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Shackleton, the greatest Irish hero?

2

Comments

  • #32
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    I'm pretty sure Shackleton would have seen himself as English.


  • #33
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

    But they don't see him as Indian. Nor is richard Dawkins seen as Kenyan.

    If both had been not just born but grew up, worked and died where they were born they would have been seen as Anglo Indian or Anglo Kenyan, but going back to England so early in life they are seen as English.


  • #34
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    I would think as far as a greatest Irish hero and adventurer it would have to be Thomas Francis Meaghers story for me,cannot believe that someone has not made a film of his life because the story there is amazing.


  • #35
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    tipptom wrote: »
    I would think as far as a greatest Irish hero and adventurer it would have to be Thomas Francis Meaghers story for me,cannot believe that someone has not made a film of his life because the story there is amazing.

    Yes. Incredible life.


  • #36
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Yes. Incredible life.
    Imagine the cinematography over three continents from Irish rebellion to Australian hard labour convict to North American civil war to American president pall bearer and no need to embellish the story,just fitting it all in would be the problem.


    Bazz Lurhmann could be the guy.


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  • #37
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    tipptom wrote: »
    Imagine the cinematography over three continents from Irish rebellion to Australian hard labour convict to North American civil war to American president pall bearer and no need to embellish the story,just fitting it all in would be the problem.


    Bazz Lurhmann could be the guy.

    And governor of Nevada. All of that in 20 years from 23-43.


  • #38
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You don't get the connection between self sacrifice for some nationalist ideal, whether Irish or British, and someone going completely against the grain and the preservation of the lives of his men above all else, at the same time?

    None?

    Nada?

    If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

    Nah I get the connection with Shackleton being British hence your infatuation with having him recognised as a great irishman. :)

    I'd prefer Lynam for that role, nice 'tache, well mannered. Didn't risk a load of lads lives just to try get one over Dickie Davies. That's a hero.


  • #39
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,540 ✭✭✭emo72


    And after the epic voyage to south Georgia to then end up shipwrecked on the wrong side of the island. With barely a match between them. Then traveling through the island over snowcapped peaks? Where no person had ever done it? Ah leave it out lads, they're making it up. Its impossible.


  • #40
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Bambi wrote: »
    Nah I get the connection with Shackleton being British hence your infatuation with having him recognised as a great irishman. :)

    I'd prefer Lynam for that role, nice 'tache, well mannered. Didn't risk a load of lads lives just to try get one over Dickie Davies. That's a hero.
    They weren't obliged to go were they?
    Had they not gone with Shackleton they would probably have been asked to participate in WW1 . Some did upon their return.
    The thing that stands out about those times is that once the ship was lost they were the only people on the Anatarctic continent - no communications with the rest of the world - no one knew of their situation - it was just themselves.
    I remember reading that, after their rescue, Shackleton asked if the war was over - and he was told no, it was still raging with huge numbers being killed.


  • #41
    jelutong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭jelutong


    What he did may have been heroic in his own small world but not in the overall scheme of things.


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  • #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-should-reclaim-ernest-shackleton-as-an-irish-hero-1.2045519


  • #43
    lawlolawl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭lawlolawl


    Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »
    The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare ....

    No wonder he spent so much time in the Antarctic.

    Anything to get out of that kip of a town.


  • #44
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-should-reclaim-ernest-shackleton-as-an-irish-hero-1.2045519


    "It’s not for me as an outsider to say who should Ireland commemorate and whose statues they should put up but I would say, if asked, yes, I really think they should" :pac:


  • #45
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    http://shackletonexhibition.com/

    This was in Dun Laoghaire until fairly recently.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »
    The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare has the only permanent exhibition dedicated to Shackleton, since he was born nearby.

    Passed it a few months back on way to a removal on a Sunday evening alright. Would like to see it.


  • #47
    souter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 634 ✭✭✭souter


    The guy that actually built and sailed on the boat Shackleton rode to glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McNish

    Didn't get a medal, died in poverty in New Zealand.


  • #48
    stoneill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Wibbs wrote: »
    #showingmyage The first time I can remember hearing of Shackleton and his expedition was from watching an early 1980's BBC Pebble Mill at One recurring spot where one of their reporters went to the South Atlantic, visited the Falklands and talked long and in some depth about the Shackleton expedition and incredible rescue(Crean was mentioned too). They used the incredible photos and film from the expedition itself and visited a few of the original sites. This TV thing was just before the Falklands war kicked off, so when that did viewers in the UK(and the small numbers over here in Ireland with pipe TV like myself) were pre informed about an otherwise previously publicly unknown place. These days there'd likely be a conspiracy theory wheeled out to explain that :D
    \
    I remember watch that too during school lunch break.
    I though he was saying Falcon Islands.
    Presented by Bob Langley I think.


  • #49
    Lt Dan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭Lt Dan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

    He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

    In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognize Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

    While Crean served in the British Navy, and had family in the RIC (who died in the Tan War), Shakelton was Anglo Irish ,and was in complete support of Britain. I suppose that might be why Ireland neglects him

    He sure was brave. You watching that BBC programme about him ?

    Sure Lord Kitchner was born in Kerry, he would not have seen himself as Irish, far from it in fact.

    Monty had some connections to Ireland too


  • #50
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    Earnest sounds like he led an interesting life alright. Is there something wrong with me in that I feel zero pride in any of this 1916 stuff, or care? Should it not be looked back at as a lesson for what not to do, i.e. trying to resolve situations through violence? We should be proud of the fact that Western Europe is at peace now for the first time in a long time, instead of fondly remembering our violent past.


  • #51
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

    But, but, but he was English and besides he was of Quaker stock was he not.
    For a long time in Ireland (see our education system from foundation of the state right up to recent enough) to be an Irish hero one had to have usually fought the English and probably been a Catholic.
    Wolfe Tone was one of the exceptions.
    Parnell was another, but when he was mentioned in school I remember how his long term affair was usually mentioned quiet soon afterwards.
    A Catholic hero wouldn't have let himself be having affairs and the like.

    I reckon some posters still hang on to that mindset.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

    Actually his heroism wasn't celebrated in Britain either.
    Chasing impossible dreams in the Antarctic was not considered noteworthy when millions were dying on the battlefields on Europe.
    Besides Scott was considered the greater since a more British thing to do is celebrate gallant plucky failures in comparison to successes.
    Amundsen realised this as well when he found out Scott had perished.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognise Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

    As a Kerryman you should not forget Tom Crean was not celebrated until quiet recently (his statue in Annascaul only appearing this century).
    After he retired to Kerry he basically hid for the rest of his life his Polar explorer medals and his involvement with some of the most spectacular Antarctic expeditions.

    Kerry was a hotbed of republicanism and someone who served the British crown wouldn't have been always welcome reliving his adventures for King and Empire.
    souter wrote: »
    The guy that actually built and sailed on the boat Shackleton rode to glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McNish

    Didn't get a medal, died in poverty in New Zealand.

    "Chippy" McNish was not liked by Shackleton and he was seen as a pessimist and bad influence.
    He had refused to pull the lifeboats at one stage, which could be seen as mutiny of sorts.
    Supposedly McNish had a chip on his shoulder (pardon the pun) because Shackelton ordered his cat be shot because he wouldn't survive on the ice or couldn't be fed.
    Crean on the other hand actually killed his own dogs for the same reason.

    Some believe he was brought on the James Caird to South Georgia because of his bad attitude rather than just being the guy who could help fix it at sea.

    A lot of people, including Macklin, thought it petty of Shackleton to deny McNish the Polar medal and there was a campaign at one stage to posthumously award the medal.
    Maybe that incident showed another petty side of Shackleton's character ?

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • #52
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    jmayo wrote: »
    Kerry was a hotbed of republicanism and someone who served the British crown wouldn't have been always welcome reliving his adventures for King and Empire.
    His pub was called the South Pole! Talk about hiding in plain sight.
    Shackleton was petty and vindictive not really Irish and to celebrate his 'Oirish routes' means to turn the spotlight onto his brother an homosexual sex maniac who stole the 'Oirish crown jules!'
    Deleted User wrote: »
    You don't get the connection between self sacrifice for some nationalist ideal, whether Irish or British, and someone going completely against the grain and the preservation of the lives of his men above all else, at the same time?
    The original head of British Counterintelligence was from Kerry . Was he a hero?
    He was a traitor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Melville


  • #53
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    Dr Crayfish wrote: »
    Earnest sounds like he led an interesting life alright. Is there something wrong with me in that I feel zero pride in any of this 1916 stuff, or care?
    Definitely. You might suffer from profound alienation and disconnection from the broader society which may be indicative of a chemical imbalance in your brain. You should talk to your GP as an SSRI (like Prozac or probably one of the successor drugs) could have a positive impact on your engagement with other people and your community.

    There is a great resource from boards:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75955119


  • #54
    thegreatgonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭thegreatgonzo


    Wasn't Kenneth Branagh in a film about him a few years ago?


  • #55
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Wibbs wrote: »
    #showingmyage The first time I can remember hearing of Shackleton and his expedition was from watching an early 1980's BBC Pebble Mill at One recurring spot where one of their reporters went to the South Atlantic, visited the Falklands and talked long and in some depth about the Shackleton expedition and incredible rescue(Crean was mentioned too). They used the incredible photos and film from the expedition itself and visited a few of the original sites. This TV thing was just before the Falklands war kicked off, so when that did viewers in the UK(and the small numbers over here in Ireland with pipe TV like myself) were pre informed about an otherwise previously publicly unknown place. These days there'd likely be a conspiracy theory wheeled out to explain that :D

    I remember that Wibbs. I think they also mentioned Argentinas claim on the Falklands and worried that they only had one Navy vessel in the region? Am I right?


  • #56
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    kidneyfan wrote: »
    His pub was called the South Pole! Talk about hiding in plain sight.
    Shackleton was petty and vindictive not really Irish and to celebrate his 'Oirish routes' means to turn the spotlight onto his brother an homosexual sex maniac who stole the 'Oirish crown jules!'


    The original head of British Counterintelligence was from Kerry . Was he a hero?
    He was a traitor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Melville

    Nasty post there. Regarding your 'traitor' - what county was he a traitor to?


  • #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kidneyfan wrote: »
    His pub was called the South Pole! Talk about hiding in plain sight.
    Shackleton was petty and vindictive not really Irish and to celebrate his 'Oirish routes' means to turn the spotlight onto his brother an homosexual sex maniac who stole the 'Oirish crown jules!'

    The original head of British Counterintelligence was from Kerry . Was he a hero?
    He was a traitor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Melville

    We celebrate Roger Casement. Indeed for the exact same reason we should celebrate Shackleton, because their heroism transcended national issues and politics (I am in particular referring to casement's work in the Congo, not his 1916 exploits).

    Not sure why the link to Melville. Are you saying Shackleton was a traitor? Actually, like him or not, Melville is Irish, but my point is not that we must celebrate all Irish men.


  • #58
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    LorMal wrote: »
    Nasty post there. Regarding your 'traitor' - what county was he a traitor to?
    He was a traitor to Ireland.


  • #59
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We celebrate Roger Casement. Indeed for the exact same reason we should celebrate Shackleton, because their heroism transcended national issues and politics (I am in particular referring to casement's work in the Congo, not his 1916 exploits).

    Not sure why the link to Melville. Are you saying Shackleton was a traitor? Actually, like him or not, Melville is Irish, but my point is not that we must celebrate all Irish men.
    Casement was a hero who died for Ireland. He spent his life fighting against oppression. Shackleton was certainly brave but
    [1] we celebrate Tom Crean instead
    [2] Shackleton was motivated by a desire for personal glory (which is morally neutral) and imperial glory (which is contemptible)


  • #60
    Buona Fortuna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Who was even going to check that they'd got all the way?

    "Yeah got there. Not much to see and fcuking freezin"


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  • #61
    tipptom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    [QUOTE=kidneyfan;99833050]His pub was called the South Pole! Talk about hiding in plain sight.
    Shackleton was petty and vindictive not really Irish and to celebrate his 'Oirish routes' means to turn the spotlight onto his brother an homosexual sex maniac who stole the 'Oirish crown jules!'


    The original head of British Counterintelligence was from Kerry . Was he a hero?
    He was a traitor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Melville[/QUOTE]
    "Buy an aul pub when you retire Tom,sure no one will see you there especially in Ireland,sure nobody goes to a pub over there".


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