Koran is "prescribed material" for Leaving Cert Arabic.

Cabaal wrote: »

So the bible should be included in English classes....you know...to test people's understanding and comprehension of English
:rolleyes:

Far more logical to use a none religious text especially for people of none-faith or other faiths,

I'd actually love to see certain passages on the bible opened up to a hundred thousand teenagers to critically analyse as a literary text.. There'd probably be some legendary answers.

Cabaal wrote: »

But the importance comes from the fact that it is seen as the word of god, this means the viewpoint of it is flawed as its wrong to doubt god.

Not, apparently, to some, who think it is the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language. For them the importance seems to be it's fineness as a piece of literature. Sounds like a good reason to include it in studies of Arabic literature.

Cabaal wrote: »

So the bible should be included in English classes....you know...to test people's understanding and comprehension of English:rolleyes:

If there's a bible that is generally considered to be a great piece of literature, sure, why not Actually, isn't the Song of Solomon supposed to be one of the greatest love poems of all time? I don't know if it suffers greatly in translation to English, but perhaps there is some merit to the notion that some excerpted passages from the (Holy) Bible are worth including in literature classes.

Cabaal wrote: »

Far more logical to use a none religious text especially for people of none-faith or other faiths,

Far more logical to base selection on the quality of literature, rather than the mere presence or absence of religious content, which, in all fairness, isn't terribly relevant to the subject of literature.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Because a candidate of a certain faith would be expected to be familiar with the course material prior to commencing study.

Candidates aren't being tested on their faith in a language exam though?

That's the fundamental issue I have with any claims that the exam is discriminatory to a candidate based upon their religion or none - because it isn't relevant. If I were studying Arabic, I would expect the Koran would be a relevant text, regardless of it's religious connotations or otherwise.

Just one minor point about this.
It is entirely possible that the passages from the Quran were included for sound academic reasons. While the concept of i'jaz (the inimitability or uniqueness of the Quran) is a Muslim belief, the idea that the Quran is noteworthy among Arabic literature is something that is supported by a number of Western scholars too.
In "A History of God", Karen Armstrong writes:

"It is as though Muhammad had created an entirely new literary form that some people were not ready for but which thrilled others. Without this experience of the Koran, it is extremely unlikely that Islam would have taken root."

Similarly, Oliver Leaman, professor of Judaic Studies at University of Kentucky noted:

"...the verses of the Qur'an represent its uniqueness and beauty not to mention its novelty and originality. That is why it has succeeded in convincing so many people of its truth. it imitates nothing and no one nor can it be imitated. Its style does not pall even after long periods of study and the text does not lose its freshness over time"


Furthermore, the syllabus shows that the questions about the Quran are contained in a section which also includes questions on either Arabic poetry or modern Arabic prose. This indicates that there is likely to be some kind of comparative question between the older text and newer ones. This is a pretty uncontroversial idea since the LC English curriculum includes (or at least included when I did my LC) middle English in the form of The Canterbury Tales as well as modern English.

Also, I don't really see what the problem is with including a religious text in a literature course is in the first place. The students are being asked to read it and answer questions, not believe what they're reading. Back in the day when I did LC English we had Paradise Lost to contend with which is a quasi religious text. It doesn't mean any of us came away from the LC believing in Satan because of it.

I can't think of a good reason to exclude religious texts from a literature course at all. Ignorance is a bad thing IMO. If reading an extract from the Quran gives you a better insight into Islam all the better regardless of whether you have a different religion or none at all. People would be better off if they understood better what different religions actually teach instead of what they think it does. Religion survives in part on ignorance. Lots of religious people and most of the ones I've come across in real life don't know the first thing about what their own religion actually teaches. I'm an atheist in part because I've read the Bible, the Quran, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Book of Mormon, the Baghavad Gita because reading what a different religion believes is not something to shy away from or be fearful of. It's difficult to argue with someone who claims their religion is true if you don't know the first thing about their religion. As Penn Jillette says below, reading the Bible or the Quran or whatever is the fastest way to become an atheist:



And another thing, religious texts are very useful in literature courses because of the changes and mistranslations that inevitably happen to these texts over history. For example, the virgin birth prophecy in Matthew's gospel is as good an example of deliberate mistranslation as you'll find in any body of literature.
Similarly, the alteration of Surah 37:103 in the Quran between the Samarkand Codex and the modern text is another example of how the meaning of passages can be changed completely due to copying changes/errors.

recedite wrote: »

That would be interesting alright, and especially the second part; if the student made an intelligent criticism of the Koran, as a literary work.

This is the problem with using any religious text in a non-religious exam. If the text is considered by some (eg the examiner!) to be perfect, and the word of god, then it is difficult or impossible to make an objective study or an objective critique of it.

I wonder who exactly examines these papers anyway? If I was a Syrian Christian with fluent Arabic, sitting a Leaving Cert exam in Ireland, I would not be at all happy answering a question on the Koran if a guy in Clonskeagh mosque was going to be correcting the paper.

The State Examinations Commission recruits teachers for the roles of examiners:

Personal Reflection Task

All suitably qualified teachers are welcome to apply for these positions. Examiners will be selected on the basis of their teaching and assessment experience and qualifications. Full training is provided and a support network is available throughout the marking process.

Applicants for the position must:

hold a third level degree or equivalent
have recent teaching experience in the relevant subject area or related subject
have good organisational and analytical skills
be able to work to a fixed time-scale
be available to work full-time for the duration of the marking
be resident in the Republic of Ireland during the marking period.
To apply, download an application form above, complete and return to “Examiners Section, State Examinations Commission, Cornamaddy, Athlone, Co Westmeath” as soon as possible.

Why become an examiner?

Being an examiner enables you to:

enhance your own teaching
gain a deeper understanding of the assessment process
exercise your professional judgement
network with other professionals
increase your professional development and career prospects
earn extra income.

The role of the examiner

Typically, you will be required to

familiarise yourself with the contents of the Instructions to Examiners booklet
attend a marking conference
collect your allocated scripts for marking
mark the scripts in accordance with the agreed marking scheme
submit scripts to your advising examiner for monitoring
complete the work within a given time period
submit a report at the end of the marking process
A support network is available throughout the marking process.

Marking through Irish

A number of examiners are required in most subjects to mark scripts answered through Irish. Irish translations of the marking schemes are available. There is an additional payment for marking through Irish.

recedite wrote: »

Also I find it hard to believe that there is so little merit in the broad lexicon of Arabic literature that the LC exam has no choice but to use such controversial material.

It's been on the Leaving Cert syllabus in it's current format since 1997:

Leaving Certificate Arabic was offered in Ireland for the first time in June 1997, at Ordinary and Higher levels. The current syllabus is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country. The curriculum includes a number of prescribed texts, both religious and secular.

Part 2
Part 2 will consist of three sections. The first section, to be answered by all candidates, will comprise an extract from the Koran, followed by two questions. The second and third sections, between which the
andidates will be asked to choose, will consist respectively of a portion of classical Arabic verse, followed by two questions, and an extract from a work of modern Arabic prose, followed by 2 questions. In both cases, one question will bear directly on the text presented, while the other question will be of a more contextual nature.

Source: Leaving Certificate Arabic Interim Syllabus


There's absolutely nothing controversial about the use of the Koran in learning the Arabic language, any more than there is anything controversial about the use of Shakespeare in learning the English language.


The father's point here seems to be this:

However, a Syrian father whose Christian daughter is due to sit the exam says the requirement is unfair for students and discriminatory.

“She, as a Christian, has never studied the Koran,” said Marwan, who asked that his surname not be used.

It's meant to test the student's knowledge of the Arabic language, not their knowledge of the Islamic religion. That's what the religious education syllabus is for.

recedite wrote: »

And you have no basis whatsoever for saying that.

Ahem. The basis for the below statements is.... ?

recedite wrote: »

This is what happens when religious authorities are allowed to get involved in setting state exams and curricula.

recedite wrote: »

If the text is considered by some (eg the examiner!) to be perfect, and the word of god, then it is difficult or impossible to make an objective study or an objective critique of it.

recedite wrote: »

So if teachers from those schools are correcting the paper, how objective are they likely to be when assessing a critique of the Koran that has been written by a kuffar?

I don't know about here but Latin is studied by those doing medicine and veterinary medicine. It has nothing to do with church efforts. If you ignore the fact that medical terminology uses Latin, it is also important for the origin of words in most European languages. Ignorance and narrow mindedness on this thread surprises me a bit. I would think that limiting the literature only to inoffensive, non political, non religious limits the understanding of ourselves significantly.

seamus wrote: »

It would be the equivalent of making the Bible required reading in an English course.

We had that in our literature. The Song of Solomon is one if historical texts if you do history of literature. Besides how for example would anyone understand Divine Comedy without basic knowledge of Biblical stories and of Greek and especially Roman Mythology. Or Wilde's Salome to name just two.