Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

keep going · 05-05-2016 09:19AM

alps wrote: »

What balance sheet is this product showing up on? Is it showing in the accounts of the coops?

Has this product gone through to some holding company as a sale?

Can co ops set up such holding companies without the showing up on the parent company's books?

I'm very suspicious...

Have you heard of intervention, it is nt a big warehouse attached onto strasburg, its warehousing being rented here and there convenient to m7lk processors to store product but it isnt a case of filling it up and putting a lockon door until the prices improve.product is constant ly moving in and out to keep in date obviously but the big advantage is you get a checkfor it as opposed to trying to store it yourself and carrying the money so you can pay your milk suppliers

browned · 05-05-2016 09:22AM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Got thinking about this thread last night. Kinda follows on from Bass reeves said about thinking outside the box.
The way I see it, its survival mode now in Dairying. What was Gospel up to now is gone out the window.

I'd be thinking along the lines of major steps like reducing cow numbers, scrapping AI and buying a bull, Slash fertiliser use, less nitrogen, living off the P and K already in the soil. Once a day milking and getting an off farm part time job. Stuff you really wouldn't have considered up to now. Anyone thinking along these lines.... Anyone ????

Reducing cows numbers can be done by culling the poor performers in the herd. Say the bottom 10-15% of the herd. This would reduce your sr which could lead to reduced N usage as you'd have less demand and lower winter feed requirements. With a lower sr you mightn't need as much supplement during the season so could reduce meal feeding. Reduced sr could lend itself to introducing clover to the system and further reduction in N. P k and lime reducion is a false economy as your only reducing the farms capacity to grow grass at the shoulders when you need it most and could lead to other costs. not sure if there is economics in using a bull instead of Ai but it could lead to labour saving. A lot of costs can be cut by matching the sr to the farms ability to grow grass if grass is the primary feed

keep going · 05-05-2016 09:28AM

kowtow wrote: »

If that is the case aren't you actually thanking carbery for being...

1. Your milk processor and
2. Your combined investment adviser + fund manager?

Is that an appropriate role for a coop in these professional times?

Why not get Carbery to sell the non core assets and return the funds so you can stick them in a hedge fund?

I'm a bit surprised because until now I thought Carbery returns were from the various premium brands including cheese which they are able to turn a margin on?

Not far away from the truth and something I debate with myself now and again, but two things maybe you have to accept that there are guys out there who are cleverer than you maybe you will get a better return with them than what you can acheive yourself and the other, by end of this year I dont think there ll be many carbery suppliers complaining relative to other processors.

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 09:40AM

keep going wrote: »

Have you heard of intervention, it is nt a big warehouse attached onto strasburg, its warehousing being rented here and there convenient to m7lk processors to store product but it isnt a case of filling it up and putting a lockon door until the prices improve.product is constant ly moving in and out to keep in date obviously but the big advantage is you get a checkfor it as opposed to trying to store it yourself and carrying the money so you can pay your milk suppliers

There was a lot of cheese from an East cork store, that was in danger of going out of date,had to be given away otherwise they would have had to pay to dump it. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of cheap milk replacer knocking around in the near future.

keep going · 05-05-2016 09:47AM

Farmer Ed wrote: »

There was a lot of cheese from an East cork store, that was in danger of going out of date,had to be given away otherwise they would have had to pay to dump it. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of cheap milk replacer knocking around in the near future.

Havent heard anything like that but things are so f##ked at the moment it wouldnt surprise me

kowtow · 05-05-2016 09:54AM

keep going wrote:

Not far away from the truth and something I debate with myself now and again, but two things maybe you have to accept that there are guys out there who are cleverer than you maybe you will get a better return with them than what you can acheive yourself and the other, by end of this year I dont think there ll be many carbery suppliers complaining relative to other processors.

I see what you mean.

I've never had to look far to find guys cleverer than me - but I think I'd want at least the freedom to choose who did what. It's a bit unsettling when the butcher does the baking and the bakers make the candlesticks... no matter how good the outcome.

But aside from that I'm still shocked if overall returns from carbery on milk were 21c.. even the ornua ppi is 24 or near in the blend isn't it?

Where are they making the money? Is there something we should know about those bloody trees they keep handing out?

Timmaay · 05-05-2016 09:57AM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Got thinking about this thread last night. Kinda follows on from Bass reeves said about thinking outside the box.
The way I see it, its survival mode now in Dairying. What was Gospel up to now is gone out the window.

I'd be thinking along the lines of major steps like reducing cow numbers, scrapping AI and buying a bull, Slash fertiliser use, less nitrogen, living off the P and K already in the soil. Once a day milking and getting an off farm part time job. Stuff you really wouldn't have considered up to now. Anyone thinking along these lines.... Anyone ????

Some of what you suggest makes sense, however I wouldn't be going that extreme with reducing fertiliser/wholesale culling etc, unless you are hugely overstocked as is, and your cost of production (before wages/tax and repayments) is approaching 30c, however in that case your probably best off just exiting milk 2bh. I'm happy enough with the cost of production here, however I kept too many cows for the housing we had last winter, that alongside it always being difficult to build up a suitable autumn grass wedge with the risk of drought makes it a no brainer for me to cull out the bottom 10% in around September, I'll still get the milk from grass with them, but instead of an autumn and winter of hassle for a cow who will almost definitely lose me money on milk production I'll have a cheque for 800 ish.

keep going · 05-05-2016 09:57AM

kowtow wrote: »

I see what you mean.

I've never had to look far to find guys cleverer than me - but I think I'd want at least the freedom to choose who did what. It's a bit unsettling when the butcher does the baking and the bakers make the candlesticks... no matter how good the outcome.

But aside from that I'm still shocked if overall returns from carbery on milk were 21c.. even the ornua ppi is 24 or near in the blend isn't it?

Where are they making the money? Is there something we should know about those bloody trees they keep handing out?

Its the trees

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 10:06AM

kowtow wrote: »

I see what you mean.

I've never had to look far to find guys cleverer than me - but I think I'd want at least the freedom to choose who did what. It's a bit unsettling when the butcher does the baking and the bakers make the candlesticks... no matter how good the outcome.

But aside from that I'm still shocked if overall returns from carbery on milk were 21c.. even the ornua ppi is 24 or near in the blend isn't it?

Where are they making the money? Is there something we should know about those bloody trees they keep handing out?

Given the outcome in banking I'm not sure the butcher could have done a much worse Job

WheatenBriar · 05-05-2016 10:14AM

Glanbia member April milk price held at 24 cpl including 2cpl Co-op support. GII price 22cpl.

whelan2 · 05-05-2016 10:54AM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Glanbia member April milk price held at 24 cpl including 2cpl Co-op support. GII price 22cpl.

Thats very early in the month to be announcing the price, at least we know now

browned · 05-05-2016 11:05AM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Glanbia member April milk price held at 24 cpl including 2cpl Co-op support. GII price 22cpl.

With a 2 cent drop by Carbery it'll mean a milk price of 22.77 and 22.74 for the west cork coops.

Water John · 05-05-2016 11:08AM

Good discussion, we really do need to drill down into the workings of each processor. Bloody job IFA should have been doing for the past 10/15 years.
We know even at national level it wasn't done as the figures were never collated.

Kowtow you are right. Farmers have believed and lead to believe that the managements of these establishments are of superior brains.
They get paid very high salaries, 'because they are worth it'.

Yes, Keep Going, Carbery are by far the best of the lot. My jaw drops thinking of some of the others.

Not to be too negative but an article on page 3 of the Irish Examiner Farming today with John Maher makes sober reading on margin of 80 cow operation.

whelan2 · 05-05-2016 11:55AM

Water John wrote: »

Not to be too negative but an article on page 3 of the Irish Examiner Farming today with John Maher makes sober reading on margin of 80 cow operation.

Any chance of a link to it please

browned · 05-05-2016 12:28PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Any chance of a link to it please

The jist was the income for an 80 cow herd in the summer months is €11,500 per month
Fert plus ration comes to €6,000
Living exp €3,000 ( wife 2 kids)
So basically €2,500 to pay bills repayments etc.
cut ration from 4 to 2 kgs for mag, mop up bull costs 2,000 to bull 20-30 cows. Ai would be €200-400.

Water John · 05-05-2016 12:39PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/cash-flow-warning-as-dairy-slump-continues-397664.html

Take out ESB etc,€2.5K wont even cover those costs. Then cutting family living expenses.

jaymla627 · 05-05-2016 12:49PM

browned wrote: »

The jist was the income for an 80 cow herd in the summer months is €11,500 per month
Fert plus ration comes to €6,000
Living exp €3,000 ( wife 2 kids)
So basically €2,500 to pay bills repayments etc.
cut ration from 4 to 2 kgs for mag, mop up bull costs 2,000 to bull 20-30 cows. Ai would be €200-400.

The cut the meal part was smokes and daggers, I don't have too many cows here that will do 30 litres on 2 kgs for too long once they came of peak, you could easily say that 2500 over may/June/July will go on contractor fees for silage.......
Illustrates how tight things are going to be coming into autumn when the milk chequers start to get smaller and bills start mounting up

Buford T. Justice XIX · 05-05-2016 12:51PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Any chance of a link to it please

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/cash-flow-warning-as-dairy-slump-continues-397664.html

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 12:57PM

What amazes me is how as farmers we are not being a bit more vocal about what is going on. I bet even some of the abvious realities as pointed out by most of you here will be dismissed by some as you being negative and pretty much your own fault for complaining. When did we become sheep?

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 01:31PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/cash-flow-warning-as-dairy-slump-continues-397664.html

The dogs in the streets knew fertiliser prices were decreasing but it didn't stop the people who pays his wages from trying to flog artic loads of it to unsuspecting farmers in the past few months.

einn32 · 05-05-2016 01:33PM

Fonterra down to $5.00 kgms and Murray Goulburn down to $4.75 in Oz. $5.60 is around breakeven.

Not sure if it's a reaction to milk price but 100 water buffalo arrived on the farm here in the last week. $2.50 per litre.

browned · 05-05-2016 01:43PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

The cut the meal part was smokes and daggers, I don't have too many cows here that will do 30 litres on 2 kgs for too long once they came of peak, you could easily say that 2500 over may/June/July will go on contractor fees for silage.......
Illustrates how tight things are going to be coming into autumn when the milk chequers start to get smaller and bills start mounting up

It's even less, misread it and it's only €2000. Ai will eat into that as well. Quite possible I don't feed ration so I honestly don't know.

rangler1 · 05-05-2016 05:28PM

Water John wrote: »

Good discussion, we really do need to drill down into the workings of each processor. Bloody job IFA should have been doing for the past 10/15 years.
We know even at national level it wasn't done as the figures were never collated.

Kowtow you are right. Farmers have believed and lead to believe that the managements of these establishments are of superior brains.
They get paid very high salaries, 'because they are worth it'.

Yes, Keep Going, Carbery are by far the best of the lot. My jaw drops thinking of some of the others.

Not to be too negative but an article on page 3 of the Irish Examiner Farming today with John Maher makes sober reading on margin of 80 cow operation.

,
Why should the processor have to give any information to IFA, is it really any bodies business, same with meat factories, why should they have to declare what they're selling meat for, surely letting out that sort of information gives their competitors an advantage.
doesn't make good business sense

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 06:28PM

rangler1 wrote: »

,
Why should the processor have to give any information to IFA, is it really any bodies business, same with meat factories, why should they have to declare what they're selling meat for, surely letting out that sort of information gives their competitors an advantage.
doesn't make good business sense

Sure the processors don't have to tell Ifa anything but as their in bed together you'd imagine theyd be some bit of pillow talk

rangler1 · 05-05-2016 06:50PM

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Sure the processors don't have to tell Ifa anything but as their in bed together you'd imagine theyd be some bit of pillow talk

I think you're a bit naive if you think any business will divulge anything about their business, last time i was in a meat factory, one of the bosses tried to take my phone thinking i was taking photographs.
I hope someone's ripping you off, it'd be an awful waste of yur conspiracy stories if they're not :rolleyes:
,

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 07:15PM

rangler1 wrote: »

I think you're a bit naive if you think any business will divulge anything about their business, last time i was in a meat factory, one of the bosses tried to take my phone thinking i was taking photographs.
I hope someone's ripping you off, it'd be an awful waste of yur conspiracy stories if they're not :rolleyes:
,

I doubt if he thought you were going to take pictures. Are you sure he wasn't just out of credit and just wanted to make a call? Imagine thinking he was afraid you'd take pictures. Rangler are you sure you were not just being a little bit paranoid?

Water John · 05-05-2016 08:06PM

Its exactly IFA's job Rangler to know the mix of product each processor has.
To know exactly what are the prices in the marketplace of those products.

The processor won't divulge to the IFA. Never asked them to. There are stats compiled by CSO, Central Bank, etc. Plenty of European data.
Most of us don't have the time to be collating these, but staff in IFA and indeed ICMSA should see these as the basic core tools of their job.
But I know they have never done this.

Without a comprehensive dossier, what business has Sean O'Leary or any one like him, going toe to toe with a milk processor.
If you haven't the information, your spoofing and worse, those across the table know your spoofing.

Farmer Ed · 05-05-2016 08:13PM

Water John wrote: »

Its exactly IFA's job Rangler to know the mix of product each processor has.
To know exactly what are the prices in the marketplace of those products.

The processor won't divulge to the IFA. Never asked them to. There are stats compiled by CSO, Central Bank, etc. Plenty of European data.
Most of us don't have the time to be collating these, but staff in IFA and indeed ICMSA should see these as the basic core tools of their job.
But I know they have never done this.

Without a comprehensive dossier, what business has Sean O'Leary or any one like him, going toe to toe with a milk processor.
If you haven't the information, your spoofing and worse, those across the table know your spoofing.

Certainly in a past life sean didn't go toe to toe with the processors. He played on their team when contracts were being introduced.
Only now is he starting to do a U turn. About 3 years too late.

kowtow · 05-05-2016 08:23PM

If the farmers who own the coops can't get sufficient information for be happy that they are true partners (and they can, without affecting commercial confidence as I outlined earlier) then the only solution is to split distribution and processing functions of the existing coops so that the processors compete for milk.

One way or another the present arrangements have made every generation of farmers poorer than the last, things can't continue this way regardless of price recovery when it comes.

kowtow · 05-05-2016 08:25PM

Water John wrote:

Without a comprehensive dossier, what business has Sean O'Leary or any one like him, going toe to toe with a milk processor. If you haven't the information, your spoofing and worse, those across the table know your spoofing.

Forget the Ifa.. you don't need a union to argue with a business which you own.

Milk Price- Please read Mod note in post #1

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