Key resellers & grey markets

K.O.Kiki · 18-05-2016 1:53pm #1

Because I don't want to derail the Doom thread, I thought it best to educate talk about this in a separate thread.

(copied from reddit/PCMR, click through for threads from people scammed on G2A/Kinguin)
Devolver Digital games purchased on @G2A_com are not legitimate, not guaranteed, and not supported. We are actively canceling those keys. - via Twitter

Natural Selection 2 developer deactivates over a thousand Steam keys, warns of "shady" resellers - PCGamer. Dev page on the issue.

Over 7,000 stolen Sniper Elite 3 Steam keys revoked - engadget

Riot bans key reseller G2A from sponsoring League teams - Destructoid

'Fraudulent' Elder Scrolls Online Steam keys revoked - Destructoid

Should you avoid buying game keys from sketchy resellers? - Techspot

TotalBiscuit on G2A - talks about key resellers for a couple minutes. After partnering with ChronoGG, TB learns how much of an impact a site like G2A can have on legitimate key sellers and developers.

Ubisoft kills copies of Far Cry 4 sold through third parties (Update) - Destructoid

30,000 Blackwell Deception keys revoked after giveaway exploit - Steam Gifts

Retailer Scam Re-Sells Humble Bundle Games, Reaps Profit Off Charity - Game Informer

How Steam key reselling is killing the little guys - Indie Game Stand (I thought this was an interesting read)

The Key Masters: Reselling and the Games Industry - Gamasutra

Safe sites (legitimate key resellers)
Amazon
Blizzard
Bundle Stars
GamersGate
Gamesplanet
Get Games Go
GOG
Groupees
Humble Bundle
Indie Gala
IndieGameStand
Origin
ShinyLoot
Steam
Ubisoft
GreenManGaming

Shower thoughts:

The very fact that you have to buy insurance to prevent an "invalid" key should be a straight-up red flag that site X is not legit.
G2A & Kinguin are the same entity.
Just because you've bought from site X before doesn't make it legal. See also: key resellers selling MSDN licenses for Windows/Microsoft products.
Be informed about the sites you buy from.
If you're still going to give these sites money, at the very least use PayPal for some protection.

Heart Break Kid · 18-05-2016 2:29pm

Always thought G2A keys were keys bought from jurisdictions that had favorable currency exchange rates such as Russian keys. Have used G2A a dozen or so times for games like WOW and GW2. After reading a few of the links, I'm surprised Twitch allow streamers to promote G2A.

Icyseanfitz · 18-05-2016 3:01pm

I've used g2play a fair amount, can't say I've ever had any trouble with any key I've ever gotten from there

Dcully · 18-05-2016 3:09pm

Have bought over 20 games from them or similar sellers, all games still working fine.

gizmo · 18-05-2016 3:10pm

The article you linked from Paul Kilduff-Taylor, The Key Masters: Reselling and the Games Industry, is probably the best article on the subject so far. It's pretty level headed and well researched piece and gets a nice mix of opinions on the matter including solicitors, developers and the key sellers themselves. The replies from the G2A representatives in response to the comments from Sheridans are also interesting, to say the least.

Personally, after the Humble key resale issue, I wouldn't touch any of the 7 Entertainment sites with a barge pole as a matter of principle. On the other hand, if a key-based retailer wants to bulk purchase keys from legitimate sources and pass on the savings to customers then that's bloody great, more power to them. Said retailers buying keys from countries with favourable exchange rates or lower prices which reflect their economic climate and then reselling them over here for a nice profit isn't something I'm a fan of on any kind of scale though.

In general though, I find the more interesting question in this debate isn't really "is the key I bought working fine", it's "who is getting shafted in order for me to get this cheap key" and the obvious follow up, "do I care?".

Icyseanfitz · 18-05-2016 3:11pm

There is an awful amount of scare tactics used to try to stop people from using them

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2016 3:11pm

Bought keys dozens before. Never had any problem with them.

What I do have a problem with is publishers ignoring free market rules and enforcing regional pricing and region locking on the basis of bull**** claims like different rating systems.

Even if I do get caught called up for it I'll lose a game (I'll never use a VPN, that's a straight up ban from a service). That's not much compared to everything I've saved.

18-05-2016 3:20pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What I do have a problem with is publishers ignoring free market rules and enforcing regional pricing and region locking on the basis of bull**** claims like different rating systems.
.

it's a pain but it's standard in business - "value-based pricing" is what it's called - basically means extract the max on a what-someone-can-pay rationale in a particular market or particular situation.

Cordell · 18-05-2016 3:21pm

You didn't have any troubles because most of the times developers/publishers don't bother to ban or deactivate keys that are not used as stated in the initial sale terms, i.e. keys that are discounted for some countries used in some other countries. But sometimes they do.
I mean, it has to be something wrong with those keys, surely you have thought about that. And if we go a bit towards the legal side, you are not actually buying the game, but a licence. That means that you enter into an agreement with the copyright holder to user their copyrighted work. If you do that behind their back (sort to speak) you don't actually get a valid right to use their work, so it's almost as bad as piracy. Sometimes even worse than piracy, as totalbiscut explained in the video, totally worth watching btw.

mahoganygas · 18-05-2016 3:24pm

Does being found with a dodgy key mean losing the game or losing your steam account entirely?

Any other repercussions? Can you be investigated/account put on hold etc?

If a friend gifts me a dodgy a key, who is the wrong?

Thx

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2016 3:29pm

Cordell wrote: »

And if we go a bit towards the legal side, you are not actually buying the game, but a licence. That means that you enter into an agreement with the copyright holder to user their copyrighted work. If you do that behind their back (sort to speak) you don't actually get a valid right to use their work, so it's almost as bad as piracy. Sometimes even worse than piracy, as totalbiscut explained in the video, totally worth watching btw.

It's a complete bastardisation of copyright law though that is slowly being eroded in the EU. EU law is much more protective of it. US law favours big corporations so you don't have a leg to stand on there. I mean it would be absolutely insane to apply that to a physical good and the only reason copyright law like that is in place is a hang over from the 70's when they didn't know what to do with software as it was copied over to RAM so needed a stop gap measure that never got fixed and is now being abused.

You're absolutely right though but doesn't men the publishers are correct either. I won't be losing sleep over what is effectively shopping around that publishers are twisting the law to suit themselves and deem it copyright infringement.

Cordell · 18-05-2016 3:32pm

I won't be losing sleep

Me neither, regardless of the way I'm getting my games

I never use grey, it's all black and white for me, if you know what I mean.

SeantheMan · 18-05-2016 3:40pm

I'm still gonna buy from them (not G2A....G2PLay are my go-to guys...have been for 7 years now) and never had a problem.
Even if 1 of the games get's revoked, the amount I've saved to date and in future means it's cost effective to keep buying that way.

Also, the games are still priced at $60 on Steam.
But I remember the old discussions about prices. So much for marketing, so much for publishers, so much packaging, so much for physical stores etc etc
You would get a physical copy of your game, a box, maybe a little trinket, hopefully a nice manual or backstory comic/book.
But they cut all that out and still charge top dollar. Obviously they have to give STEAM something...but surely it's minimal compared to what it was sending physical copies to GAME etc years ago (I understand it's still done for consoles these days)

18-05-2016 3:52pm

Last one I got was Quantum break, was around €40ish from CDKeys and €69.99 from the Xbox Dashboard. I'd love to know how the numbers break down and what % goes where in terms of disc, key, download from official stores. I would assume MS/Sony and the publisher get a fixed number and the flexibility in price comes from the retailers cut and in the case of keys favourable exchange rates?

Shiminay · 18-05-2016 3:53pm

Steam gets 30% of everything sold on the store AFAIK - MASSIVE money for them and quite possibly more of a markup than a bricks & mortar would get when they factor in logistical costs.

I had a Far Cry 4 key get revoked (and subsequently restored) when that was a thing. I think it was Kinguin I'd used on that occasion. Since the whole issue blew up, I try to only buy from the guaranteed sites listed above - it's better for everyone to try and reward good practice.

ShooterSF · 18-05-2016 5:38pm

All against stolen keys obviously. But re: reselling, well how about I use some terminology the entertainment industry understands, I won't "download" a car

if you admit you wouldn't sell me a car and then complaining that I sold it on for a profit. Well not to a judge anyways...

FAILSAFE 00 · 18-05-2016 6:46pm

I bought loads of keys from G2A and CDKEYS without any issue. Many people don't understand that G2A is a marketplace for multiple sellers. I have never had to pay insurance on a key due to purchasing from sellers that have great feedback.

I also bought a load of keys from Kinguin with no issues using the same process as G2A.

Quite frankly posters like the OP only serve to scaremonger people into purchasing games at stupidly high prices.

johnny_ultimate · 18-05-2016 7:05pm

Can't bring myself to buy from any of the super discount sites. Honestly, when I buy a game I above all like to know a fair and deserving amount goes to the developers - and sadly that's not something I can guarantee with the unauthorised resellers. I'm not saying they're all up to shadiness beyond taking clever advantage of regional pricing disparities, but at the same time the lack of transparency when it comes to the line of supply is not something I agree with. I don't like getting ripped off either, but frankly I rarely feel RRP is OTT - and if I do I'll just wait until it is something unreasonable.

Given the majority of the new games I buy are independent ones, I'm particularly satisfied to pay through 'standard' channels there as I reckon indies are the ones suffering most from resellers. Hell, given the trend of aggressive discounting seen these days anyway all titles, even AAA ones, are usually available at very attractive prices very quickly - and again the publishers have control over all that. One can always just wait a few weeks for a better price from the authorised sellers. And I completely respect the right of people like Jonathan Blow, or the Axiom Verge / Shovel Knight teams to set their own prices and discounts - that's their call, and if I don't think it's fair I just don't buy it.

Honestly, I'd much rather a cut of the price goes towards Humble (and charities) or even Valve over 'Omnyex E Commerce DMCC' (aka CD Keys) as I know much more on what they're about - that's even taking into account the undeniably healthy cut Valve takes. Grey markets will always exist, and I'm sure very few of them are trading in truly dodgy keys. But they're still 'grey', and for that reason I personally just avoid them.

JD1763 · 18-05-2016 7:11pm

Games used to cost 44.99 for a physical copy now Steam is charging 59.99 for a digital copy. Digital distribution through Steam does not incur the same overheads as physical distribution, yet the consumer has not seen any price benefit. This is why people buy from key resellers and why they will continue to do so no matter how many articles and forum posts are made about the risks of doing so.

Publishers need to learn that anti-competitive practices and pricing differentials will only incentivise people to use other means to obtain products. This is the reality of the digital age and a globalised market. The high prices charged for games on Steam have created the demand for resellers but instead of amending their own anti-competitive practices publishers insist on these price differentials across markets. Why should consumers in Europe pay more for the same digital product when customers in other markets are paying less for the exact same thing through the exact same distribution network?

Retr0gamer · 18-05-2016 7:15pm

I've only ever bought triple A games through resellers. I find indie prices are fair but triple A games on the likes of steam are taking the piss considering they are more expensive than retail physical releases.

JD1763 · 18-05-2016 7:20pm

Just one more point on this look at the Steam storefront right now:
Totalwar Warhammer 59.99
Civilisation 6 59.99
Doom 59.99

Now look at Blizzard:
Overwatch 39.99
Overwatch Origins 59.99

That is sensible pricing for a base game and I would be happy to purchase through Blizzards front end at that level. But there is no way I'm paying 60 for any of those other titles.

FAILSAFE 00 · 18-05-2016 7:30pm

Its important to remember the vast amount of keys purchased from resellers are completely above board.

Resellers typically make very low profit margins and rely on bulk sales.

Just because Steam sells games at premium price points does not mean that resellers are selling dodgy keys. Steam simply sells them at a premium because they can. Their profit margin is way bigger than resellers.

JD1763 · 18-05-2016 7:45pm

Agree with you completely and have used Kinguin to purchase keys for quite a few games without any issues at all. Was just making the point, perhaps badly, that key sellers have created a legitimate market for savvy consumers to pick up titles at a lower price. While there may be risks to using some sellers as there have been cases of stolen keys, these would seem to be the minority and happens in all walks of life. But like you said checking reviews and who you are buying from on the marketplace goes a long way to mitigating this.

Canis Lupus · 19-05-2016 1:13am

Kinguin user here. I don't buy games that require VPNs or steam gift games but other than that I've not had a problem with any game I've bought.

I've bought them all knowing the slim risk involved but frankly the alternative for me is the "inlet of criminal seafarers". So the developers can get what they get from a genuine sale of a key albeit from a different region or they get nothing.

Digital Solitude · 19-05-2016 1:49am

Cross region sales are a big **** you to devs imo. If a game is 30% cheaper in Russia or Brazil because their economy sucks, and devs know that's a reasonable price to sell their product in that region, while smart business its fairly sound too.

Mightn't be fair to pay extra in the EU but we're not comuninists, more money, more disposable income so a higher price balances out

dg19 · 19-05-2016 10:56am

Is it possible to get games for ireland on g2a or similar PS4 i dont want to buy wrong ones

K.O.Kiki · 19-05-2016 12:40pm

Wow.
http://imgur.com/a/HcSG4

How to unsubscribe from G2A Shield

First, you have to check all these buttons, and click the gray button

Then you have to pick a reason

They try to bring you back in with a discount

Confirm again, that you are in fact a complete maniac who doesn't want the great G2A Shield for 2 euros a month

And again

Now you have to dig out your credit card and confirm the last four digits

And your email

Now wait 20 mins

AND NOW YOU CAN FINALLY UNSUBSCRIBE, JESUS CHRIST

Skerries · 19-05-2016 12:46pm

but are you sure you want to leave?

FAILSAFE 00 · 19-05-2016 12:51pm

I save myself time by not signing up to G2A shield in the first place

Over 30 purchases and I have never used G2A shield. I use good ole reliable feedback and have never had an issue with a key.

Canis Lupus · 19-05-2016 12:59pm

Try harder Kokiki..or should I say Gabe!

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 1:04pm

Digital Solitude wrote: »

Cross region sales are a big **** you to devs imo. If a game is 30% cheaper in Russia or Brazil because their economy sucks, and devs know that's a reasonable price to sell their product in that region, while smart business its fairly sound too.

Mightn't be fair to pay extra in the EU but we're not comuninists, more money, more disposable income so a higher price balances out

Check the tag on your underwear. Tell me if it's not coming from some heavily exploited third world country.

It's called the free market.

Digital Solitude · 19-05-2016 1:09pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Check the tag on your underwear. Tell me if it's not coming from some heavily exploited third world country.

It's called the free market.

Not really a free market if regional restrictions are in place though. Likening a digital licence for a product developed most likely in a first world country to physical goods from Taiwan doesn't really work either.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 1:13pm

Digital Solitude wrote: »

Not really a free market if regional restrictions are in place though. Likening a digital licence for a product developed most likely in a first world country to physical goods from Taiwan doesn't really work either.

Regional restrictions though are just a bastardisation of digital copyright laws that publishers are using to be anti consumer. If you applied that to an physical product it would be illegal. They only get away with it due to archaic copyright legislation.

Also you'd be surprised how much of a games development is carried out by contractors in China and India these days

Digital Solitude · 19-05-2016 1:20pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Regional restrictions though are just a bastardisation of digital copyright laws that publishers are using to be anti consumer. If you applied that to an physical product it would be illegal. They only get away with it due to archaic copyright legislation.

Are they really that anti consumer? I'm not at all saying my view on it is correct and there's definitely a large piece of the picture I don't see, but my view on it so far is that it's fair enough to charge what you like in different regions.

Are peoples problems with it that devs themselves are enforcing the pricing, instead instead of differing taxes in regions affecting it (among other things), similar to how PC parts are fairly cheap in the US and expensive as hell in Oz.

Also you'd be surprised how much of a games development is carried out by contractors in China and India these days

I'll take that fair enough, I have no backup to what I said but a general guess.

johnny_ultimate · 19-05-2016 1:54pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Check the tag on your underwear. Tell me if it's not coming from some heavily exploited third world country.

It's called the free market.

I'm not sure if comparisons to the exploitation of workers in the clothing industry is exactly the argument to win over those who are on the fence about key sellers :pac:

No question digital copyright law needs a proper, thorough revision. But at the same time I don't see regional pricing differences as being particularly different from what happens 'IRL'. Identical products vary wildly in price from place to place - a can of Coke will be more expensive in Scandanvia than it is here, while it be cheaper in Eastern Europe. It's to reflect the economic conditions in the individual countries.

While the 'borderless' (I use the term lightly, as there are obviously still tax concerns to take into account) digital marketplace is a theoretically different beast, it's also fair to say it can't exactly sustain a 'one size fits all' model. Can US or Japanese developers and publishers really be expected to sustain themselves at Russian prices globally? Can consumers in Eastern Europe be expected to pay Western European prices?

None of this is to say some of the RRP of new games on Steam and the like aren't somewhat inflated here in Ireland to match retail prices. And honestly my primary issue with key sellers remains the lack of transparency with most of them (if it was more clear who I was giving money to, I'd be far more open to them). But even with the archaic nature of copyright law, I don't think some degree of regional disparities in pricing is an outrageous or unfair prospect.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 1:59pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Regional restrictions though are just a bastardisation of digital copyright laws that publishers are using to be anti consumer. If you applied that to an physical product it would be illegal.

Because software is not a physical product, it's more like a service. You don't own a game as you own a pair of knickers, you only buy the right to use it.

And how is it anti-consumer to discount the price in some regions? I would say that it is actually very much pro consumer, pro consumers in those regions. If this practice is banned it will mean same price for everybody, and what price will that be? The full one or the discounted one? Take a guess.

FAILSAFE 00 · 19-05-2016 2:01pm

Cordell wrote: »

Because software is not a physical product, it's more like a service. You don't own a game as you own a pair of knickers, you only buy the right to use it.
...

You should though. Its very anti-consumer to have it any other way.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 2:05pm

Even with them knickers, you don't fully own them. You can wear them, soil them, but you cannot use them as a template to make some more. Their design is (very likely) copyrighted.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 2:24pm

Cordell wrote: »

Even with them knickers, you don't fully own them. You can wear them, soil them, but you cannot use them as a template to make some more. Their design is (very likely) copyrighted.

the only reason you don't own software but rather a license is to get around the fact that the software is copied to RAM when you use it. It was a stop gap legal measure that was never rectified and publishers are just taking the piss exploiting that now.

If you wanted to go into EULA's even selling your PS3 games on ebay would be deemed copyright infringement.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 2:44pm

It's an interesting story, but not true at all. Copying to RAM will not be a violation of copyright because it is an authorized copy so there is no need for stop gap legal measures.
It's not just the software that you don't own. Books: you own the paper, the glue and the ink, but not the material written on them. Game CD/DVDs: you own the disc and the case but not the game recorded on those discs.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 4:35pm

Cordell wrote: »

It's an interesting story, but not true at all. Copying to RAM will not be a violation of copyright because it is an authorized copy so there is no need for stop gap legal measures.

Actually, no you'd be wrong there. Normally you can't create a copy of a copyrighted work unless you have a license to copy it. To run software though a copy has to be made to RAM. To get around that when this first came up you are granted a license to use that software and create that copy rather than own the that actual copy of the copyrighted work. It hasn't changed much since which is were all the issues and loop holes stem from.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 4:49pm

Not really, a temporary copy in RAM is not, by any means, a violation of copyright, there is no mentioning about this in the wiki link you posted and basically it is the first time I hear such a motive for having licence instead of ownership (and I'm fairly familiar with software licences). But this is way beyond the topic of this thread.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 5:04pm

Sorry, correct wiki link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license#Software_licenses_and_copyright_law

Cordell · 19-05-2016 5:42pm

Still doesn't say what you say it says

Anyway this has nothing to do with the grey market keys. Lots of those keys are either stolen or purchased with stolen credit cards, and in this case corporate greed and copyright laws have nothing to do with it.

Retr0gamer · 19-05-2016 6:02pm

It's right here:

In the United States, Section 117 of the Copyright Act gives the owner of a particular copy of software the explicit right to use the software with a computer, even if use of the software with a computer requires the making of incidental copies or adaptations (acts which could otherwise potentially constitute copyright infringement). Therefore, the owner of a copy of computer software is legally entitled to use that copy of software. Hence, if the end-user of software is the owner of the respective copy, then the end-user may legally use the software without a license from the software publisher.

Incidental copies or adaptations refers to software being copied to random access memory.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 6:09pm

Well, yes, it says what I've said: incidental copy is not a violation. It doesn't say that we have licence in place of ownership because of incidental copies - and this was the point of our disagreement and what you claimed. Splitting the hair

JD1763 · 19-05-2016 7:33pm

Price differentials are anti-consumer. Any artificial distortion of market prices is interfering in the market plain and simple. What publishers have refused to acknowledge is that in the modern digital world enforcing regional differentials will only lead people to seek ways around it. Rational consumers will always seek to purchase from the lowest cost supplier that is only logical. This is how an efficient market operates.

Cordell · 19-05-2016 9:06pm

I agree that the practice is not compatible with a global free market, but not that it is anti-consumer. They do it for the consumers with a lower purchasing power. Or maybe it can be considered anti-consumer because lower prices are actually subsidized by the ones paying the full amount...

dunworth1 · 20-05-2016 9:46am

i always use cdkeys.com and g2a never had any problems.

as long as the publishers/devs continue to screw us here for games i will continue to use the cheapest means to get them

Sonics2k · 20-05-2016 10:30am

Over the years I've used Kinguin and Gamers Outlet, now I personally haven't had any problems and have been happy, but my best mate did have a Fallout 4 key revoked from Steam.

We both understand there is a fair risk involved in buying the keys, and while most of them are legit, some of them are not. So there is a little bit of buyer beware involved in the whole thing.

gizmo · 20-05-2016 11:45am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

While the 'borderless' (I use the term lightly, as there are obviously still tax concerns to take into account) digital marketplace is a theoretically different beast, it's also fair to say it can't exactly sustain a 'one size fits all' model. Can US or Japanese developers and publishers really be expected to sustain themselves at Russian prices globally? Can consumers in Eastern Europe be expected to pay Western European prices?

This appears to be what people are suggesting, regional pricing is anti-consumer. It's a point I find rather interesting really because if prices were to be standardised, taking into consideration development costs and the countries where most sales are made, the most logical result is that it would be done so to the level, or at least relatively close to it, of current Western prices. If that were to happen, you'd effectively be locking out consumers from developing nations from being able to purchase games. Wouldn't that still be anti-consumer or would people just not care because they no longer feel hard done by because someone else is getting the same product for less?

Key resellers & grey markets

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