The Hazards of Belief

recedite · 24-05-2016 02:01PM

The islamic cultural centre/museum would presumably include prayer rooms, so it would therefore be a mosque in disguise.
On the other hand, if it is 4 blocks away from ground zero, it has nothing to do with the 9/11 site. But the proximity does make it a bit insensitive.

oscarBravo · 24-05-2016 02:32PM

recedite wrote: »

The islamic cultural centre/museum would presumably include prayer rooms, so it would therefore be a mosque in disguise.
On the other hand, if it is 4 blocks away from ground zero, it has nothing to do with the 9/11 site. But the proximity does make it a bit insensitive.

You think there should be a Muslim-free zone within a certain number of blocks of ground zero?

Or you think that Muslims should be allowed in that area, as long as they're not too overtly Muslim?

Or are you just taking the piss? Because that's the kindest explanation I can think of.

Mark Hamill · 24-05-2016 02:52PM

recedite wrote: »

The islamic cultural centre/museum would presumably include prayer rooms, so it would therefore be a mosque in disguise.
On the other hand, if it is 4 blocks away from ground zero, it has nothing to do with the 9/11 site. But the proximity does make it a bit insensitive.

The science block in UCD has (or had when i went there) a muslim prayer room, is the science block therefore a mosque in disguise?

24-05-2016 03:10PM

Manchester Airport has prayer rooms. Didn't realise it was a mosque in disguise!

I'll take the ferry home next time.

JPNelsforearm · 24-05-2016 03:30PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The science block in UCD has (or had when i went there) a muslim prayer room, is the science block therefore a mosque in disguise?

Why is a science block pandering to religious/political whims? Does it also have a commissar room?

Lurkio · 24-05-2016 03:47PM

recedite wrote: »

The islamic cultural centre/museum would presumably include prayer rooms, so it would therefore be a mosque in disguise.
On the other hand, if it is 4 blocks away from ground zero, it has nothing to do with the 9/11 site. But the proximity does make it a bit insensitive.

......why is it insensitive....?

Lurkio · 24-05-2016 03:48PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Why is a science block pandering to religious/political whims? Does it also have a commissar room?

No, though it does allow mixing of the races in the cafeteria.

Links234 · 24-05-2016 03:49PM

You know, with the completely dismissive reaction to the article about the lengths women in Iran have to go through to avoid ire from religious morality police, and the rather absurd 'mosque in disguise' comment, it's almost as if some posters aren't very critical of Islam at all, they're just using atheism as a cover to bash all muslims. It's rather peculiar.

Lurkio · 24-05-2016 04:01PM

Links234 wrote: »

You know, with the completely dismissive reaction to the article about the lengths women in Iran have to go through to avoid ire from religious morality police, and the rather absurd 'mosque in disguise' comment, it's almost as if some posters aren't very critical of Islam at all, they're just using atheism as a cover to bash all muslims. It's rather peculiar.

It's a complaint made in more places than this. We complain about people ticking the box "catholic" in the census when they aren't in fact remotely religious, where they label one and a half billion not only as conservatives, but extremists bent on international terrorism. Challenge them and get a denial, go through their posts and see the truth.

And then we have the far right, suddenly concerned for secular values, when a good part of their stock in trade is often social conservatism as regards the role of women in society and access to abortion.

That being said, in this specific country we've very few openly far right types, and even many on here, despite the cover of anonymity, often only express their views by thanking posts, rather than saying the same thing overtly themselves.

JPNelsforearm · 24-05-2016 04:02PM

Lurkio wrote: »

No, though it does allow mixing of the races in the cafeteria.

Very unhygienic one would think....

Lurkio · 24-05-2016 04:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Manchester Airport has prayer rooms. Didn't realise it was a mosque in disguise!

.

....theres even muslim writing on the planes...
http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2011/manairport/images/35.jpg

Lurkio · 24-05-2016 04:04PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Very unhygienic one would think....

..only for those overly concerned with racial hygiene.

recedite · 24-05-2016 09:48PM

There's a bit of a difference between a place of work or study allocating a private room for devout muslims to pray in (given that they are supposed to pray at certain times of the day) and building a purpose-built islamic cultural centre/islamic museum/prayer hall and sticking it in a block of apartments.

marienbad · 24-05-2016 09:52PM

recedite wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between a place of work or study allocating a private room for devout muslims to pray in (given that they are supposed to pray at certain times of the day) and building a purpose-built islamic cultural centre/islamic museum/prayer hall and sticking it in a block of apartments.

How ?? They still have to pray at certain times of the day ?

recedite · 24-05-2016 09:58PM

Links234 wrote: »

You know, with the completely dismissive reaction to the article about the lengths women in Iran have to go through to avoid ire from religious morality police, and the rather absurd 'mosque in disguise' comment, it's almost as if some posters aren't very critical of Islam at all, they're just using atheism as a cover to bash all muslims. It's rather peculiar.

Why don't you go try and set up a transgenderist bar in Riyadh. Let us know how you get on with the ordinary muslims.

oscarBravo · 24-05-2016 09:59PM

recedite wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between a place of work or study allocating a private room for devout muslims to pray in (given that they are supposed to pray at certain times of the day) and building a purpose-built islamic cultural centre/islamic museum/prayer hall and sticking it in a block of apartments.

Yes, there's a bit of a difference.

Can you explain why it's insensitive to have an islamic museum in downtown Manhatten?

recedite · 24-05-2016 10:19PM

marienbad wrote: »

How ?? They still have to pray at certain times of the day ?

I'm pretty sure the luxury condominiums will be completely private. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't even get inside the lobby when its finished. So why the need for a public "private room" to pray in?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, there's a bit of a difference.

Can you explain why it's insensitive to have an islamic museum in downtown Manhatten?

The top two floors of the building were demolished by a piece of fuselage from one of the 9/11 airplanes which had already passed through one of the the twin towers, and which left this building structurally unsafe.
You previously stated that the fact that all those hijackers were salafists was merely a coincidence, and what they really had in common was that they were all humans, so you probably still don't get why it would be "insensitive" to rebuild it as an islamic cultural centre, but most people would see the connection straight away.

marienbad · 24-05-2016 10:29PM

recedite wrote: »

Why don't you go try and set up a transgenderist bar in Riyadh. Let us know how you get on with the ordinary muslims.

How is this relevant ?

cowboyBuilder · 24-05-2016 11:12PM

recedite wrote: »

Why don't you go try and set up a transgenderist bar in Riyadh. Let us know how you get on with the ordinary muslims.

Now now ... don't mention that you "racist".

Don't you know, we can't be critical at all of a dangerous ideology, but they can do what they want - because it's "culture" and religion - and we must respect it.

Trent Houseboat · 25-05-2016 08:56AM

cowboyBuilder wrote:

Now now ... don't mention that you "racist".

Don't you know, we can't be critical at all of a dangerous ideology, but they can do what they want - because it's "culture" and religion - and we must respect it.

I'm having flashbacks to last year when people were falsely claiming that they were being called homophobes (instead of racists.)

Next I expect to hear from a poster who had previously been in favour of letting muslims build secret mosques in the general area of ground zero, but after witnessing others called racist bigots the poster has changed their mind.

oscarBravo · 25-05-2016 09:40AM

recedite wrote: »

The top two floors of the building were demolished by a piece of fuselage from one of the 9/11 airplanes which had already passed through one of the the twin towers, and which left this building structurally unsafe.

I can see how it might be insensitive to build an aviation museum on the site on that basis.

You previously stated that the fact that all those hijackers were salafists was merely a coincidence...

No, I didn't.

...and what they really had in common was that they were all humans, so you probably still don't get why it would be "insensitive" to rebuild it as an islamic cultural centre, but most people would see the connection straight away.

Ah. It's insensitive because "most people" conflate Islam with terrorism. Gotcha.

Mark Hamill · 25-05-2016 11:22AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Why is a science block pandering to religious/political whims? Does it also have a commissar room?

Why is it pandering? Why is it not just making allowances for? It was a small room, with some space for muslims to pray in quiet. I imagine it is much cheaper than the christian chaplain employed in UCD.

Mark Hamill · 25-05-2016 11:23AM

recedite wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between a place of work or study allocating a private room for devout muslims to pray in (given that they are supposed to pray at certain times of the day) and building a purpose-built islamic cultural centre/islamic museum/prayer hall and sticking it in a block of apartments.

You've gone from prayer room to prayer hall, do you actually know which one will be present?

Mark Hamill · 25-05-2016 11:25AM

recedite wrote: »

Why don't you go try and set up a transgenderist bar in Riyadh. Let us know how you get on with the ordinary muslims.

Yes, lets lower ourselves to their most intolerant level, that's how we show ourselves to be better than them :pac:

JPNelsforearm · 25-05-2016 11:42AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why is it pandering? Why is it not just making allowances for? It was a small room, with some space for muslims to pray in quiet. I imagine it is much cheaper than the christian chaplain employed in UCD.

Surely all of the religious guff should be confined to the one space, making allowances and giving every group a special space in every building is ridiculous, you are there to study, pray on your own time or in the designated building, which I recall, UCD has. Secular, taxpayer funded, institutions should make no allowances for your personal ****, especially a science block of all places.

MrPudding · 25-05-2016 12:06PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I can see how it might be insensitive to build an aviation museum on the site on that basis.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's insensitive because "most people" conflate Islam with terrorism. Gotcha.

Hold on a minute... First off, I am not commenting on whether or not it is insensitive, but I do want to raise this.

The event in question was aeroplanes being flown into buildings, and this was done in the name of Islam*. So you think it is understandable that an aviation museum would be insensitive but you see no problem with a mosque? Do you see the aviation museum as insensitive because you think "most people" conflate aviation with terrorism?

MrP

*I appreciate that many say these acts go against Islam, and I fully accept that, but the fact remains the people that perpetrated the act did so based in their twisted vision of what Islam was.

Mark Hamill · 25-05-2016 01:06PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Surely all of the religious guff should be confined to the one space, making allowances and giving every group a special space in every building is ridiculous, you are there to study, pray on your own time or in the designated building, which I recall, UCD has. Secular, taxpayer funded, institutions should make no allowances for your personal ****, especially a science block of all places.

By your argument, the science block shouldn't have had a canteen, seeing as there was a "designated" building on campus for eating (the main restaurant).
Also, what designated building does ucd have for muslim praying?
EDIT: And what difference would it make it had some small designated rooms dotted around campus for muslim praying, rather than a designated building?

JPNelsforearm · 25-05-2016 01:19PM

Eating is an essential activity for optimal brain function, prayer is not. Also, it makes sense to have a cafeterias for each building rather than one giant building that would be required to service the entire campus, the same is not true of prayer rooms.

UCD iirc, has a religious building and prayer rooms etc, its been four years since I graduated and I never used them but I remember the facilities did exist.

Its a waste of space and pandering to a religion, there are religious facilities available, why should you get special treatment?

oscarBravo · 25-05-2016 02:05PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Hold on a minute... First off, I am not commenting on whether or not it is insensitive, but I do want to raise this.

The event in question was aeroplanes being flown into buildings, and this was done in the name of Islam*. So you think it is understandable that an aviation museum would be insensitive but you see no problem with a mosque? Do you see the aviation museum as insensitive because you think "most people" conflate aviation with terrorism?

MrP

*I appreciate that many say these acts go against Islam, and I fully accept that, but the fact remains the people that perpetrated the act did so based in their twisted vision of what Islam was.

I probably should have used a rolleyes emoticon.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think it would be insensitive to have an aviation museum in downtown Manhattan. I don't think that anyone would yell at someone wearing a pilot's uniform while walking on Fulton Street. I don't think there would be any controversy if ALPA opened an office in Tribeca.

Why? Because although airplanes were used as weapons of mass destruction, "most people" understand that the average airplane doesn't intend them any harm.

It's only insensitive to have a Muslim centre in downtown Manhattan if you insist on conflating Islam with terrorism, which is every bit as reasonable as conflating Irishness with terrorism, or Catholicism with child rape.

Michael OBrien · 26-05-2016 01:13AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

or Catholicism with child rape.

There is quite a bit of a link between christianity (or catholicism) and child rape. Including sexual repression, priesthood, the absolute authority of the pope, the system of the clergy viewed as unquestionable, the threat of hell, the false claims about moral purity, the biblical references to indoctrinating children and blind faith, etc.
While you cannot conflate the two concepts as the SAME thing, it would be incorrect to say that they are not strongly linked in many ways.

The Hazards of Belief

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