Employment Conditions.

FixdePitchmark

Not sure this the right Topic for this - but at the same time ,great to get a wide range of views outside of the political classes. Also , here we will get a wider range of experiences in employment.

There is a debate going on at present about the conditions of employment of new staff entering various jobs in the private and public sector. This was going on in the background in UK due to the zero hour contract debate and job bridge issue in Ireland.

The Luas
The Garda
The Teachers
The Nurses

Have all added to this debate.

But this evening I was told about some of the extraordinary management coups the likes of Dunnes Stores - Marks and Spencers have puled off in the last few years.

In particular a practice where you have a 4 hour shift so you have no break :eek: - then you are sent home for a casual labour type.

I'm sure this is only 1 example.

But to ask the question.

Will this generation make a labour movement to reclaim workers rights ?
What on earth were the Labour party at, not making these more serious issues number 1 on their policies - they delivered water charges :eek:
Are this generation just not bothered and go with the no break 17 hour a week contract with no actual long term meaningful contract ?

What on earth is going on in employment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

"Stick the politicians on minimum wage and see how fast things change..."
- I don't know.

the evasion_kid

The recession set workers rights back years..

FixdePitchmark

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

"Stick the politicians on minimum wage and see how fast things change..."
- I don't know.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a fair min wage - but what some of these companies are doing is basically trying to place people - often in mid 40s etc on an average of 200 euro a week :eek:
They don't even know their income the following week

These are people who are willing and need the 40 hours - the company is extraordinarily profitable , it is basically slave labour. Or bypassing the spirit min wage.

It is actually sick

FixdePitchmark

the evasion_kid wrote: »

The recession set workers rights back years..

I agree - I think you hit a line were - this generation , need to honestly have a rethink.

Labour were almost eradicated in the last election :eek:

MarkAnthony

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

In particular a practice where you have a 4 hour shift so you have no break :eek: - then you are sent home for a casual labour type.

What's wrong with that exactly?

the evasion_kid

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with a fair min wage - but what some of these companies are doing is basically trying to place people - often in mid 40s etc on an average of 200 euro a week :eek:
They don't even know their income the following week

These are people who are willing and need the 40 hours - the company is extraordinarily profitable , it is basically slave labour. Or bypassing the spirit min wage.

It is actually sick

I've a friend who works for one of the richest people in Ireland,he works crazy shifts and was telling me the extra euro an hour they got for Sunday's was cut,he's on minimum wage,what he's only realising is,is that if they could get away with paying you 3 euro an hour....They would

MarkAnthony

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I've a friend who works for one of the richest people in Ireland,he works crazy shifts and was telling me the extra euro an hour they got for Sunday's was cut,he's on minimum wage,what he's only realising is,is that if they could get away with paying you 3 euro an hour....They would

How do you think they got to be one of the richest people in Ireland?

Why doesn't he work for himself?

FixdePitchmark

MarkAnthony wrote: »

What's wrong with that exactly?

You get no break.

This enables large companies to remove any paid break from a large group of staff.

Beside just being horrendously mean - it basically reduces the hours of regular life time staff members for casual labour. It places regular staff on a 17 hour week - travel to and from work must be at least 1 hour per shift - this shift is over 4 days - you are working for 17 hour no break , travelling for 4 hours and paid about 170 euro a week. Seriously.

The casual labour are only doing the job in a casual way - so their employment at a reduced rate , remove a basic right, entitlement of an employment right that was established over decades - you are actually entitled to a paid break - imagine that :eek:

Shock horror - a break , a real job, a permanent job.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

I work 10 hour shifts with two, yes two 15 min breaks all night. Barely have enough time to eat a sandwich. All legal.

Edit: unpaid breaks too.

Just saying.

cerastes

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I agree - I think you hit a line were - this generation , need to honestly have a rethink.

Labour were almost eradicated in the last election :eek:

Eradicated, and yet I hear they could still get into Govt, the people have spoken but, that's just not good enough, it just has not been heard, no surprises really.

I dont understand why Organisations doing this could at least put their employees in a situation where they could claim for the rest of the week, but in many circumstances, they expect a few hours to be worked each day, which in my understanding prevents the person even claiming for these days, even though they may have been on call all week waiting to get minimum hours at minimum rate.
I thought Dunnes were actually giving full hours to part time staff, but tha it wasn't garaunteed,
Is there anyone not doing this, I'll make a point of not spending my money somewhere if their practices are questionable.
Its all the more reason I would not even consider supporting the likes of the Luas drivers, Gardai or anyone in established jobs, where reasonable pay, opportunities and benefits exist already.

esforum

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What on earth is going on in employment.

Its pretty simple, divide and conquor.

If you read the threads you would have seen that while many people defend their fellow worker, there was also a decent amount of people that were just jealous and wanted to drug other workers down

This becomes a race to the bottom and ultimately the workers lose.

This was evident in 2007 / 2008. I doubt any person in AH had any hand in the collapse of the country but somehow it went from being reckless goverment and greedy bigwigs committing corrupt practices to the greedy workers, the lazy public sector, the unemployed and somehow the retired

(You arent entitled to a paid break though, some may have negotitated that but its not a right)

FixdePitchmark

the evasion_kid wrote: »

I've a friend who works for one of the richest people in Ireland,he works crazy shifts and was telling me the extra euro an hour they got for Sunday's was cut,he's on minimum wage,what he's only realising is,is that if they could get away with paying you 3 euro an hour....They would

And yes you need crazy people like them to push the envelope.

But - they need to be put in their box too.


The next generation , need to retake control of employment conditions.

But there should be an all out black out of M&S - Tescos - Dunnes.
In fact that is a good idea the Black Out - target companies that are targeting employees.

They should be named and shamed.

Add others to the list.

M&S
Tescos
Dunnes

FixdePitchmark

The Hunky Monster wrote: »

I work 10 hour shifts with two, yes two 15 min breaks all night. Barely have enough time to eat a sandwich. All legal.

Edit: unpaid breaks too.

Just saying.

What is the shift allowance ?

Unpaid - twisted.

wonski

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not sure this the right Topic for this - but at the same time ,great to get a wide range of views outside of the political classes. Also , here we will get a wider range of experiences in employment.

There is a debate going on at present about the conditions of employment of new staff entering various jobs in the private and public sector. This was going on in the background in UK due to the zero hour contract debate and job bridge issue in Ireland.

The Luas
The Garda
The Teachers
The Nurses

Have all added to this debate.

But this evening I was told about some of the extraordinary management coups the likes of Dunnes Stores - Marks and Spencers have puled off in the last few years.

In particular a practice where you have a 4 hour shift so you have no break :eek: - then you are sent home for a casual labour type.

I'm sure this is only 1 example.

But to ask the question.

Will this generation make a labour movement to reclaim workers rights ?
What on earth were the Labour party at, not making these more serious issues number 1 on their policies - they delivered water charges :eek:
Are this generation just not bothered and go with the no break 17 hour a week contract with no actual long term meaningful contract ?

What on earth is going on in employment.

It is not just Dunnes or M&S that tried it.

German supermarkets were at it for years.
And all other supermarkets to be fair.

All over the world.

FixdePitchmark

cerastes wrote: »

Eradicated, and yet I hear they could still get into Govt, the people have spoken but, that's just not good enough, it just has not been heard, no surprises really.

I dont understand why Organisations doing this could at least put their employees in a situation where they could claim for the rest of the week, but in many circumstances, they expect a few hours to be worked each day, which in my understanding prevents the person even claiming for these days, even though they may have been on call all week waiting to get minimum hours at minimum rate.
I thought Dunnes were actually giving full hours to part time staff, but tha it wasn't garaunteed,
Is there anyone not doing this, I'll make a point of not spending my money somewhere if their practices are questionable.
Its all the more reason I would not even consider supporting the likes of the Luas drivers, Gardai or anyone in established jobs, where reasonable pay, opportunities and benefits exist already.

Your point is well made - but the "established jobs" - are the vehicle that create the conditions and expectations of all -if you don't have an ideal or an opposing force to rampant crazy work conditions - one of theses crazy bonus chasing accountants would have you on 3 euro an hour on a Sunday as explained. He drives off to his bungalow bliss in a BMW spouting ****e about "deee unions ruin everything"

As for tas exile companies - also with poor employment conditions in their country of residence - one crazy situation at a time.

Back to basics - people are marching over water - yet some people are on min wage for zero hour contracts - whilst jobbridge fill the gaps.

MarkAnthony

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You get no break.

This enables large companies to remove any paid break from a large group of staff.

Beside just being horrendously mean - it basically reduces the hours of regular life time staff members for casual labour. It places regular staff on a 17 hour week - travel to and from work must be at least 1 hour per shift - this shift is over 4 days - you are working for 17 hour no break , travelling for 4 hours and paid about 170 euro a week. Seriously.

The casual labour are only doing the job in a casual way - so their employment at a reduced rate , remove a basic right, entitlement of an employment right that was established over decades - you are actually entitled to a paid break - imagine that :eek:

Shock horror - a break , a real job, a permanent job.

Why do you need a break on a four hour shift?

Some people want to work PT and want to be in and out. I know I do. No one is forcing someone to work for minimum wage, the market dictates someone's value as an employee. In a country with free education all the way through to third level I'm not really sure what the issue is here.

MarkAnthony

The Hunky Monster wrote: »

I work 10 hour shifts with two, yes two 15 min breaks all night. Barely have enough time to eat a sandwich. All legal.

Edit: unpaid breaks too.

Just saying.

Nope, it's not legal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/12/enacted/en/html#sec12

esforum

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Nope, it's not legal.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/12/enacted/en/html#sec12

if the first 15 minutes break is included in the 30 minute break then you get 30 minutes every 6 hours. and 1 hour after 12 hours. If he works ten hours he should be offered a single 30 minute break but personally would rather 2 x 15.

Still ****ty though

MarkAnthony

esforum wrote: »

if the first 15 minutes break is included in the 30 minute break then you get 30 minutes every 6 hours. and 1 hour after 12 hours. If he works ten hours he should be offered a single 30 minute break but personally would rather 2 x 15.

Still ****ty though

What the person prefers is irrelevant though. A 30 minute break is required. An employer would be well advised to provide another break to maintain productivity but they can't do that by cutting the 30 minute break in half. They also can't combine two 30 minute breaks to an hour break after 12 hours.

esforum

esforum wrote: »

If he works ten hours he should be offered a single 30 minute break

MarkAnthony wrote: »

A 30 minute break is required. An employer would be well advised to provide another break to maintain productivity but they can't do that by cutting the 30 minute break in half.

is that not the same thing?

esforum wrote: »

personally would rather 2 x 15.

That should have read I personally would rather.

MarkAnthony

esforum wrote: »

is that not the same thing?

That should have read I personally would rather.

Sorry you've lost me - is not what the same thing? 2 x 15 minutes breaks is not the same thing as a 30 minute break. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

esforum

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Sorry you've lost me - is not what the same thing? 2 x 15 minutes breaks is not the same thing as a 30 minute break. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

I was agreeing with you but saying I would rather get 2 breaks, thats all

MarkAnthony

esforum wrote: »

I was agreeing with you but saying I would rather get 2 breaks, thats all

Sorry it's late

RIGHTisRIGHT

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Sorry it's late

Maybe the two you need to take a break but hurry back it won't be paid.:D

FixdePitchmark

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

M&S
Tescos
Dunnes

All the more Meals for Two left over for the rest of us...

While I do think one always needs to be concerned about conditions, I'm not sure I would consider breaks such an issue.

thattequilagirl

What kind of breaks do you think people should be getting in a four hour shift?!

Rabo Karabekian

thattequilagirl wrote: »

What kind of breaks do you think people should be getting in a four hour shift?!

Is the problem not that these places are now only giving workers four hour shifts per day in order to not have to pay them for breaks?

Maybe I'm missing something.

lawred2

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You get no break.

This enables large companies to remove any paid break from a large group of staff.

Beside just being horrendously mean - it basically reduces the hours of regular life time staff members for casual labour. It places regular staff on a 17 hour week - travel to and from work must be at least 1 hour per shift - this shift is over 4 days - you are working for 17 hour no break , travelling for 4 hours and paid about 170 euro a week. Seriously.

The casual labour are only doing the job in a casual way - so their employment at a reduced rate , remove a basic right, entitlement of an employment right that was established over decades - you are actually entitled to a paid break - imagine that :eek:

Shock horror - a break , a real job, a permanent job.

You are clearly not working 17 hours with no break.

Also; 4 hours is hardly an eternity. Most people will work four hours straight every day..

Having said that - if someone is seeking full time work; I think those companies capable of doing so should offer them such work.. This sort of a job is an insult to anyone who isn't a teenager, student or someone wanting to work PT. So there is a place for these sort of contracts. But in my opinion only for those who actively seek them.

marketty

the evasion_kid wrote:

The recession set workers rights back years..

Agree 100%, and it's why I will never vote for Labour again, they utterly failed to represent the working man as employers public and private scrambled to the bottom. Unemployment may be falling but the amount of people in precarious jobs or underemployment is rising, in my experience.

gandalf

In this day and age zero hour contracts are disgusting and really should be banned. Whats the best way to achieve this, by targeting the companies that indulge in work practices like this and educating the consumer. I avoid using Dunnes because of these work practices. I wasn't aware M&S were up to it so I will avoid using them as well. I don't shop in Tesco any more because their fruit and veg goes off too quickly after getting it home but this gives me another reason to avoid using them.

Consumer awareness and power will change these companies. If they see their bottom line being effected then they will change. It also gives the companies that don't practice these tainted HR policies the ability to show that they are progressive employers who care about their staff being able to make ends meat!

CelticRambler

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

These are people who are willing and need the 40 hours - the company is extraordinarily profitable , it is basically slave labour. Or bypassing the spirit min wage.

This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:

RIGHTisRIGHT

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:

Would you let me have the hard crusts off your table while I spent the night in your barn sleeping with the pigs or would you shoot me for wondering too close to your land?:D

FTA69

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is the same argument that the French are using at the moment to crush the proposed reforms of the Code du travail here (labour law). It's nonsensical.

First of all, it doesn't matter how profitable or otherwise the company is: there's no legal or moral obligation on anyone to give work to "the poor". Sure, as a kind soul, I might offer a tenner to some lad to do a job that doesn't really need to be done because he needs a tenner, but that's a one-off. No-one has a right to paid employment.

Secondly, there is no "spirit of minimum wage". It's an imaginary figure that makes westerners feel good about themselves while happily exploiting other people working for 20-50cents an hour in the Middle and Far East. When I say "westerners" I'm not referring to the likes of M&S, Dunnes, Tesco, McDonald's, Apple, etc - I'm talking about the vast majority of the public who go shopping in those places and buy the stuff those far-away workers were exploited to produce.

Go work in India or Bangladesh or some back-alley factory in China for a couple of months, then come back and complain about Employment Conditions in Ireland/Europe. :mad:

I've been to Bangladesh and met garment workers and their representatives and they get a very raw deal indeed. Funnily enough though, the types of people exploiting the sh*t out of them are the same people on this side of the world attempting to drive down pay and conditions e.g. Sports Direct, various retail giants etc.

The only difference is that here in Europe we had a long and hard struggle to pull workers out of the sort of penury we are currently seeing in Asia. Exploitation in one part of the world does not become ok because it's worse in another part.

Conall Cernach

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You get no break.

This enables large companies to remove any paid break from a large group of staff.

Beside just being horrendously mean - it basically reduces the hours of regular life time staff members for casual labour. It places regular staff on a 17 hour week - travel to and from work must be at least 1 hour per shift - this shift is over 4 days - you are working for 17 hour no break , travelling for 4 hours and paid about 170 euro a week. Seriously.

The casual labour are only doing the job in a casual way - so their employment at a reduced rate , remove a basic right, entitlement of an employment right that was established over decades - you are actually entitled to a paid break - imagine that :eek:

Shock horror - a break , a real job, a permanent job.

I've come across this a few times where a large multinational employer has staff on less than 19 hours a week spread over 4 days. This means that staff cannot qualify for either FIS (you need 19 hours pw for that) or dole for a 3 day week. It's almost as if some employers are trying to make it hard for employees.

languagenerd

The biggest issue with employment conditions IMO is the floods of unpaid internships now taking over from real jobs. Why do we have a minimum wage if it can waived entirely with this loophole? When I was job-hunting last year, about 90% of the entry level jobs in my field were unpaid internships or JobBridge. There's one very well-known Irish company that regularly advertises vacancies for a 9-month unpaid 40-hr-a-week internship for which you need prior experience in the relevant area. It's bull****. If you already have experience, why would you need 9 months of a slavery internship to gain it?! That's an actual job right there, a full-time job that should be paid for. People take sign up because they're desperate, because you're told you'll never get anything but a low-paid job without one - but you need a load of savings or generous parents to be able to do it, so it's also cutting off opportunities for anyone who can't afford to live on nothing for almost a year. And yet the politicians/unions/etc won't do anything about it.

KomradeBishop

Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.

the evasion_kid

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.

Just an observation but people are too numbified and dumbified by capitalism,too worried about losing the few crumbs they are receiving.I've said this for a while but we need national strikes,this includes everyone form the working poor to the I'm alright jacks,the only way you are going to see change is when you affect production.

MarkAnthony

You two carry on but the reason most people aren't politically active is it's a complete non-issue. Most people are relatively happy and the ones that aren't have two options.

(i) change the country,

(ii) find a better job.

Option (ii) seems to be the easier option.

esforum

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Good thread OP - I'm curious, why do people in the thread affected by this, not seem to have more of an interest in being politically active about it?

That's one thing that I find very confusing - a lot of people being severely negatively affected directly/personally, with some very obvious/blatant injustices occurring, but people don't seem to be very politically active in the face of that - yet that needs to happen if it is to ever change.

i am forbidden to engage in labour or political activism

funnily enough, it was my boss that made doing so an arrestable offence

did you know that criminals can run for office but the Gardai that arrest them and the prison officers that detain them cant? They actually have more political freedom that servants of the state

FortySeven

MarkAnthony wrote: »

You two carry on but the reason most people aren't politically active is it's a complete non-issue. Most people are relatively happy and the ones that aren't have two options.

(i) change the country,

(ii) find a better job.

Option (ii) seems to be the easier option.

Rubbish. People feel powerless.

Watching the well off getting bailed out by the worst off during the recession made sure we know our place. We can't even get the fexkers in power out. See Labour for an example.

MarkAnthony

FortySeven wrote: »

Rubbish. People feel powerless.

Watching the well off getting bailed out by the worst off during the recession made sure we know our place. We can't even get the fexkers in power out. See Labour for an example.

Eh?

I don't feel powerless, I was shut out of the career path I'd like for a couple of years but things happen. I worked PT and studied - those 4 hour shifts were pretty useful to me.

The wife just got a new job and pay raise.

My best mate got let go, could see it coming. A day later on linkedin he was getting set up for half a dozen new jobs, one he finally got, better hours, closer to home more money...

At work, one of the other PT left, 40K a year FT job now the kids are a bit older. Another guy on the team (of 15 or so) better job, better hours leaving shortly, the rest of us are pretty content but the employer is seeing many leave and get better jobs. Relatively large pay rise last year, another this year to adjust to keep competitive on salary.

FixdePitchmark

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not sure this the right Topic for this - but at the same time ,great to get a wide range of views outside of the political classes. Also , here we will get a wider range of experiences in employment.

There is a debate going on at present about the conditions of employment of new staff entering various jobs in the private and public sector. This was going on in the background in UK due to the zero hour contract debate and job bridge issue in Ireland.

The Luas
The Garda
The Teachers
The Nurses

Have all added to this debate.



But this evening I was told about some of the extraordinary management coups the likes of Dunnes Stores - Marks and Spencers have puled off in the last few years.

In particular a practice where you have a 4 hour shift so you have no break :eek: - then you are sent home for a casual labour type.



I'm sure this is only 1 example.

But to ask the question.

Will this generation make a labour movement to reclaim workers rights ?
What on earth were the Labour party at, not making these more serious issues number 1 on their policies - they delivered water charges :eek:
Are this generation just not bothered and go with the no break 17 hour a week contract with no actual long term meaningful contract ?

What on earth is going on in employment.

The problem with that is that it is all the open to public scrutiny, there are lots of occupations and company's with very good conditions of employment, for example I have a relative working for the Irish division of a French financial institution, as well as bonus, pensions being well paid there is a lot of other padding very expensive Christmas night out ect. now they would all be very well well qualified in the academic sense.

My point is that such conditions are common enough in a lot of sectors no one ever hears about. Insurance is very well rewarded once you get to a cretin level or enter at a cretin level.

esforum

mariaalice wrote: »

My point is that such conditions are common enough in a lot of sectors no one ever hears about. Insurance is very well rewarded once you get to a cretin level or enter at a cretin level.

Mary would disagree

MarkAnthony

Cretin level eh? :pac:

esforum

esforum wrote: »

Mary would disagree

On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.

esforum

mariaalice wrote: »

On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.

no idea, why are you even asking me that?

MarkAnthony

mariaalice wrote: »

On average how much are Actuaries and the like paid, head of finance etc, paid in insurance or financial companies. I am not talking about customer services.

Even CS level jobs are grand, company dependant.

Healthcare, reasonable salary, small Xmas bonus, pension etc.

MarkAnthony

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Cretin level eh? :pac:

I cant spell at least it made you laugh

MarkAnthony

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Even CS level jobs are grand, company dependant.

Healthcare, reasonable salary, small Xmas bonus, pension etc.

That is way I don't get the obsession with the public service, teaching, nursing, as a bell weather for good conditions of employment, you really would thing that half the employment in Ireland consisted of being sent down a salt mine to work as a slave and the other half consisted of lottery type salaries and condition's. The world of work is very diverse.

PMBC

Two general issues are being raised on this thread but they both relate to woking conditions - Irish workers and workers overseas e.g. Bangladesh sweat factories. There is a general trend in the developed economies to effect economies in business by reducing labour costs and even minimum wages may not be enough to overcome that. Very few people call for Socialism and it was never very popular in Ireland. Some posters seem to be fine with zero hours or very low fixed hours but most posters, and I'm open to correction on that are not. At least one poster has voted with their feet and does not shop at those big retailers but it will take more than that to change things. Its curious that while labour costs/conditions are being reduced, profits are rising and CEOs are being better rewarded. Recently BPs CEO ran into trouble over approval of his annual salary of +£3 m. while the group lost +£6 bn. In the USA figures show a huge movement of 'wealth' from labour to Capital. It is indeed a race to the bottom as the lower rewards to workers result in less consumption, whether or not the idea of increasing consumption is logical, in any case.
So what to do? A concerted effort is needed to make the case to those who can effect change - politicians (including Unions), public opinion and businesses. Businesses will respond if they see that their bottom line is being affected and politicians will if there are enough people involved to scupper their next appearance in front of the electorate. A master strategist and one with charisma is needed - attributes which I don't have, unfortunately. But I can type.