Shackleton, the greatest Irish hero?

21-05-2016 10:42PM #1

Do we gloss over Earnest Shackleton when we talk about Irish heroes?

He was a man who was possibly out of nation in that he was born here but raised in England from the age of 10. And out of time, whose heroism was unrecognised when those in the country of his birth gave up their lives after the 1916 Rising. And those in the country he went to gave up their lives in pursuit of the Victorian ideal of colonisation and country before self, like his fellow adventurer Scott, or tens of thousands were dying in the Somme. His return went almost ignored at the time. Yet his achievement was a far more modern ideal and transcended national pride, he gave up his dream and the pursuit of glory to ensure his men got home, and took the greatest risks in doing so.

In this era when we all embrace Tom Crean and his stoicism in following Shackleton, should we not do more to recognise Shackleton himself and his Irish roots? Should we not be seeing more documentaries on Irish tv, more books, more effort by the National Museum to collate gear and documents from his adventures, more effort to tell Irish people that one of ours espoused the greatest heroism of all and saved lives instead of ending them?

Gwynplaine · 21-05-2016 10:53PM

Marty Morrissey gets my vote. Legend.

Stigura · 21-05-2016 11:08PM

Are allowed to include Paddy Mayne? A f**king legend, for coming out with: " When ye simply must kill everyone in the room ....? " I mean, for that alone!

failinis · 21-05-2016 11:11PM

You just gave me a great idea about another Irish adventurer - ta!

But I think maybe the museums here having a bit more of his things would nice and some mention of it in schools and the like would be good, but not to go over board on it all.

Arsemageddon · 21-05-2016 11:38PM

Shackleton is pretty well known to anyone with an interest in that period. I don't think you could say that he was airbrushed out of history, but he has certainly been discussed a lot more in the last few years. By Endurance We Conquer is a fantastic biography.

SEPT 23 1989 · 21-05-2016 11:43PM

Airbrushed?

Anything they considered not Irish in their narrow little view was burnt and destroyed

Arsemageddon · 21-05-2016 11:45PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Airbrushed?

Anything they considered not Irish in their narrow little view was burnt and destroyed

Who are they?

lawlolawl · 21-05-2016 11:53PM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Who are they?

Dem bois

Duckworth_Luas · 21-05-2016 11:58PM

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

cml387 · 22-05-2016 12:03AM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

Well the British did name a long range reconnaisance aircraft after him, so he wasn't exactly airbrushed out of history.

I hadn't heard of Tom Crean until the Guinness ad.

22-05-2016 12:07AM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

Shackleton and his Irish roots were well known to me in primary school. He, and Crean to a lesser extent, were often the subject of articles in those school magazines we used to get in the 80s and 90s. The idea that there was some kind of coverup is hilarious.

It's certainly true that Shackleton's heroism was not broadcast at the time, it was considered to be pretty much the antithesis of the heroism of those slaughtered in the Somme whose selflessness was more allied with Scott, and was not treated as "good news".

As a student in the 80s, don't think his name was ever mentioned in Irish history lessons. Not that that would be surprising, his exploits were not really relevant to our history. But outside the narrow focus of Irish history, maybe it's time we really promoted him as the ultimate Irish hero. Now that would not necessarily mean the greatest Irish person, for me Yeats still holds that accolade, but he was an incredible and remarkable person...

Dyr · 22-05-2016 12:16AM

Having whinged and bellyached that poor tom crean did'nt get enough recognition in comparison to anyone remotely in the birth of this nation (presumably a quota) are we now moving onto shackleton?

We'll be up at Des Lynam by christmas at this rate

jluv · 22-05-2016 12:21AM

As much as I hate to admit this, the first I knew of him was in a bar in NY which was called Shackletons and had a lot of pics and memorabilia. Don't know if it's still there.

22-05-2016 12:26AM

Bambi wrote: »

Having whinged and bellyached that poor tom crean did'nt get enough recognition in comparison to anyone remotely in the birth of this nation (presumably a quota) are we now moving onto shackleton?

We'll be up at Des Lynam by christmas at this rate

Trying to think of how many Lynam saved, or his obvious heroism. Failing. Enlighten me.

Dyr · 22-05-2016 12:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying to think of how many Lynam saved, or his obvious heroism. Failing. Enlighten me.

The great Des saved many Saturdays for millions of viewers

So now you can perhaps enlighten everyone as to what an arctic explorer has to do with the 1916 rising other than the usual mingy whinging.

After that you can explain how putting someones life at risk in the first place for your own ego is saving them

22-05-2016 12:52AM

Bambi wrote: »

The great Des saved many Saturdays for millions of viewers

So now you can perhaps enlighten everyone as to what an arctic explorer has to do with the 1916 rising other than the usual mingy whinging.

After that you can explain how putting someones life at risk in the first place for your own ego is saving them

You don't get the connection between self sacrifice for some nationalist ideal, whether Irish or British, and someone going completely against the grain and the preservation of the lives of his men above all else, at the same time?

None?

Nada?

If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

beauf · 22-05-2016 12:53AM

Most people don't know about this part of the party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Sea_party_1914%E2%80%9316

Arsemageddon · 22-05-2016 01:00AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If not, this thread is evidently not for you.

With respect, you don't get to decide who should post in a thread based on whether or not they agree with you.

indioblack · 22-05-2016 01:10AM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The British airbrushed Shackleton out of history and concentrated on Scott. Shackleton's amazing achievement in saving all his men was consider inferior to Scott's achievement in marching his subordinates to a certain death while maintaining a stiff upper lip.

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

22-05-2016 06:52AM

Arsemageddon wrote: »

With respect, you don't get to decide who should post in a thread based on whether or not they agree with you.

No.

When I said "this thread is not for you" I wasn't suggesting censorship, merely "you don't really get it, do you".

And anyone who repteatedly argues that Shackleton compares with Des Lynam doesn't really get it, do they?

pickarooney · 22-05-2016 08:50AM

indioblack wrote: »

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

Who was even going to check that they'd got all the way?

silverharp · 22-05-2016 09:44AM

George Orwell was born in India I doubt Indian's bother to claim him as a great Indian writer.

22-05-2016 09:52AM

silverharp wrote: »

George Orwell was born in India I doubt Indian's bother to claim him as a great Indian writer.

The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 22-05-2016 10:05AM

beauf wrote: »

Most people don't know about this part of the party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Sea_party_1914%E2%80%9316

I think you'll find many know about it and have read the huge best seller "The Lost Men".

silverharp · 22-05-2016 10:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The house where he was born is actually a national monument there, as well as a museum..

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/british-novelist-george-orwell-motihari-bihar/1/438537.html

im not suggesting anyone like this is airbrushed out of local history. Orwell though doesnt show up this wiki list of "indian writers" , he is rightly viewed as being a product of British culture who happened to be born in India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_writers

Joe_ Public · 22-05-2016 10:14AM

indioblack wrote: »

A long time since I read about Scott and Shackleton - but if Scott was leading his party to certain death why leave food depots for the return journey from the south pole?
If I remember correctly there was an earlier expedition by Shackleton to reach the south pole - just as remarkable as his later attempt to cross Antarctica.
He marched his party to within 60 miles of the pole and turned back as he feared his people could not reach the pole and survive the return journey.
After having travelled so far and nearly reaching his destination it was a remarkably brave and humane command decision.

A while since I read about them too, have had Michael Smith's book on Shackleton on my radar for ages and must finally get round to it. From memory, I think it was the gas cannisters that ultimately did for Scott and his men, among other contributing flaws, they failed to understand that the tops expanded in the freezing temperatures and had started to leak by the time they reached them.

Personally, I don't hold that these guys were "heroes" in the strictest sense of the term, nor on the other hand, do I feel the need to equate their deeds to 1916 or the slaughter of the Somme. I think mostly they were driven by vanity and the wish for personal glory, much like those who led the conquest of Everest, and there's nothing much wrong with that. They were brave and fascinating individuals in their own right.

Incidentally, there was a good documentary on Radio One about 2 or 3 weeks back, on Seascapes I think, about the Irishman who found and bought Shackleton's hut. I think it is back in Athy now or at least that's what I took from it.

Wibbs · 22-05-2016 10:49AM

#showingmyage The first time I can remember hearing of Shackleton and his expedition was from watching an early 1980's BBC Pebble Mill at One recurring spot where one of their reporters went to the South Atlantic, visited the Falklands and talked long and in some depth about the Shackleton expedition and incredible rescue(Crean was mentioned too). They used the incredible photos and film from the expedition itself and visited a few of the original sites. This TV thing was just before the Falklands war kicked off, so when that did viewers in the UK(and the small numbers over here in Ireland with pipe TV like myself) were pre informed about an otherwise previously publicly unknown place. These days there'd likely be a conspiracy theory wheeled out to explain that

Capt'n Midnight · 22-05-2016 11:04AM

cml387 wrote: »

Well the British did name a long range reconnaisance aircraft after him, so he wasn't exactly airbrushed out of history.

Earnestly they named a boat after him too.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:780981/zoom:10

Manach · 22-05-2016 11:09AM

From reading the excellent "Endurance: Shackleton's Voyage to the Antarctic" by Lansing: gives an appreciation of the hardships that that trapped crew underwent and Shackleton's force of leadership that got them through. He would be a person who would be worth the study, for emulation and hard won life lessons.

indioblack · 22-05-2016 11:12AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Who was even going to check that they'd got all the way?

Wasn't there a big pole there?!
With a Union Jack on it - blast those Norwegians!

Badly Drunk Boy · 22-05-2016 11:15AM

failinis wrote: »

But I think maybe the museums here having a bit more of his things would nice and some mention of it in schools and the like would be good, but not to go over board on it all.

The Athy Heritage Centre-Museum in Co. Kildare has the only permanent exhibition dedicated to Shackleton, since he was born nearby.

Shackleton, the greatest Irish hero?

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