have done a "John Terry" a la Champions league final on it every night and slapped on the uniform for his clients and recreated his crowning glory.
I would say, pardon the pun, those two would be poles apart.I never thought Irish people ignored Shackletons exploits but I think characters like Shackleton,Kitchener,Wellington etc achieved what they did more because of the drive that was instilled in them from their British education and British military training than where they were born and left at a very young age.
Wellington and Kitchener yes, because they were products of the British Military establishment.
Welsey, Wellesley or whatever way you spell his name was the 3rd of 5 sons.
BTW he also had Kildare (Athy) links.
The only path really open to him was the military as was custom of the day.
And through connections he got a commission in the army.
He later bought some of his promotions.
Something some people might not know is that he as Prime Minister helped push through Catholic Emancipation, actually contrary to a lot of his Tory party.
Then on the minus side he was very anti Reform Act and anti Jewish Emancipation.
Kitchener's father had been in the army.
He was educated at the royal Military academy in Woolwich.
He was really a lifer and the military was his career.
Shackleton was never a product of British military as he had only been in Merchant Navy.
Scott was though and maybe that was why Scott was very much into the officers and men mullarkey.I am not allowed discuss …
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