Shackleton, the greatest Irish hero?

Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognise Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

Gwynplaine

Marty Morrissey gets my vote. Legend.

Stigura

Are allowed to include Paddy Mayne? A f**king legend, for coming out with: " When ye simply must kill everyone in the room ....? " I mean, for that alone!

failinis

You just gave me a great idea about another Irish adventurer - ta!

But I think maybe the museums here having a bit more of his things would nice and some mention of it in schools and the like would be good, but not to go over board on it all.

Arsemageddon

Shackleton is pretty well known to anyone with an interest in that period. I don't think you could say that he was airbrushed out of history, but he has certainly been discussed a lot more in the last few years. By Endurance We Conquer is a fantastic biography.

SEPT 23 1989

Airbrushed?

Anything they considered not Irish in their narrow little view was burnt and destroyed

Arsemageddon

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Airbrushed?

Anything they considered not Irish in their narrow little view was burnt and destroyed

Who are they?

lawlolawl

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Who are they?

Dem bois

Duckworth_Luas

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

cml387

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

Well the British did name a long range reconnaisance aircraft after him, so he wasn't exactly airbrushed out of history.

I hadn't heard of Tom Crean until the Guinness ad.

Duckworth_Luas

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

It's certainly true that Shackleton's heroism was not broadcast at the time, it was considered to be pretty much the antithesis of the heroism of those slaughtered in the Somme whose selflessness was more allied with Scott, and was not treated as "good news".

As a student in the 80s, don't think his name was ever mentioned in Irish history lessons. Not that that would be surprising, his exploits were not really relevant to our history. But outside the narrow focus of Irish history, maybe it's time we really promoted him as the ultimate Irish hero. Now that would not necessarily mean the greatest Irish person, for me Yeats still holds that accolade, but he was an incredible and remarkable person...

Dyr

Having whinged and bellyached that poor tom crean did'nt get enough recognition in comparison to anyone remotely in the birth of this nation (presumably a quota) are we now moving onto shackleton?

We'll be up at Des Lynam by christmas at this rate

jluv

As much as I hate to admit this, the first I knew of him was in a bar in NY which was called Shackletons and had a lot of pics and memorabilia. Don't know if it's still there.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Having whinged and bellyached that poor tom crean did'nt get enough recognition in comparison to anyone remotely in the birth of this nation (presumably a quota) are we now moving onto shackleton?

We'll be up at Des Lynam by christmas at this rate

Trying to think of how many Lynam saved, or his obvious heroism. Failing. Enlighten me.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying to think of how many Lynam saved, or his obvious heroism. Failing. Enlighten me.

The great Des saved many Saturdays for millions of viewers

So now you can perhaps enlighten everyone as to what an arctic explorer has to do with the 1916 rising other than the usual mingy whinging.

After that you can explain how putting someones life at risk in the first place for your own ego is saving them

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

The great Des saved many Saturdays for millions of viewers

So now you can perhaps enlighten everyone as to what an arctic explorer has to do with the 1916 rising other than the usual mingy whinging.

After that you can explain how putting someones life at risk in the first place for your own ego is saving them

You don't get the connection between self sacrifice for some nationalist ideal, whether Irish or British, and someone going completely against the grain and the preservation of the lives of his men above all else, at the same time?

None?

Nada?

If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

beauf

Most people don't know about this part of the party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Sea_party_1914%E2%80%9316

Arsemageddon

Deleted User wrote: »

If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

With respect, you don't get to decide who should post in a thread based on whether or not they agree with you.

indioblack

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

Arsemageddon

Arsemageddon wrote: »

With respect, you don't get to decide who should post in a thread based on whether or not they agree with you.

No.

When I said "this thread is not for you" I wasn't suggesting censorship, merely "you don't really get it, do you".

And anyone who repteatedly argues that Shackleton compares with Des Lynam doesn't really get it, do they?

pickarooney

indioblack wrote: »

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

Who was even going to check that they'd got all the way?

silverharp

George Orwell was born in India I doubt Indian's bother to claim him as a great Indian writer.

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

George Orwell was born in India I doubt Indian's bother to claim him as a great Indian writer.

The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

beauf wrote: »

Most people don't know about this part of the party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Sea_party_1914%E2%80%9316

I think you'll find many know about it and have read the huge best seller "The Lost Men".

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

im not suggesting anyone like this is airbrushed out of local history. Orwell though doesnt show up this wiki list of "indian writers" , he is rightly viewed as being a product of British culture who happened to be born in India


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_writers

Joe_ Public

indioblack wrote: »

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

A while since I read about them too, have had Michael Smith's book on Shackleton on my radar for ages and must finally get round to it. From memory, I think it was the gas cannisters that ultimately did for Scott and his men, among other contributing flaws, they failed to understand that the tops expanded in the freezing temperatures and had started to leak by the time they reached them.

Personally, I don't hold that these guys were "heroes" in the strictest sense of the term, nor on the other hand, do I feel the need to equate their deeds to 1916 or the slaughter of the Somme. I think mostly they were driven by vanity and the wish for personal glory, much like those who led the conquest of Everest, and there's nothing much wrong with that. They were brave and fascinating individuals in their own right.

Incidentally, there was a good documentary on Radio One about 2 or 3 weeks back, on Seascapes I think, about the Irishman who found and bought Shackleton's hut. I think it is back in Athy now or at least that's what I took from it.

Wibbs

#showingmyage The first time I can remember hearing of Shackleton and his expedition was from watching an early 1980's BBC Pebble Mill at One recurring spot where one of their reporters went to the South Atlantic, visited the Falklands and talked long and in some depth about the Shackleton expedition and incredible rescue(Crean was mentioned too). They used the incredible photos and film from the expedition itself and visited a few of the original sites. This TV thing was just before the Falklands war kicked off, so when that did viewers in the UK(and the small numbers over here in Ireland with pipe TV like myself) were pre informed about an otherwise previously publicly unknown place. These days there'd likely be a conspiracy theory wheeled out to explain that

Capt'n Midnight

cml387 wrote: »

Well the British did name a long range reconnaisance aircraft after him, so he wasn't exactly airbrushed out of history.

Earnestly they named a boat after him too.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:780981/zoom:10

Manach

From reading the excellent "Endurance: Shackleton's Voyage to the Antarctic" by Lansing: gives an appreciation of the hardships that that trapped crew underwent and Shackleton's force of leadership that got them through. He would be a person who would be worth the study, for emulation and hard won life lessons.

indioblack

pickarooney wrote: »

Who was even going to check that they'd got all the way?

Wasn't there a big pole there?!
With a Union Jack on it - blast those Norwegians!

Badly Drunk Boy

failinis wrote: »

But I think maybe the museums here having a bit more of his things would nice and some mention of it in schools and the like would be good, but not to go over board on it all.

The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare has the only permanent exhibition dedicated to Shackleton, since he was born nearby.

Eugene Norman

I'm pretty sure Shackleton would have seen himself as English.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

But they don't see him as Indian. Nor is richard Dawkins seen as Kenyan.

If both had been not just born but grew up, worked and died where they were born they would have been seen as Anglo Indian or Anglo Kenyan, but going back to England so early in life they are seen as English.

tipptom

I would think as far as a greatest Irish hero and adventurer it would have to be Thomas Francis Meaghers story for me,cannot believe that someone has not made a film of his life because the story there is amazing.

Eugene Norman

tipptom wrote: »

I would think as far as a greatest Irish hero and adventurer it would have to be Thomas Francis Meaghers story for me,cannot believe that someone has not made a film of his life because the story there is amazing.

Yes. Incredible life.

tipptom

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes. Incredible life.

Imagine the cinematography over three continents from Irish rebellion to Australian hard labour convict to North American civil war to American president pall bearer and no need to embellish the story,just fitting it all in would be the problem.


Bazz Lurhmann could be the guy.

Eugene Norman

tipptom wrote: »

Imagine the cinematography over three continents from Irish rebellion to Australian hard labour convict to North American civil war to American president pall bearer and no need to embellish the story,just fitting it all in would be the problem.


Bazz Lurhmann could be the guy.

And governor of Nevada. All of that in 20 years from 23-43.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't get the connection between self sacrifice for some nationalist ideal, whether Irish or British, and someone going completely against the grain and the preservation of the lives of his men above all else, at the same time?

None?

Nada?

If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

Nah I get the connection with Shackleton being British hence your infatuation with having him recognised as a great irishman.

I'd prefer Lynam for that role, nice 'tache, well mannered. Didn't risk a load of lads lives just to try get one over Dickie Davies. That's a hero.

emo72

And after the epic voyage to south Georgia to then end up shipwrecked on the wrong side of the island. With barely a match between them. Then traveling through the island over snowcapped peaks? Where no person had ever done it? Ah leave it out lads, they're making it up. Its impossible.

indioblack

Bambi wrote: »

Nah I get the connection with Shackleton being British hence your infatuation with having him recognised as a great irishman.

I'd prefer Lynam for that role, nice 'tache, well mannered. Didn't risk a load of lads lives just to try get one over Dickie Davies. That's a hero.

They weren't obliged to go were they?
Had they not gone with Shackleton they would probably have been asked to participate in WW1 . Some did upon their return.
The thing that stands out about those times is that once the ship was lost they were the only people on the Anatarctic continent - no communications with the rest of the world - no one knew of their situation - it was just themselves.
I remember reading that, after their rescue, Shackleton asked if the war was over - and he was told no, it was still raging with huge numbers being killed.

jelutong

What he did may have been heroic in his own small world but not in the overall scheme of things.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-should-reclaim-ernest-shackleton-as-an-irish-hero-1.2045519

lawlolawl

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare ....

No wonder he spent so much time in the Antarctic.

Anything to get out of that kip of a town.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-should-reclaim-ernest-shackleton-as-an-irish-hero-1.2045519

"It’s not for me as an outsider to say who should Ireland commemorate and whose statues they should put up but I would say, if asked, yes, I really think they should" :pac:

Fratton Fred

http://shackletonexhibition.com/

This was in Dun Laoghaire until fairly recently.

Badly Drunk Boy

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare has the only permanent exhibition dedicated to Shackleton, since he was born nearby.

Passed it a few months back on way to a removal on a Sunday evening alright. Would like to see it.

souter

The guy that actually built and sailed on the boat Shackleton rode to glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McNish

Didn't get a medal, died in poverty in New Zealand.

stoneill

Wibbs wrote: »

#showingmyage The first time I can remember hearing of Shackleton and his expedition was from watching an early 1980's BBC Pebble Mill at One recurring spot where one of their reporters went to the South Atlantic, visited the Falklands and talked long and in some depth about the Shackleton expedition and incredible rescue(Crean was mentioned too). They used the incredible photos and film from the expedition itself and visited a few of the original sites. This TV thing was just before the Falklands war kicked off, so when that did viewers in the UK(and the small numbers over here in Ireland with pipe TV like myself) were pre informed about an otherwise previously publicly unknown place. These days there'd likely be a conspiracy theory wheeled out to explain that

\
I remember watch that too during school lunch break.
I though he was saying Falcon Islands.
Presented by Bob Langley I think.

Lt Dan

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognize Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

While Crean served in the British Navy, and had family in the RIC (who died in the Tan War), Shakelton was Anglo Irish ,and was in complete support of Britain. I suppose that might be why Ireland neglects him

He sure was brave. You watching that BBC programme about him ?

Sure Lord Kitchner was born in Kerry, he would not have seen himself as Irish, far from it in fact.

Monty had some connections to Ireland too

Dr Crayfish

Earnest sounds like he led an interesting life alright. Is there something wrong with me in that I feel zero pride in any of this 1916 stuff, or care? Should it not be looked back at as a lesson for what not to do, i.e. trying to resolve situations through violence? We should be proud of the fact that Western Europe is at peace now for the first time in a long time, instead of fondly remembering our violent past.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

But, but, but he was English and besides he was of Quaker stock was he not.
For a long time in Ireland (see our education system from foundation of the state right up to recent enough) to be an Irish hero one had to have usually fought the English and probably been a Catholic.
Wolfe Tone was one of the exceptions.
Parnell was another, but when he was mentioned in school I remember how his long term affair was usually mentioned quiet soon afterwards.
A Catholic hero wouldn't have let himself be having affairs and the like.

I reckon some posters still hang on to that mindset.

Deleted User wrote: »

He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

Actually his heroism wasn't celebrated in Britain either.
Chasing impossible dreams in the Antarctic was not considered noteworthy when millions were dying on the battlefields on Europe.
Besides Scott was considered the greater since a more British thing to do is celebrate gallant plucky failures in comparison to successes.
Amundsen realised this as well when he found out Scott had perished.

Deleted User wrote: »

In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognise Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

As a Kerryman you should not forget Tom Crean was not celebrated until quiet recently (his statue in Annascaul only appearing this century).
After he retired to Kerry he basically hid for the rest of his life his Polar explorer medals and his involvement with some of the most spectacular Antarctic expeditions.

Kerry was a hotbed of republicanism and someone who served the British crown wouldn't have been always welcome reliving his adventures for King and Empire.

souter wrote: »

The guy that actually built and sailed on the boat Shackleton rode to glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McNish

Didn't get a medal, died in poverty in New Zealand.

"Chippy" McNish was not liked by Shackleton and he was seen as a pessimist and bad influence.
He had refused to pull the lifeboats at one stage, which could be seen as mutiny of sorts.
Supposedly McNish had a chip on his shoulder (pardon the pun) because Shackelton ordered his cat be shot because he wouldn't survive on the ice or couldn't be fed.
Crean on the other hand actually killed his own dogs for the same reason.

Some believe he was brought on the James Caird to South Georgia because of his bad attitude rather than just being the guy who could help fix it at sea.

A lot of people, including Macklin, thought it petty of Shackleton to deny McNish the Polar medal and there was a campaign at one stage to posthumously award the medal.
Maybe that incident showed another petty side of Shackleton's character ?