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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)
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gaynorvader wrote: »Is it though? As far as I can remember it's only mentioned in the Bible twice. Once in Leviticus alongside the laws about not eating shellfish, trimming beards or wearing two different cloths. The other in St.Paul's letters, alongside him declaring that women should not speak in church.
I'm not sure that it is particularly wrong from a Christian interpretation of the Bible as Jesus never mentions it.
Good evening!
I realise this is a difficult subject, but I want to explain what I believe the Christian position is from a Biblical perspective, and I hope to do that with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
. I will be bold and forthright in my view though as I hope you will be with yours in response.
There's two issues, what is marriage from Jesus' point of view and from a wider apostolic view, and what does the Bible say about sexual morality. I'll deal with them separately but they are related. It is worth saying now, that these issues are as pertinent to heterosexuals as homosexuals and that heterosexual sin is no worse from a Biblical perspective than homosexual sin, and no doubt we have all fallen short of this standard in one way or another. My point in replying isn't to offer judgement, but simply to convey what Christianity says on this issue.
Firstly, what is marriage:
You are right to say that Jesus doesn't explicitly refer to homosexuality in the Gospels. However, Jesus does explicitly define marriage on the basis of Genesis chapter 2. One example of him doing this is in Matthew 19:
Jesus clearly held to the creation perspective on marriage.Matthew 19:3-9 ESVUK wrote:And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
From a wider apostolic perspective, Paul points to marriage as the complementary union between a man and his wife that reflects the union of Christ and His bride the church. Similarly in Malachi, God uses marriage as a reflection of His covenant relationship with Israel.
The Ephesians passage is quoted below:Ephesians 5:22-33 ESVUK wrote:Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
I think this passage is one of the most beautiful in the whole Bible. The union that presents itself here is complementary. It is the difference of a man and his wife that complement one another to reflect the union of Jesus Christ and His bride the church. It is clear that Jesus understood that marriage was between a man and a woman, and it is clear that the Christian church has understood this for the last 2,000 years.
To the next question. What does Jesus say about sexual morality?
I conceded earlier that the Gospels do not explicitly prohibit homosexual acts, but on numerous occasions Jesus condemns "sexual immorality" including in the Matthew 19 passage that I quoted from. This isn't elucidated, I suspect because Jesus was speaking to Jewish hearers who knew what the Torah said about sexual morality primarily in Leviticus 18. I suspect the reason why Paul fleshes out what the Bible teaches on sexual morality in the New Testament letters was because he was an apostle to the Gentiles who by and large would not have had this depth of understanding about the Jewish law. It is also worth pointing out that we use the New Testament as the yardstick for determining what Christ fulfilled from the old. It is clear that ceremonial laws that distinguished Jews and Gentiles such as dietary laws and rules about fabrics are fulfilled in the New Testament because Christ came to break down division between Jew and Gentile. However, the New Testament affirms Old Testament teaching in respect to sexuality and there's no reason to believe on the basis of the New Testament that this was fulfilled by Jesus, considering he offers explicit condemnation of sexual immorality and even refers to it as evil.Mark 7:14-23 ESVUK wrote:And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Given that Jesus condemns sexual immorality to His Jewish hearers, and given that Jesus does not declare it fulfilled like the dietary laws in these verses and in others, there is no reason to believe that Jesus declared anything different to what Moses received from God on Sinai. Given that the Apostles who were filled with the Holy Spirit also affirmed this, it seems clear that there is nowhere in the New Testament that affirms sexual immorality whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.
Nobody is saying that Jesus' teaching isn't hard. It is bloody hard and I say that as a single man, but it is so obviously good. Jesus refuses to let us away with lustful attitudes towards others. The most difficult passage of all is in Matthew 5 on the Sermon of the Mount:Matthew 5:27-30 ESVUK wrote:“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
We follow a radical God and a radical Gospel secured through a radical Saviour. This is way better than any sexual lust that I could have, this rescue is way better than any sexual fulfilment this world could bring me. I need to see things more from God's perspective every day. I may never get married or have a wife, but God's way is better, and God's truth of salvation for the world is better than anything sexual immorality would give me other than rightful condemnation from God. Of ourselves we can't follow these commandments, but with God's help by His Holy Spirit He will transform all those who come to Him to be perfect on the last day when He returns.
It is worth pointing out that even if Jesus explicitly doesn't refer to homosexuality, it doesn't mean that we can throw the other verses in the bin. They are what give the definition of "sexual immorality" to Jesus' hearers. Jesus is speaking in the interpretative lens of His Jewish hearers. Paul is speaking to Gentiles and explicitly condemns all forms of sexual immorality as being unfaithful to Christ and explicitly states that we should flee from it. It isn't Christian to state that we can follow Jesus and ignore what God has said on sexual matters. That is being intentionally disobedient and unfaithful to Christ.1 Corinthians 6:9-20 ESVUK wrote:Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. “All things are lawful for me”, but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me”, but I will not be enslaved by anything. “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
God doesn't say these things because He hates us. No He says these things because He loves us and because sexual immorality of any kind is not for our good but for our ill. Does that mean I hope to coerce others to live a Christian life? No. Of course not. Would it be better for them? Yes, for now and into eternity and I will never deny that until my dying day.aloyisious wrote: »Good morning, solodeogloria: Getting back to my post which began this interaction between you and I, do you know if there is anything written by Jesus or God which has a direct Christian relevance to: A. The woman who agreed to have her Lesbian-partner as an equal guardian to her daughter. B. The act of the other woman in agreeing to the legal agreement of guardianship. C. The legitimacy in Christian eyes of the legal agreement between the two women. D. The legitimacy in Christian eyes of the act which allows for such agreements.
I believe that secular legislation and provision to non-traditional families is a matter for the Government. I believe as Jesus did that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). I believe the role and function of the government is to keep order, and the hope that Christians should have for their government is that it would permit them to live godly, peaceful lives in the present age (1 Timothy 2:1-7) . So I think secular legislation is not relevant to the gospel itself.
Do I believe that Jesus will return in glory one day? Yes. Do I think that secular laws will be worth anything on that day? No. Jesus will come back and Jesus will judge on the basis of what God has declared. That will be the standard on that day. So, to all people irrespective of whether they believe in Jesus or not, God's standard will count on that day, and all people everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30-31). This is incredibly serious, and I would urge people everywhere to repent and put their trust in Jesus before that day comes.
Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria0 -
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solodeogloria wrote: »Good evening!
I realise this is a difficult subject, but I want to explain what I believe the Christian position is from a Biblical perspective, and I hope to do that with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15). I will be bold and forthright in my view though as I hope you will be with yours in response.
There's two issues, what is marriage from Jesus' point of view and from a wider apostolic view, and what does the Bible say about sexual morality. I'll deal with them separately but they are related. It is worth saying now, that these issues are as pertinent to heterosexuals as homosexuals and that heterosexual sin is no worse from a Biblical perspective than homosexual sin, and no doubt we have all fallen short of this standard in one way or another. My point in replying isn't to offer judgement, but simply to convey what Christianity says on this issue.
Firstly, what is marriage:
You are right to say that Jesus doesn't explicitly refer to homosexuality in the Gospels. However, Jesus does explicitly define marriage on the basis of Genesis chapter 2. One example of him doing this is in Matthew 19:
Jesus clearly held to the creation perspective on marriage.
From a wider apostolic perspective, Paul points to marriage as the complementary union between a man and his wife that reflects the union of Christ and His bride the church. Similarly in Malachi, God uses marriage as a reflection of His covenant relationship with Israel.
The Ephesians passage is quoted below:
I think this passage is one of the most beautiful in the whole Bible. The union that presents itself here is complementary. It is the difference of a man and his wife that complement one another to reflect the union of Jesus Christ and His bride the church. It is clear that Jesus understood that marriage was between a man and a woman, and it is clear that the Christian church has understood this for the last 2,000 years.
To the next question. What does Jesus say about sexual morality?
I conceded earlier that the Gospels do not explicitly prohibit homosexual acts, but on numerous occasions Jesus condemns "sexual immorality" including in the Matthew 19 passage that I quoted from. This isn't elucidated, I suspect because Jesus was speaking to Jewish hearers who knew what the Torah said about sexual morality primarily in Leviticus 18. I suspect the reason why Paul fleshes out what the Bible teaches on sexual morality in the New Testament letters was because he was an apostle to the Gentiles who by and large would not have had this depth of understanding about the Jewish law. It is also worth pointing out that we use the New Testament as the yardstick for determining what Christ fulfilled from the old. It is clear that ceremonial laws that distinguished Jews and Gentiles such as dietary laws and rules about fabrics are fulfilled in the New Testament because Christ came to break down division between Jew and Gentile. However, the New Testament affirms Old Testament teaching in respect to sexuality and there's no reason to believe on the basis of the New Testament that this was fulfilled by Jesus, considering he offers explicit condemnation of sexual immorality and even refers to it as evil.
Given that Jesus condemns sexual immorality to His Jewish hearers, and given that Jesus does not declare it fulfilled like the dietary laws in these verses and in others, there is no reason to believe that Jesus declared anything different to what Moses received from God on Sinai. Given that the Apostles who were filled with the Holy Spirit also affirmed this, it seems clear that there is nowhere in the New Testament that affirms sexual immorality whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.
Nobody is saying that Jesus' teaching isn't hard. It is bloody hard and I say that as a single man, but it is so obviously good. Jesus refuses to let us away with lustful attitudes towards others. The most difficult passage of all is in Matthew 5 on the Sermon of the Mount:
We follow a radical God and a radical Gospel secured through a radical Saviour. This is way better than any sexual lust that I could have, this rescue is way better than any sexual fulfilment this world could bring me. I need to see things more from God's perspective every day. I may never get married or have a wife, but God's way is better, and God's truth of salvation for the world is better than anything sexual immorality would give me other than rightful condemnation from God. Of ourselves we can't follow these commandments, but with God's help by His Holy Spirit He will transform all those who come to Him to be perfect on the last day when He returns.
It is worth pointing out that even if Jesus explicitly doesn't refer to homosexuality, it doesn't mean that we can throw the other verses in the bin. They are what give the definition of "sexual immorality" to Jesus' hearers. Jesus is speaking in the interpretative lens of His Jewish hearers. Paul is speaking to Gentiles and explicitly condemns all forms of sexual immorality as being unfaithful to Christ and explicitly states that we should flee from it. It isn't Christian to state that we can follow Jesus and ignore what God has said on sexual matters. That is being intentionally disobedient and unfaithful to Christ.
God doesn't say these things because He hates us. No He says these things because He loves us and because sexual immorality of any kind is not for our good but for our ill. Does that mean I hope to coerce others to live a Christian life? No. Of course not. Would it be better for them? Yes, for now and into eternity and I will never deny that until my dying day.
I believe that secular legislation and provision to non-traditional families is a matter for the Government. I believe as Jesus did that His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). I believe the role and function of the government is to keep order, and the hope that Christians should have for their government is that it would permit them to live godly, peaceful lives in the present age (1 Timothy 2:1-7) . So I think secular legislation is not relevant to the gospel itself.
Do I believe that Jesus will return in glory one day? Yes. Do I think that secular laws will be worth anything on that day? No. Jesus will come back and Jesus will judge on the basis of what God has declared. That will be the standard on that day. So, to all people irrespective of whether they believe in Jesus or not, God's standard will count on that day, and all people everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30-31). This is incredibly serious, and I would urge people everywhere to repent and put their trust in Jesus before that day comes.
Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria
Thank you for your reply, unfortunately I may not get around to responding until next week as I have a busy weekend and want to give your reply proper consideration.0 -
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