Metro South proposed in Dublin transport plan

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 1:13pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0406/779897-dublin-transport-plans/

A new Metro South for Dublin that would link up with Metro North and provide a rail link from Swords to Bride's Glen is part of new transport plans.

The National Transport Authority's strategy sets out decisions for the next 20 years in the Greater Dublin Area and also includes Luas links to Finglas, Lucan, Bray and Poolbeg.

But the Metro West line once planned as an orbital route linking the airport with Tallaght is not included.

The plan also involves the controversial Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system with lines from Blanchardstown to UCD and from Clongriffin to Tallaght.

Another line from Swords/Dublin Airport to the city centre will operate until Metro North is completed.

The BRT system will involve streets becoming bus only. It is opposed by many Dublin businesses who feel it is not suited to a city centre environment.

The Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2016-2035 also plans 16 Core Radial Bus Networks where Dublin Bus vehicles will receive priority on high frequency routes as part of enhanced bus lane provision.

It is also planned to have orbital bus routes that will provide connections from Dún Laoghaire to Kilbarrack, Dundrum to Finglas and Ranelagh to Drumcondra.

There are provisions for an improved cycle network, improved pedestrian facilities and more Park and Ride centres.

It also proposes limits on workplace parking where public transport facilities are available.

Metro South will involve future upgrades of the Luas Green Line and linking up underground with Metro North and on surface to connect with Luas Cross City.

The plan covers 'The Greater Dublin Area' encompassing an area from Arklow, Co Wicklow to just south of Drogheda, Co Louth and west to Monasterevin in Co Kildare and covers regional bus and heavy rail links.

Decisions on which projects to proceed with over the next six years will be published by the end of the year.

I never saw a point in having MN being its own segregated line, this will allow it to go underground to ranelagh (as per plans I have seen), where it will surface and share the existing green line track. It will be a high capacity north / south line, exactly what is needed to take pressure off the m50...

BOHtox · 06-04-2016 1:17pm

Fool me once...

strandroad · 06-04-2016 1:19pm

Lovely but it's stuff of dreams.

Sam Russell · 06-04-2016 1:35pm

So Metro South will run on street from Leopardstown out to Brides Glen? So it is a tram, not a Metro.

Also, back with the bendy-buses. I thought they had been binned.

The Clongriffin Dart link to the airport is quick and cheap and has the ability to shift people to DCC within 20 mins. Why is it not on the list?

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 1:39pm

on the cross city route, we are getting longer trams and stephens green and certain platforms are being extended, surely turning the green line to "metro south" involves only some platform lengthening and I am not sure if anything would have to be done, power wise?

yeah below is a bit about how as part of the current cross city luas work, Stephens Green will have longer platform, to allow for longer trams in the future...

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/stops/st-stephens-green/

there are also plans to extend luas from cherrywood to bray, this is it comes to planning, will no doubt be to metro south standards v the current platform length etc...

Sam Russell · 06-04-2016 1:44pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

on the cross city route, we are getting longer trams and stephens green and certain platforms are being extended, surely turning the green line to "metro south" involves only some platform lengthening and I am not sure if anything would have to be done, power wise?

It is not segregated from the street so they must be trams. The turning radius might also be a problem for Metro trains as well.

I would prefer MN and MS should be done as Dart lines, and as part of a Dart network.

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 1:56pm

It is not segregated from the street so they must be trams. The turning radius might also be a problem for Metro trains as well.

thats why they will surface around ranelagh I believe, the turn at the hilton hotel at charlemont is probably too tight, also I dont know where they could surface before that. There is a good video about this on youtube somewhere...

FreudianSlippers · 06-04-2016 2:22pm

I just looked through the whole Strategy, it seems to boil down to:

1) Finish electrifying lines and complete city centre re-signalling (when!?)
2) Build Metro North (eventually)
3) Build Dart Underground after NM (eventually)
4) In the meantime - BRT ALL OF THE THINGS!
5) Metro South (before 2035)

it's pie-in-the-sky nonsense really.

Take the Maynooth line - does anyone have even the faintest idea when this electrification and DARTification is actually going to happen? Seems they've been talking about it for ages and nothing seems to be going on.
I'll believe they can/will actually build MN/DU when they're managed to complete a relatively simple task such as that!

Victor · 06-04-2016 2:42pm

"Metro" has no fixed definition.

On the Green Line, the loading gauge and therefore the dynamic envelope allows for wider rail vehicles.

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 2:51pm

"Metro" has no fixed definition.

On the Green Line, the loading gauge and therefore the dynamic envelope allows for wider rail vehicles.

that was my understanding too, on both of your points...

Sam Russell · 06-04-2016 4:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats why they will surface around ranelagh I believe, the turn at the hilton hotel at charlemont is probably too tight, also I dont know where they could surface before that. There is a good video about this on youtube somewhere...

But they are roadside from Sandyford out the Ballyogan Road and onto Brides Glen, so Trams not Metro trains.

My understanding (which might well be wrong) is that trams are designed for running in pedestrian areas while metro trains are not. Metro trains are also higher capacity, much faster, and can be coupled together in normal running (like the Dart).

In capacity terms you have bus (75) tram (200) metro (500-1,000) Dart (1,000-2,000). or something like that.

I am not sure whether trams and metros can be mixed on the same line, like Metro South goes from Sandyford into Ranelagh and goes underground to SSG and onto MN and the Airport, Swords. Luas goes as it does now - Brides Glen then SSG and then cross city, all above ground.

Victor · 06-04-2016 4:21pm

A name is just a name. In the Irish context "metro" is a purely artificial construct, with no legal or technical definition, whereas light rail and heavy rail are much more defined.

It is largely expected that Metro North / South would operate with vehicles not dissimilar to the exiting Luas vehicles, although the would likely be wider and longer.

Luas would be better described as "light rail" or even "pre-metro" (not Red Line in the city centre) than tram.

While many metro-style trains around the world are mid- or high-floored, there is no obligation for them to be so. So stops in other countries have split-level stops.

Most of the world's trams and trains operate on standard gauge track, to varying loading gauges.

There is no fundamental restriction to metro operating at ground level (perfectly common, tunnels are expensive) or on-street (although this would be relatively rare).

Depending on the number & size of vehicles and overall power demand, extra power supplies may be required.

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 4:30pm

I found the video I was referring to, its over an hour long... Cant recall exactly when the "metro" surfacing in Ranelagh is discussed. I have no doubt Dublin will get all of this, when is the question though! Doesnt surprise me in the least to see Metro west off the agenda...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXYfE7Exi0w

Sam Russell · 06-04-2016 6:52pm

Victor wrote: »

A name is just a name. In the Irish context "metro" is a purely artificial construct, with no legal or technical definition, whereas light rail and heavy rail are much more defined.

It is largely expected that Metro North / South would operate with vehicles not dissimilar to the exiting Luas vehicles, although the would likely be wider and longer.

Luas would be better described as "light rail" or even "pre-metro" (not Red Line in the city centre) than tram.

While many metro-style trains around the world are mid- or high-floored, there is no obligation for them to be so. So stops in other countries have split-level stops.

Most of the world's trams and trains operate on standard gauge track, to varying loading gauges.

There is no fundamental restriction to metro operating at ground level (perfectly common, tunnels are expensive) or on-street (although this would be relatively rare).

Depending on the number & size of vehicles and overall power demand, extra power supplies may be required.

I have always thought that the gauge of the Luas should have been 1.6m and not 4ft 8.5 inches. If the gauge was 1.6m then it would be possible to adjust the green line to be Dart from Ranelagh to Sandyford quite easily. I am not sure you could have shared running. (What advantage that would have, I am not sure, but it would allow options with some of the unused rail lines around the city).

Light rail does include metro and trams, but metro systems are normally used for underground, surfacing only in the suburbs. This allows them to run faster in the city because they are separated from pedestrians. Why restrict all of this expensive infrastructure to cheaper solutions that achieve lesser results for nearly as much investment?

Idbatterim · 06-04-2016 6:59pm

Light rail does include metro and trams, but metro systems are normally used for underground, surfacing only in the suburbs. This allows them to run faster in the city because they are separated from pedestrians. Why restrict all of this expensive infrastructure to cheaper solutions that achieve lesser results for nearly as much investment?

I agree with you, but Irish politics is the answer and it wont change any time soon... But you are totally right, about doing things that dont make sense, but thats the approach here, slowly slowly, better to do things in small bites than big chunks and the end result is usually more expensive and inferior. But they can usually be sold to the public that way and get political approval...

murphaph · 06-04-2016 8:50pm

The NTA boys and girls have to produce some output to justify their presumably generous salaries I suppose. That's all this is.

Van.Bosch · 06-04-2016 8:53pm

murphaph wrote: »

The NTA boys and girls have to produce some output to justify their presumably generous salaries I suppose. That's all this is.

A bit unfair I would say. They do good analysis, come up with good solutions. It's not their fault we don't have the cash and or vision to build it

D.L.R. · 06-04-2016 10:31pm

Same old guff. Hard to get excited about any of this.

Sick and tired of reports and 20 year plans and announcements of the same stuff over and over again.

And at the end of the day, no investment in building any of it.

Pathetic.

Carawaystick · 08-04-2016 8:57am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Clongriffin Dart link to the airport is quick and cheap and has the ability to shift people to DCC within 20 mins. Why is it not on the list?

Because you could do it quicker using the M1, M50 and allowing this dedicated service use the tram lines from the Point up to Abbey St.
You can do it quicket outside of rush hour without using the tram lines at the minute.

spacetweek · 10-04-2016 7:35pm

Another line from Swords/Dublin Airport to the city centre will operate until Metro North is completed.

What's that? Is that not Clongriffen-Airport?

spacetweek · 10-04-2016 7:50pm

The right way to build Metro North would be to continue the city-centre tunnel the short distance to Ranelagh since they'll be drilling anyway. That way you avoid having the drill launch site at Stephen's Green (that station could be mined) and creating Metro South would just be a case of tying the Ranelagh tunnel entrance into the Luas Green Line.

yermanoffthetv · 10-04-2016 7:54pm

Just a quick question (and deep in Walter Mitty territory) Instead of this ridiculousness with a half arsed metro lite, would it be possible to upgrade the green line to dart standard as far as grand parade? Im wondering about the width on the bridges like Milltown etc? I know its fantasy Im just curious if its even possible. The idea of a metro running right down the middle of Dublin is great but whats being proposed is an under-capacity shambles of a rollercoaster. If all were going to get is proposals for 20 years at least make them good ones!

"The right way to build Metro North would be to continue the city-centre tunnel the short distance to Ranelagh since they'll be drilling anyway. That way you avoid having the drill launch site at Stephen's Green (that station could be mined) and creating Metro South would just be a case of tying the Ranelagh tunnel entrance into the Luas Green Line."

Thats what is being done, using the space behind the old Irish Nationwide HQ as the tunnel portal

Idbatterim · 11-04-2016 11:48am

I have asked emailed the NTA to find out when the hearing on this scheme will be, as I am sure a lot of us will have opinions we want on record. Agreed that it should go right out to Ranelagh and 90m platforms, the other cost cutting measures, dont really bother me, I dont think we are going to get original metro north scheme ever, the cost is simply too much for our politicians to stomach.

But atleast have 90m platforms and go straight out to ranelagh. m50 upgrade further is just not viable, and metro west is off agenda, Metro north could take a good deal of traffic off m50...

ok just received this from NTA

"Dear X

The Authority has commenced initial work on the design and planning stages of new Metro North in collaboration with Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), and in line with our Project Management Guidelines. The key objective of this first phase will be to determine the Emerging Preferred Route. This will be informed by a number of key work streams and studies. After completion of the this work there will be some public consultation carried out. This will be next year at earliest.

Thereafter, the Authority, in their role as Sanctioning Authority, will prepare a detailed business case for the project based on more detailed design and cost estimates of the Emerging Preferred Route prior to lodging the Railway Order for the proposed scheme. The comprehensive appraisal will be conducted in accordance with the Government's Public Spending Code.

Kind Regards

NTA"

Goat Paddock · 12-04-2016 12:36am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have asked emailed the NTA to find out when the hearing on this scheme will be, as I am sure a lot of us will have opinions we want on record. Agreed that it should go right out to Ranelagh and 90m platforms, the other cost cutting measures, dont really bother me, I dont think we are going to get original metro north scheme ever, the cost is simply too much for our politicians to stomach.

But atleast have 90m platforms and go straight out to ranelagh. m50 upgrade further is just not viable, and metro west is off agenda, Metro north could take a good deal of traffic off m50...

ok just received this from NTA

"Dear X

The Authority has commenced initial work on the design and planning stages of new Metro North in collaboration with Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), and in line with our Project Management Guidelines. The key objective of this first phase will be to determine the Emerging Preferred Route. This will be informed by a number of key work streams and studies. After completion of the this work there will be some public consultation carried out. This will be next year at earliest.

Thereafter, the Authority, in their role as Sanctioning Authority, will prepare a detailed business case for the project based on more detailed design and cost estimates of the Emerging Preferred Route prior to lodging the Railway Order for the proposed scheme. The comprehensive appraisal will be conducted in accordance with the Government's Public Spending Code.

Kind Regards

NTA"

Check back in 2020, they won't have started building it yet I bet.

spacetweek · 14-04-2016 10:39am

Goat Paddock wrote: »

Check back in 2020, they won't have started building it yet I bet.

Well they said in last year's Capital Spending Plan they wouldn't start it till 2021 so you're right.

spacetweek · 14-04-2016 10:41am

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Thats what is being done, using the space behind the old Irish Nationwide HQ as the tunnel portal

When was this agreed? I don't think that is definitely what is planned.

Dyr · 14-04-2016 10:49am

Sam Russell wrote: »

So Metro South will run on street from Leopardstown out to Brides Glen? So it is a tram, not a Metro.

Also, back with the bendy-buses. I thought they had been binned.

The Clongriffin Dart link to the airport is quick and cheap and has the ability to shift people to DCC within 20 mins. Why is it not on the list?

Dublin can't handle bendy buses, nor can dublin bus

The orbital routes are a good idea if they ever get the go ahead

LXFlyer · 14-04-2016 12:25pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

So Metro South will run on street from Leopardstown out to Brides Glen? So it is a tram, not a Metro.

Also, back with the bendy-buses. I thought they had been binned.

The Clongriffin Dart link to the airport is quick and cheap and has the ability to shift people to DCC within 20 mins. Why is it not on the list?

Bambi wrote: »

Dublin can't handle bendy buses, nor can dublin bus

The orbital routes are a good idea if they ever get the go ahead

BRT is very much still alive with both the Blanchardstown-UCD and Clongriffin-Rathfarnham routes still planned.

Dublin can handle articulated buses - if the infrastructure is put in place. By that I mean extended bus stop bays, retreated stop lines at tight corners for example.

None of that was put in place when those buses were bought and DB were forced to operate them using existing infrastructure which was not fit for purpose.

In fact DB did not want those vehicles for that very reason, but the DTO forced them to take them.

A complete lack of joined up thinking.

That being said I view the articulated vehicles as only suitable on shorter journeys within the M50 (circa 25 mins max from the city centre) and not longer journeys as that will mean more standees than at present. Tri-axle multi-door double decks (like in Berlin) would be more suited to the longer journeys.

Sam Russell · 14-04-2016 12:37pm

lxflyer wrote: »

BRT is very much still alive with both the Blanchardstown-UCD and Clongriffin-Rathfarnham routes still planned.

Dublin can handle articulated buses - if the infrastructure is put in place. By that I mean extended bus stop bays, retreated stop lines at tight corners for example.

None of that was put in place when those buses were bought and DB were forced to operate them using existing infrastructure which was not fit for purpose.

In fact DB did not want those vehicles for that very reason, but the DTO forced them to take them.

A complete lack of joined up thinking.

That being said I view the articulated vehicles as only suitable on shorter journeys within the M50 (circa 25 mins max from the city centre) and not longer journeys as that will mean more standees than at present. Tri-axle multi-door double decks (like in Berlin) would be more suited to the longer journeys.

I have been on tram-like bendy buses that operated from Luton Airport to the railway station. They were fine but slow and clumsy. The old bendy buses (used on the No. 10 route) were dreadful, noisy, slow and clumsy - and bouncy. The passengers were reluctant to move down the back towards the end where the bounce was worse.

The tri-axle buses that are used on the 46A are far better, with the same capacity.

A quad-axle bendy bus would probably be fine as that would eliminate the bounce.

It should be possible to run them on electric overhead wires - trolley buses. They would then also be quiet and faster to accelerate.

Sam Russell · 14-04-2016 12:45pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Because you could do it quicker using the M1, M50 and allowing this dedicated service use the tram lines from the Point up to Abbey St.
You can do it quicket outside of rush hour without using the tram lines at the minute.

Using coaches? A coach carries 70 passengers, a Dart carries up to 1,000. A Dart has 8 pairs of doors, a coach has one. A Dart could run 4 times per hour, that equates to a coach per minute - and that is in addition to coaches to Cork, Belfast, Galway, etc. Hmmm - I see congestion on the circulation roads and at the roundabouts into and out of the Airport.

There is no proper bus station at the Airport - just a bus car park - but that could be fixed easily.

Dyr · 14-04-2016 12:57pm

lxflyer wrote: »

BRT is very much still alive with both the Blanchardstown-UCD and Clongriffin-Rathfarnham routes still planned.

Dublin can handle articulated buses - if the infrastructure is put in place. By that I mean extended bus stop bays, retreated stop lines at tight corners for example.

Yeah that's basically confirming that dublin can't handle them

Here's a better idea, just don't use bendy-bouncy buses

Metro South proposed in Dublin transport plan

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