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Employment Conditions.

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    #32
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,756 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    These are people who are willing and need the 40 hours - the company is extraordinarily profitable , it is basically slave labour. Or bypassing the spirit min wage.

    This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

    First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

    Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

    Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:


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    #33
    RIGHTisRIGHT
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 726 ✭✭✭RIGHTisRIGHT


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

    First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

    Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

    Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:

    Would you let me have the hard crusts off your table while I spent the night in your barn sleeping with the pigs or would you shoot me for wondering too close to your land?:D


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    #34
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

    First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

    Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

    Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:

    I've been to Bangladesh and met garment workers and their representatives and they get a very raw deal indeed. Funnily enough though, the types of people exploiting the sh*t out of them are the same people on this side of the world attempting to drive down pay and conditions e.g. Sports Direct, various retail giants etc.

    The only difference is that here in Europe we had a long and hard struggle to pull workers out of the sort of penury we are currently seeing in Asia. Exploitation in one part of the world does not become ok because it's worse in another part.


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    #35
    Conall Cernach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Conall Cernach


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    You get no break.

    This enables large companies to remove any paid break from a large group of staff.

    Beside just being horrendously mean - it basically reduces the hours of regular life time staff members for casual labour. It places regular staff on a 17 hour week - travel to and from work must be at least 1 hour per shift - this shift is over 4 days - you are working for 17 hour no break , travelling for 4 hours and paid about 170 euro a week. Seriously.

    The casual labour are only doing the job in a casual way - so their employment at a reduced rate , remove a basic right, entitlement of an employment right that was established over decades - you are actually entitled to a paid break - imagine that :eek:

    Shock horror - a break , a real job, a permanent job.
    I've come across this a few times where a large multinational employer has staff on less than 19 hours a week spread over 4 days. This means that staff cannot qualify for either FIS (you need 19 hours pw for that) or dole for a 3 day week. It's almost as if some employers are trying to make it hard for employees.


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    #36
    languagenerd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,201 ✭✭✭languagenerd


    The biggest issue with employment conditions IMO is the floods of unpaid internships now taking over from real jobs. Why do we have a minimum wage if it can waived entirely with this loophole? When I was job-hunting last year, about 90% of the entry level jobs in my field were unpaid internships or JobBridge. There's one very well-known Irish company that regularly advertises vacancies for a 9-month unpaid 40-hr-a-week internship for which you need prior experience in the relevant area. It's bull****. If you already have experience, why would you need 9 months of a slavery internship to gain it?! That's an actual job right there, a full-time job that should be paid for. People take sign up because they're desperate, because you're told you'll never get anything but a low-paid job without one - but you need a load of savings or generous parents to be able to do it, so it's also cutting off opportunities for anyone who can't afford to live on nothing for almost a year. And yet the politicians/unions/etc won't do anything about it.


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    #37
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

    That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.


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    #38
    the evasion_kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭the evasion_kid


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

    That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.

    Just an observation but people are too numbified and dumbified by capitalism,too worried about losing the few crumbs they are receiving.I've said this for a while but we need national strikes,this includes everyone form the working poor to the I'm alright jacks,the only way you are going to see change is when you affect production.


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    #39
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    You two carry on but the reason most people aren't politically active is it's a complete non-issue. Most people are relatively happy and the ones that aren't have two options.

    (i) change the country,

    (ii) find a better job.

    Option (ii) seems to be the easier option.


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    #40
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

    That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.

    i am forbidden to engage in labour or political activism

    funnily enough, it was my boss that made doing so an arrestable offence :D

    did you know that criminals can run for office but the Gardai that arrest them and the prison officers that detain them cant? They actually have more political freedom that servants of the state


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    #41
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    You two carry on but the reason most people aren't politically active is it's a complete non-issue. Most people are relatively happy and the ones that aren't have two options.

    (i) change the country,

    (ii) find a better job.

    Option (ii) seems to be the easier option.

    Rubbish. People feel powerless.

    Watching the well off getting bailed out by the worst off during the recession made sure we know our place. We can't even get the fexkers in power out. See Labour for an example.


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    #42
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    FortySeven wrote: »
    Rubbish. People feel powerless.

    Watching the well off getting bailed out by the worst off during the recession made sure we know our place. We can't even get the fexkers in power out. See Labour for an example.

    Eh?

    I don't feel powerless, I was shut out of the career path I'd like for a couple of years but things happen. I worked PT and studied - those 4 hour shifts were pretty useful to me.

    The wife just got a new job and pay raise.

    My best mate got let go, could see it coming. A day later on linkedin he was getting set up for half a dozen new jobs, one he finally got, better hours, closer to home more money...

    At work, one of the other PT left, 40K a year FT job now the kids are a bit older. Another guy on the team (of 15 or so) better job, better hours leaving shortly, the rest of us are pretty content but the employer is seeing many leave and get better jobs. Relatively large pay rise last year, another this year to adjust to keep competitive on salary.


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    #43
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    FixdePitchmark wrote: »
    Not sure this the right Topic for this - but at the same time ,great to get a wide range of views outside of the political classes. Also , here we will get a wider range of experiences in employment.

    There is a debate going on at present about the conditions of employment of new staff entering various jobs in the private and public sector. This was going on in the background in UK due to the zero hour contract debate and job bridge issue in Ireland.

    The Luas
    The Garda
    The Teachers
    The Nurses

    Have all added to this debate.



    But this evening I was told about some of the extraordinary management coups the likes of Dunnes Stores - Marks and Spencers have puled off in the last few years.

    In particular a practice where you have a 4 hour shift so you have no break :eek: - then you are sent home for a casual labour type.



    I'm sure this is only 1 example.

    But to ask the question.

    Will this generation make a labour movement to reclaim workers rights ?
    What on earth were the Labour party at, not making these more serious issues number 1 on their policies - they delivered water charges :eek:
    Are this generation just not bothered and go with the no break 17 hour a week contract with no actual long term meaningful contract ?

    What on earth is going on in employment.

    The problem with that is that it is all the open to public scrutiny, there are lots of occupations and company's with very good conditions of employment, for example I have a relative working for the Irish division of a French financial institution, as well as bonus, pensions being well paid there is a lot of other padding very expensive Christmas night out ect. now they would all be very well well qualified in the academic sense.

    My point is that such conditions are common enough in a lot of sectors no one ever hears about. Insurance is very well rewarded once you get to a cretin level or enter at a cretin level.


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    #44
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    mariaalice wrote: »
    My point is that such conditions are common enough in a lot of sectors no one ever hears about. Insurance is very well rewarded once you get to a cretin level or enter at a cretin level.

    Mary would disagree


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    #45
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Cretin level eh? :pac:


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    #46
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    esforum wrote: »
    Mary would disagree

    On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.


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    #47
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    mariaalice wrote: »
    On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.

    no idea, why are you even asking me that?


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    #48
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    mariaalice wrote: »
    On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.

    Even CS level jobs are grand, company dependant.

    Healthcare, reasonable salary, small Xmas bonus, pension etc.


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    #49
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Cretin level eh? :pac:

    I cant spell at least it made you laugh :p


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    #50
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Even CS level jobs are grand, company dependant.

    Healthcare, reasonable salary, small Xmas bonus, pension etc.

    That is way I don't get the obsession with the public service, teaching, nursing, as a bell weather for good conditions of employment, you really would thing that half the employment in Ireland consisted of being sent down a salt mine to work as a slave and the other half consisted of lottery type salaries and condition's. The world of work is very diverse.


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    #51
    PMBC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    Two general issues are being raised on this thread but they both relate to woking conditions - Irish workers and workers overseas e.g. Bangladesh sweat factories. There is a general trend in the developed economies to effect economies in business by reducing labour costs and even minimum wages may not be enough to overcome that. Very few people call for Socialism and it was never very popular in Ireland. Some posters seem to be fine with zero hours or very low fixed hours but most posters, and I'm open to correction on that are not. At least one poster has voted with their feet and does not shop at those big retailers but it will take more than that to change things. Its curious that while labour costs/conditions are being reduced, profits are rising and CEOs are being better rewarded. Recently BPs CEO ran into trouble over approval of his annual salary of +£3 m. while the group lost +£6 bn. In the USA figures show a huge movement of 'wealth' from labour to Capital. It is indeed a race to the bottom as the lower rewards to workers result in less consumption, whether or not the idea of increasing consumption is logical, in any case.
    So what to do? A concerted effort is needed to make the case to those who can effect change - politicians (including Unions), public opinion and businesses. Businesses will respond if they see that their bottom line is being affected and politicians will if there are enough people involved to scupper their next appearance in front of the electorate. A master strategist and one with charisma is needed - attributes which I don't have, unfortunately. But I can type.


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    #52
    PMBC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    gandalf wrote: »
    In this day and age zero hour contracts are disgusting and really should be banned. Whats the best way to achieve this, by targeting the companies that indulge in work practices like this and educating the consumer. I avoid using Dunnes because of these work practices. I wasn't aware M&S were up to it so I will avoid using them as well. I don't shop in Tesco any more because their fruit and veg goes off too quickly after getting it home but this gives me another reason to avoid using them.

    Consumer awareness and power will change these companies. If they see their bottom line being effected then they will change. It also gives the companies that don't practice these tainted HR policies the ability to show that they are progressive employers who care about their staff being able to make ends meat!

    Well done, voting with your feet.


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    #53
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    mariaalice wrote: »
    That is way I don't get the obsession with the public service, teaching, nursing, as a bell weather for good conditions of employment, you really would thing that half the employment in Ireland consisted of being sent down a salt mine to work as a slave and the other half consisted of lottery type salaries and condition's. The world of work is very diverse.

    Maybe I'm biased, I dunno. I picked a career that involves paying for the privilege of turning up to work for at least the first few years!


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    #54
    PMBC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Maybe I'm biased, I dunno. I picked a career that involves paying for the privilege of turning up to work for at least the first few years!

    That's a new one on me! Can you enlarge without disclosing too much?

    Perhaps (?)mariaice is correct and the problem is only on a small scale. But if it effects most of the big retailers then its a reasonably big number, I think.


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    #55
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I don't agree with 0 hour contract and their should be good conditions of employment, however you would need to define good conditions first though.

    Anyone know what % of the work force are on 0 hours contracts.

    It seems to be harder to get established in a career and the starting age of a career type job is rising.

    The barriers to adulthood in western societies are rising all the time as far as I can see, it was much easier to buy a house when I was young for example.


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    #56
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    PMBC wrote: »
    That's a new one on me! Can you enlarge without disclosing too much?

    Perhaps (?)mariaice is correct and the problem is only on a small scale. But if it effects most of the big retailers then its a reasonably big number, I think.

    I was in retail for many years and decided that swanning about in a cape was going to be much more fun so am in the process of becoming a barrister. I've taken the bar route to the bar, i.e. most of my time is spent in bars.

    Payroll is the biggest bill in retail hence they always try and cut corners. 70% of retail staff are only there as it was easy employment, it's not a career for the vast majority. The ones that want to make it a career can do if they wish and full time, quite well paid, work is there for people that want it.


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    #57
    PMBC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    PMBC wrote: »
    That's a new one on me! Can you enlarge without disclosing too much?

    Perhaps (?)mariaice is correct and the problem is only on a small scale. But if it effects most of the big retailers then its a reasonably big number, I think.

    Apologies mariaalice for the wrong naming


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    #58
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    Interviewed for a few jobs the last while that would require 2 buses or a bus and a luas way to get to. Most to them were 4*4 hour shifts at minimum wage. so 16*9.15 = 146 - 27.50 minimum transport. I would be down about €70, and would have no time to find more worth while work with all the travel etc.


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    #59
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Interviewed for a few jobs the last while that would require 2 buses or a bus and a luas way to get to. Most to them were 4*4 hour shifts at minimum wage. so 16*9.15 = 146 - 27.50 minimum transport. I would be down about €70, and would have no time to find more worth while work with all the travel etc.

    I completely understand the decision not to take those jobs, but no time to find other work - pull the other one. I know people who've done PhDs working similar jobs with crappy commutes.


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    #60
    PMBC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    I was in retail for many years and decided that swanning about in a cape was going to be much more fun so am in the process of becoming a barrister. I've taken the bar route to the bar, i.e. most of my time is spent in bars.

    Payroll is the biggest bill in retail hence they always try and cut corners. 70% of retail staff are only there as it was easy employment, it's not a career for the vast majority. The ones that want to make it a career can do if they wish and full time, quite well paid, work is there for people that want it.



    Well done and you have the added advantage that, if like me you are 'follicly challenged' you can put on the wig. However it is a hard path except for those who make it. Best of luck.
    You are saying therefore that these 'poor conditions' only apply to the minority?


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    #61
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    An interesting point both of mine worked in retail when they were teen's and both were offered a rout in to management, now when the the older one considered it, the job was trainee manager, however it had changed to supervisor by the time the second was in the same position.

    They didn't do it, but the first worked in the head office for a while which she described as a nightmare.


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