Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

meathhurler48 wrote: »

We have history with this ref. going back to an u-21 v Tipp in Thurles. We suffered at his hands all evening. Owen Whelan came on at half-time. He lasted 10 minutes before two yellows for harmless frees had him back in the dugout. Despite this we were only 2 points down entering injury time. Maurice was charging into the square looking for a winning goal with three Tipp backs hanging out of him. Instead of a penalty Mr. Kiwani gave a free out. Tipp got a last minute goal to run out winners by five.
On our way out of the Kinnane Stand a few Tipp. supporters apologised and said that they didn't want to win games based on totally biased refereeing.
When I saw his name pop up last week I had serious forebodings and I wasn't wrong. Funny thing is that, I could be wrong on this, I thought that Kirwan was removed from the senior refs panel two years ago.
At any level Waterford should refuse to accept him as a referee in the futu

I was there that evening and he was indeed a disgrace. Read about it here from Giveitfong https://deiseach.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/waterford-1-16-19-tipperary-4-12-24-under-21-giveitfongs-view/

imgaine losing an all ireland/munster final like we did yesterday. We never do things easy in Waterford and if we are to win we will do it the hard way and already have dis year already

Vs Tipp (Last min free)
vs Wexford
we made hard work of it in Cork
We could of easily won/lost vs Galway

What senior panelists are on the under 21 squad this year ???

meathhurler48 wrote: »

No Carter 10. It was Kirwan. Just checked Munster GAA site.

Correct, see my 2nd post above

STIG83 wrote: »

No need for it really, there is banter eg. Waterford playing KK, winding each other up before a match. All in good spirit.
Then there is nasty low lifes like that Clare supporter yesterday.
I always liked to see Clare do well, I didn't begrudge them in 2013.




I know it was a tiny minority, but the last thing you should do is shove your victory into opposition supporters faces after a win.
Davy was worse again, celebrating in front of us.
Not sour grapes at all, just stating what I saw.
Let's hope we beat them the next day.

Although I would question some of the selections for Sunday (we finished the game without any real ball winning forwards, but this too was down to injuries, someone like tom devine should have been kept in reserve)

I have to say I think Derek mcgrath has handled the controversial finish brilliantly, he hasn't put a foot wrong, showed real class...
He is a brilliant manager and We are so lucky to have him.

It's not the first time a decision like that cost a team - look at Tipp they came back in 2010, I always had great admiration for that Tipp team the only ones who came close to putting it up to kilkenny - they has crushing defeats but always fought on.

This is a bump in the road for us, even if we lose on the 4th of June it's not the end, there is too much quality and intelligence in this group to collapse over setbacks... even the victor in June could fall the next day out, so much quality in munster with Tipp, Limerick and Cork.

I am convinced we will win the All-Ireland with this group, but it will a great journey either way, this level headed and intelligent group of men representing us at senior level make it very easy to be proud

Nice piece on SportsJoe.ie praising Derek's measured reaction to events and contrasting it with the likely response from Davy if his team had been on the receiving end of things. I know that winning is what matters in the end, but being a jackass is not a necessary condition for success, let alone a sufficient one (and before anyone engages in a spot of whataboutery, yes, Dan the Man has those tendencies as well).

DiscoStew wrote: »

First things first; congrats to Clare. They had a disastrous start, got back in to it and then handed us another goal scoring chance which was taken with aplomb. They showed great fight to reel us in in fairness and kept going right until the end. Yes the free was undoubtedly wrong call but my did they take advantage of it.
The man in black.. I wasn't pleased with his performance in the first half. To say I was livid after the game would be an understatement but at the end of the day when we are 6 points up we should be seeing it out. Refs can get calls wrong I have no issue with that. The one thing that I thought was beyond belief was his carry on in the first half when he awarded us a free to Patrick Curran. Curran got treatment for a heel injury and while receiving this Kirwan starts blowing his whistle for him to get up and take the free. Curran continued with the treatment and Kirwan starts blowing and waving his arms frantically. Curran didn't take as long over the ball, understandably, and the free was sent wide. It was a difficult free anyway but I thought Kirwans carry on for that was scandalous. What bothered me more was that this couldn't be made out from the TV as Kirwan was in at the 21 and way out of camera shot.

Onto our own performance

Negatives:

Tony Kelly is a super hurler but we need to look at curtailing him for championship. Philip tried his best but pace was probably his worst enemy on Sunday and Kelly got away a number of times. I would expect Darragh Fives to take up this role come June.
Tadhg was very careless in his use of the ball. In the first half especially he gave away possession on 4 occasions, that's not good enough from the sweeper, although admittedly he was under pressure striking at times. I have every faith he will return to his high standard for June.
I was disappointed by the impact from our bench this time around. Devine, although he made some errors, was causing problems for the defence. Colin showed very little when he was introduced and looked like a player whose confidence was well below last years level.
I thought the substitution of Brick in particular was a strange one. He was our main outlet for puckouts, although Gleeson did provide an option he was having a serious battle with David FitzGerald. With Tommy Ryan coming on that completely removed that option and as a result we only had Aussie to hit in the half forward line.
In general I think Clare made better use of their puckouts. We seemed very reluctant to go short even when there was plenty of space for the backs to run into after taking the pass. We lumped much of it down the field and just tried to contest with them. Darragh Fives had acres of room on his wing at times but wasn't utilised by O'Keeffe. The one occasion that he did use Fives he soloed forward and pointed with ease. More variation may be required on the puckouts IMO.
Maurice had minimal if any impact when introduced. His impact from play in the drawn game was nil also, hopefully a game with Lismore might see his confidence return and a bit of form.

Positives:

Goals. Curran took his goal exceptionally well showing great drive to go for it and again to run at the heart of the defence and pop the pass to Dillon for his goal. While Clare will rue their defending I was encouraged by Currans drive for goals, especially the second one as he doesn't have blistering pace but still backed himself to run it in. He had an exceptional game and was a delight to watch all game.
Aussie played the majority of the game as a somewhat conventional wing forward. He had a titanic tussle with FitzGerald on the high balls. If he will feature there come championship it gives us both another ball winner and possibly another goal threat coming in from the wing.


On the next day, I hope that the hurt of this defeat will remain with the lads when they return to training after the club fixtures this weekend. It should provide them with a manic hungover to over turn this result the next day.

Last word on Davy FitzGearald (manager). His carry on when Austin lay stretched out on the sod should have seen him sent to the stand. There is no place for that type of carry on. When you contrast that to the care the Waterford management provided for Podge Collins last week when he pulled up with cramp it really is hard to fathom. To top it all the RTE Radio reported complimented Davy on his sideline behaviour and staying so calm throughout the match. Ludicrous!
Almost as ludicrous as not awarding Barron that free!

Taigh showed a limited amount of skill on Sunday,constantly turning and running off to the left to get a strike and get the ball away,think he hit one ball of his right ,very limited and very poor ,if and its a big if ,if he was a KK player with that performance he would not have seen out the first half ,simple as ,he would have been substituted and they would work on his weakness during the week in training,it does not mean he has become a bad player over night ,but what it does do is point out why and what was wrong with his game ,and it would fine tune his mind for the next game and he most definitely would not repeat the same,plus he was a spare man,so no excuse really

Mullane has nothing to apologise for . Kirwan deserved everything coming to him.

Who will mark Tony Kelly on June 5th ???. Philip Mahony didn't do too well on him

Tdb will not make mistakes like that again hopefully and I can't to see curran and Shane Bennett play in hot summer conditions

That old adage "everyone makes mistakes that's why we have rubbers on top of pencils" springs to mind (goes for players and ref). Even though i was livid after the match, its a game, and it was a great game , we move onward and upwards, we're not feeling it half as much as the players.

The comments i heard in the stand like "they didn't want to win it" or "they left it behind them, we had a 6 point lead" drive me insane, Clare were a class team on the day too, they showed their skill to stay in touch with us... the lads didn't hand it to em.

These lads had to go home to bury family or study for exams they're currently sitting. I have the utmost respect for them, to see them after matches battered, bleeding and shaking with exhaustion, signing jerseys and posing for photographs with kids (and adults) is outstanding. I have nothing but admiration for the team and their management (Derek gave up a USA holiday with his family this week) who managed to keep a cool head about the referee whilst we all lost it.

I have a feeling we're in for a long summer with these lads......

When I heard that Diarmuid Kirwan had been appointed to referee the replay between Waterford and Clare I let out a groan. I have never been impressed by his refereeing and there have been occasions when I was more depressed than impressed by his performances. The worst of these occasions was the Munster Under 21 game between Waterford and Tipperary in Thurles in June 2011. That was the most appalling display of one-sided refereeing that I ever had the misfortune to observe and, as with last Sunday, Waterford were the unfortunate victims.

A specific analysis of Kirwan’s performance in that game was written by An Moltóir, who used to write a column for the An Fear Rua GAA website but who at that time had his own blog. This is no longer accessible, but I downloaded his report at the time, and am quoting from it here. An Moltóir identified 14 incidents where we felt the referee should have given a free but didn’t, or should not have given a free but did. Of these, 13 worked in Tipperary’s favour and only one favoured Waterford.

Three of these decisions were particularly damaging for Waterford. An Moltóir reckoned that Brian O’Meara took a dive which gave Tipperary a converted penalty; that Darragh Fives was fouled (his hurley was held) in the lead up to Tipperary’s second goal; and that Maurice Shanahan was clearly fouled as he challenged for a ball into the Tipperary goal area late in the game when Waterford were seeking an equalising goal. A last-minute goal gave Tipperary a five point win in the end.

As suggested by Rasputin11 here, many people felt that Kirwan was trying to make up for several key decisions which he made in the 2009 All-Ireland final between Tipperary and Kilkenny which probably denied Tipperary what would have been a deserved victory. Again, An Moltóir devoted some attention to this in his analysis of the game which is accessible at http://www.anfearrua.com/viewdoc.aspx?id=2964

An Moltóir counted 15 incidents where Kirwan should have awarded a free and didn’t, or shouldn’t have awarded a free and did. Of these errors, four favoured Tipperary and eleven favoured Kilkenny. These included Kirwan’s awarding of a converted penalty to Kilkenny in the 62nd minte when Richie Power took nine steps before being fouled in the large square, and allowing a further Kilkenny goal two minutes later when he either didn’t see, or failed to penalise, a blatant push by Power which took Paul Curran out of the play in the lead-up to the goal. There was also a full frontal tackle by Jackie Tyrrell early in the game which laid Seamus Callanan out for several minutes. Not only did Tyrrell not get a deserved yellow card, Kirwan didn’t even give a free!

Kirwan was at it again last Sunday. I have just watched a recording of the game and noted the following 13 incidents where Waterford were penalised by refereeing errors. I have included the time of the incident in case anyone wants to check.

22.36: Jamie Barron has jersey tugged by Colm Galvin – no free (Kirwan gave a number of frees for jersey-tugging during the game).

29.14: Kevin Moran tripped deliberately by Darach Honan – no free.

34.18: Shane Bennett has his jersey tugged twice as he runs at the Clare defence – no free.

35.36: Shane Bennett tripped by Jack Browne – no free.

48.20: Shane Bennett penalised for tripping Pat O’Connor when it is not clear that any contact was made.

54.46: Jake Dillon clearly pushed in the back by David Reidy – no free (this was probably the most obvious error Kirwan made during the game).

60.57: Jack Browne strikes Shane Bennett on face guard with his hand before catching ball landing between them – no free.

66.43: Conor McGrath takes 13 steps with ball in hand and is then given a free for no apparent foul.

68.23: Brick Walsh pushed off the ball by Brendan Bugler – no free.

68.55: Shane Fives held back by hand on shoulder by Aaron Shanagher – no free.

69.05: Aaron Shanagher pushes Noel Connors in the back as he tries to lift the ball in the ensuing ruck – no free.

71.39: Jamie Barron clearly has his jersey tugged by Cian Dillon – no free.

71.48: Tony Kelly is awarded a free even though there is no evidence that either of the Waterford players nearest to him made any contact with him. Falling to the ground in such situations has always been a way of getting a handy free, but you might expect an experienced referee deemed suitable to referee a national final to be wise to such devices.

Speaking of which, Kirwan was removed from the panel of referees for senior intercounty games in 2014. You would have to ask how he came to be appointed to referee the National Hurling League Final two years later – last Sunday he showed – again - that he should not be allowed to operate at this level.