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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***
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More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.
18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???
The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.
A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.
There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time… The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??
Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?
One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record…. Their support system is gone and you’ve discarded the other lads.
Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.
I had a look at the clubs that the Kilkenny minor panel is made up of and the make up of the St Kierans and CBS panels when they played each other in the Leinster final. The Kierans and CBS panels I have only included those who started or came on as subs that day as It's hard to find a list of the players with their clubs listed.
Theres a few things you seem to readily mix together here, city clubs and city schools. The city accounts for approx 26% of the population (95.4k in the county and 24.4k in the city). On the minor panel the 3 city clubs have 28% of the places on the minor panel. 9 city players out of 32 places is in no way excessive in fact it's very representative of the county.
The same 3 city clubs made up 49% of the players when the two teams played in the Leinster Final
22% of the Kierans team and 76% of the CBS panel.
Dicksboro =2 Kierans team +5 CBS team only 3 KK panel v Offaly
O'Loughlins =0 Kierans team +6 CBS team only 4 KK panel v Offaly
J Stephens =2 Kierans team +2 CBS team only 2 KK panel v Offaly
If your talking about lads who go to city schools dominating then your correct 63% (20players) of the minor panel played in that Colleges Leinster Final. But that also means that 37% (12 players) on the minor panel didn't play in that game and went to other schools. I would say Kilkenny is quite unique compared to many counties as our many town/city is right in the centre of the county and not up against one border and therefore has a large draw of players into it for education I would say the proportions of the minor panel is about correct for what I know of St Kierans students who come from almost every corner of the county.
St Kierans and CBS had 17 players from the 3 city teams but also had players from
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 3,
Young Irelands 2,
Emeralds 1,
Dunnamaggin 2,
Clara 2,
Conahy 1,
GBC 2,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 1,
Barrow Rangers 1.
Thats 14 of clubs represented,
6 Senior teams 23 players 65% of the teams,
6 Inter teams 10 players 29% of the teams,
2 Junior teams 2 players 6% of the teams,
Agreed there is nothing south of Dunnamaggin or Ballyhale in that list but I wouldn't expect there to be much. Although when I was in Kierans there were lads from Thomastown, Windgap, Graigue, Inistioge and even Mullinavat.
However the minor panel is more representative.
J Stephens 2,
OLG 4,
Dicksboro 3,
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 1,
Dunnamaggin 1,
Clara 2,
Conahy 2,
GBC 1,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 2,
Barrow Rangers 2,
St Martins 1,
Ttown 1,
Erin Own 2,
Piltown 2,
B&W 1,
Slieverue 1,
Rower Inistioge 1
Thats 19 clubs represented with
9 Senior teams 18 players 56% of squad,
6 Interm teams 8 players 25% of squad,
4 Junior teams 6 players 19% of squad,
Given how big the cities catchment area is it's no suprise to see how much of a representation its two main hurling schools have on the county minor panel I would say it's about proportionate.
Wheather it's right to have all those players concentrated in two schools is another argument but with Kierans especially being a more country orientated school and such a successful one it's hard to stop lads wanting to go there.
Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan
All country lads and three on the borders of the county like your worried about
CBS is a much more city focused school and as a result has more city lads enrolled.
Another thing to look at however is the level of a lot of the clubs that are missing out. While they may be on the edge of the county their also in the lower divisons of the county championship.
Look at the map attached all the clubs in Black are Senior, Orange are Intermediate and Junior are Blue almost all the clubs your talking about are junior clubs and while these clubs can and do produce great players. Those players also have it harder competing with lads who come from the stronger clubs as outside of development squads they don't get the same level of competition. I think the minor panel has it about right to be honest.
There may well be young lads out there who deserve a go but I don't know of any. If clubs aren't happy they should have it addressed at a county board meeting by their rep. What would worry me more is that a parish like Slieverue population 5951 or Piltown population 3839, the 4th and 6th largest parish populations in the county are only at junior level. To me there is a far bigger question as to what is going on in both those clubs. Why aren't they challenging for higher honours? I don't know the answer I'm not from the south of the county.
After U17 unfortunately there are no other intercounty competitions for lads to be entered into hence the development squads cease. A young lad still has plenty of opportunities to shine if he's good enough. He has the U21 and Fitzgibbon to aim for plus he has club matches and intercounty Intermediate panel to go after. If he makes an impression you can be sure a certain Mr BC won't ignore him.
Have you any suggestions yourself as to what can be done?0 -
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tbiggertycome wrote: »More media hype about a school, one of two in the city, leading people to think that they are the only schools capable of producing hurlers. Unfortunately, our minor management are part of the hype as they ignore players outside the city schools catchment area for the most part. Something which if looked at in detail is having repercussions around the county as the selections gets more and city orientated with the colleges getting increased media exposure.
18 out the 24 named players on the programme were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
11 of the starting team were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS
ALL 5 subs introduced were either Kierans or Kilkenny CBS (4 from Kierans)
75% of our best minors are in the city schools??? Are the city colleges superseding the Development squads?? What is the point of development squads then?? They cater for every club up to Under-17, but what happens at minor. Forget about it???
The truth is there are very good KILKENNY hurlers playing their colleges hurling in Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford, Laois and Carlow. The management teams over the past few years hardly want to know about them. But they are just as good as the city lads when put together. A team of them would probably beat the city selection.
A few weeks ago Kilkenny played Offaly in a minor hurling challenge in Clara without either the Kierans or CBS contingent. (4 of Saturdays team played)
Score KK 0-27 OFF 1-12. (Compare that to 3-25 to 1-13 with Kierans and Kilkenny CBS)
27 scores versus 28.
13 scores conceded versus 14.
Very little difference. In fact the 3 goals scored on Saturday came from non Kierans/CBS players. What does it do the confidence of these players who come through the squads system only to be ignored at minor because of where they go to school?? Lads who were subs on the city colleges teams are getting on the minor panel ahead of lads who play for their less famous college.
There is a direct link between the Kilkenny minor selection and the City schools. This has been the case for some time The question is what is the effect on the overall state of hurling in the county??
Listing some of the junior clubs and thinking about their geography; Galmoy, Emeralds, John Lockes, Windgap, Piltown, Mooncoin, Carrigeen, Kilmacow, Slieverue, Graignamanagh, Blacks & Whites, Barrow Rangers and Cloneen. All border lying clubs and less likely to have pupils in the city secondary schools. Does Kilkenny really want to disenfranchise the passionate border counties in the coming years?
One more thought, these guys leave school at 18. When the support system of their city secondary school is gone. What happens? Think about our recent Under-21 record . Their support system is gone and you ve discarded the other lads.
Is it really a good idea to bank the future of Kilkenny hurling solely on the two city schools?? Surely our development squad system is a better production line and more inclusive of all clubs and players. The county board need to address this issue. There is no doubt some development squad coaches are unhappy that the work done through the squad system is being ignored at minor.
I had a look at the clubs that the Kilkenny minor panel is made up of and the make up of the St Kierans and CBS panels when they played each other in the Leinster final. The Kierans and CBS panels I have only included those who started or came on as subs that day as It's hard to find a list of the players with their clubs listed.
Theres a few things you seem to readily mix together here, city clubs and city schools. The city accounts for approx 26% of the population (95.4k in the county and 24.4k in the city). On the minor panel the 3 city clubs have 28% of the places on the minor panel. 9 city players out of 32 places is in no way excessive in fact it's very representative of the county.
The same 3 city clubs made up 49% of the players when the two teams played in the Leinster Final
22% of the Kierans team and 76% of the CBS panel.
Dicksboro =2 Kierans team +5 CBS team only 3 KK panel v Offaly
O'Loughlins =0 Kierans team +6 CBS team only 4 KK panel v Offaly
J Stephens =2 Kierans team +2 CBS team only 2 KK panel v Offaly
If your talking about lads who go to city schools dominating then your correct 63% (20players) of the minor panel played in that Colleges Leinster Final. But that also means that 37% (12 players) on the minor panel didn't play in that game and went to other schools. I would say Kilkenny is quite unique compared to many counties as our many town/city is right in the centre of the county and not up against one border and therefore has a large draw of players into it for education I would say the proportions of the minor panel is about correct for what I know of St Kierans students who come from almost every corner of the county.
St Kierans and CBS had 17 players from the 3 city teams but also had players from
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 3,
Young Irelands 2,
Emeralds 1,
Dunnamaggin 2,
Clara 2,
Conahy 1,
GBC 2,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 1,
Barrow Rangers 1.
Thats 14 of clubs represented,
6 Senior teams 23 players 65% of the teams,
6 Inter teams 10 players 29% of the teams,
2 Junior teams 2 players 6% of the teams,
Agreed there is nothing south of Dunnamaggin or Ballyhale in that list but I wouldn't expect there to be much. Although when I was in Kierans there were lads from Thomastown, Windgap, Graigue, Inistioge and even Mullinavat.
However the minor panel is more representative.
J Stephens 2,
OLG 4,
Dicksboro 3,
Tullaroan 2,
Ballyhale 1,
Dunnamaggin 1,
Clara 2,
Conahy 2,
GBC 1,
Lisdowney 1,
Danesfort 2,
Barrow Rangers 2,
St Martins 1,
Ttown 1,
Erin Own 2,
Piltown 2,
B&W 1,
Slieverue 1,
Rower Inistioge 1
Thats 19 clubs represented with
9 Senior teams 18 players 56% of squad,
6 Interm teams 8 players 25% of squad,
4 Junior teams 6 players 19% of squad,
Given how big the cities catchment area is it's no suprise to see how much of a representation its two main hurling schools have on the county minor panel I would say it's about proportionate.
Wheather it's right to have all those players concentrated in two schools is another argument but with Kierans especially being a more country orientated school and such a successful one it's hard to stop lads wanting to go there.
Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan
All country lads and three on the borders of the county like your worried about
CBS is a much more city focused school and as a result has more city lads enrolled.
Another thing to look at however is the level of a lot of the clubs that are missing out. While they may be on the edge of the county their also in the lower divisons of the county championship.
Look at the map attached all the clubs in Black are Senior, Orange are Intermediate and Junior are Blue almost all the clubs your talking about are junior clubs and while these clubs can and do produce great players. Those players also have it harder competing with lads who come from the stronger clubs as outside of development squads they don't get the same level of competition. I think the minor panel has it about right to be honest.
There may well be young lads out there who deserve a go but I don't know of any. If clubs aren't happy they should have it addressed at a county board meeting by their rep. What would worry me more is that a parish like Slieverue population 5951 or Piltown population 3839, the 4th and 6th largest parish populations in the county are only at junior level. To me there is a far bigger question as to what is going on in both those clubs. Why aren't they challenging for higher honours? I don't know the answer I'm not from the south of the county.
After U17 unfortunately there are no other intercounty competitions for lads to be entered into hence the development squads cease. A young lad still has plenty of opportunities to shine if he's good enough. He has the U21 and Fitzgibbon to aim for plus he has club matches and intercounty Intermediate panel to go after. If he makes an impression you can be sure a certain Mr BC won't ignore him.
Have you any suggestions yourself as to what can be done?
Fair play. Great bit of research there.0 -
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tbiggertycome wrote: »
Look at 4 of it's most famous past pupils from a hurling perspective
Eddie Keher- Inistioge
DJ Carey- Gowran
Henry Shefflin- Ballyhale
Tommy Walsh- Tullaroan
You forgot about Eoin Kelly
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