Metro South proposed in Dublin transport plan

Paddico

Is there a map of this potential route anywhere?

Godge

lxflyer wrote: »

BRT is very much still alive with both the Blanchardstown-UCD and Clongriffin-Rathfarnham routes still planned.

Dublin can handle articulated buses - if the infrastructure is put in place. By that I mean extended bus stop bays, retreated stop lines at tight corners for example.

None of that was put in place when those buses were bought and DB were forced to operate them using existing infrastructure which was not fit for purpose.

In fact DB did not want those vehicles for that very reason, but the DTO forced them to take them.

A complete lack of joined up thinking.

That being said I view the articulated vehicles as only suitable on shorter journeys within the M50 (circa 25 mins max from the city centre) and not longer journeys as that will mean more standees than at present. Tri-axle multi-door double decks (like in Berlin) would be more suited to the longer journeys.

I pass through Stoneybatter three days out of five during the rush hours. Have never seen the bus lanes clear. Pretty impossible to see how BRT will work unless things change.

LXFlyer

Godge wrote: »

I pass through Stoneybatter three days out of five during the rush hours. Have never seen the bus lanes clear. Pretty impossible to see how BRT will work unless things change.

The only way it can work is if the infrastructure is put in place to make it work.

That requires the local councils to get behind it.

Dr_Bill

Dublin has a couple of problems:

Poor Planning has contributed to urban sprawl due to low density, no tall buildings please...
Poor public transport stymied by vested interests by Unions, Councils, Irish Rail, LUAS & Dublin bus.
No actual appetite by successive governments to do anything about it & more recently no money either.
Public attitudes against proposals such as Metro North, Metro South, Dart Underground. Public then frustrated and confused why M50 is a car park. No by-in on the basis we don't need it. We might not need it right now but we do need it later, but by then its too late.

Result:

Nothing changes & public left wondering when they visit other European cities how fantastic their public transport system is and why we couldn't have something similar back at home.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah that's basically confirming that dublin can't handle them

Here's a better idea, just don't use bendy-bouncy buses

Any city where they operate needs to have the proper infrastructure that I outlined above put in place.

Stop twisting my words.

strassenwo!f

This metro south idea raises its head every few years, usually when whatever transport body is currently in place feels that it has to show that it's actually doing something. (or failing that, that it's planning something, or at least talking about something).

There are several reasons why it is poor.

The key reason is that, if Dublin is aspiring to a city-wide LUAS/Metro/DART network, to accompany the bus network, it should attempt to deliver this in such a way that passengers need to make as few changes as possible to get wherever in the city they wish to go.

If this line were to happen, and that goal were to be achieved, potential LUAS/Metro lines which the city might eventually like to build, for, example between the Centre and Terenure/Tallaght and between the Centre and Finglas, would all have to be severely skewed in order to meet up with the proposed metro north/south idea, and several areas of the city which could use better public transport would lose out.

There is also the question of whether an upgrade of the LUAS Green line is appropriate when several of the above mentioned suburbs, which have been patiently paying taxes for decades, get nothing.

If the city is ever to get around to building an initial metro line, Swords to St. Stephen's Green broadly makes sense as a start. If it is to continue with that process - as it inevitably will once the success of that initial part is seen - it should continue the line towards the southwest of the city, hopefully with two branches (perhaps from the Bleeding Horse to Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure and beyond, and from the Bleeding Horse to Harold's Cross, Kimmage and eventually Walkinstown Cross), to maximise the throughput in the most difficult, most expensive tunnelled areas in the centre.

With regard to an eventual upgrade of the Green line to metro standard, I believe that the city should be giving serious consideration to this happening via a route to/from Finglas, with an interchange with the above-mentioned earlier line at St. Stephen's Green (and hopefully with this having branches at either end, to maximise uptake at the ends either side of the city centre). For example, Bride's Glen to Finglas, via St. Stephen's Green, Christchurch, Church Street, Broadstone, the soon-to-be-completed LUAS alignment to Broombridge and Finglas. Once that tunnel were build it opens up the possibility of branches on either side of the tunnel, for example an eventual connection on the southside from St. Stephen's Green to UCD via, say, Donnybrook.

This would give Dubliners a journey of UCD to Walkinstown, Swords to Broadstone, Finglas to Terenure or Broadstone to Rathgar (and many others) with one change. And, of course, from any of those locations to the city, no change.

It would take maybe 20-30 years to develop that fully, but it would be an arrangement which would enable one-change travel in large swathes of the city, for many more suburbs than the metro north/south idea will ever realistically achieve.

murphaph

We can't even build a relatively short tunnel from Heuston to Docklands. This is all fantasy stuff I'm afraid :-(

strassenwo!f

You are quite right that it is total fantasy. I remember back in 2005 when Martin Cullen, Mary Harney and others announced their 'Transport 21' plan to 2015, costing 34.1 billion euro. Not 34, or 35, but the more precise figure of 34.1.

Out of that 34.1 billion, many billions were earmarked for public transport in Dublin, almost none of which ever happened.

The DTO were employed by the State to come up with a realistic plan back in 2000. Martin Cullen and the people behind him were employed by the State to do the same in 2005. Yet effectively none of the proposed improvements to Dublin's transport were ever delivered.

The current transport outfit (apparently called the NTA) produces a plan for the next number of years, nobody believes it, and if you look at the form they're quite right not to.

Stephen15

In an ideal world I'd have every double-decker in the city withdrawn put the infustructure in place to handle bendy buses on main roads and 3 door single dockers on pretty much every other route. A three door single decker can take just as many people standing as a double-decker can sitting. Dwell times are less as buses have three doors and for des sake they're a lot more fuel efficient. In fact I think db should be scrapped and replaced by a local authority it's a pity most of them can't run a piss up in a brewery here in ireland. In an ideal world

Carawaystick

Stephen15 wrote: »

In an ideal world I'd have every double-decker in the city withdrawn put the infustructure in place to handle bendy buses on main roads and 3 door single dockers on pretty much every other route. A three door single decker can take just as many people standing as a double-decker can sitting. Dwell times are less as buses have three doors and for des sake they're a lot more fuel efficient. In fact I think db should be scrapped and replaced by a local authority it's a pity most of them can't run a piss up in a brewery here in ireland. In an ideal world

I see you're planning to reduce capacity at peak times, by replacing a double decker with a single decker. How do you think this would make things better?
unless you're trolling

How would you reduce dwell times if passengers still have to board by the front door?
If passengers don't have to board by the front door, why not implement this new system with the busses Dublin already has?

Stephen15

Carawaystick wrote: »

I see you're planning to reduce capacity at peak times, by replacing a double decker with a single decker. How do you think this would make things better?
unless you're trolling

How would you reduce dwell times if passengers still have to board by the front door?
If passengers don't have to board by the front door, why not implement this new system with the busses Dublin already has?

No I meant bendybuses for the routes that get a decent loading not ordinary single dockers passengers on three door buses passengers enter from the front and back doors and leave from the middle in most European cities I've been in that isint really enforced and passengers can from the door that's nearest to them. I personally think that double deckers look a little bit british for my liking. Even in britain not all buses are double dockers I don't why buses in dublin are double deckers.

murphaph

Stephen15 wrote: »

No I meant bendybuses for the routes that get a decent loading not ordinary single dockers passengers on three door buses passengers enter from the front and back doors and leave from the middle in most European cities I've been in that isint really enforced and passengers can from the door that's nearest to them. I personally think that double deckers look a little bit british for my liking. Even in britain not all buses are double dockers I don't why buses in dublin are double deckers.

These aren't British and these are what get deployed on the busiest routes here in Berlin:
http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.de/bus/Fahrzeuge/Typen/DN04/body_dn04.html

random_guy

murphaph wrote: »

These aren't British and these are what get deployed on the busiest routes here in Berlin:
http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.de/bus/Fahrzeuge/Typen/DN04/body_dn04.html

Double deckers are fine if, as in the Berlin example, you have enough doors for getting on and off (I've never quite understood why Dublin Bus has never gone down this route). The dwell times on normal DB operations are something shocking.

Sam Russell

random_guy wrote: »

Double deckers are fine if, as in the Berlin example, you have enough doors for getting on and off (I've never quite understood why Dublin Bus has never gone down this route). The dwell times on normal DB operations are something shocking.

They could reduce dwell times by only accepting leap cards, and having more than one validator. It would also help if the validator was quicker.

random_guy

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could reduce dwell times by only accepting leap cards, and having more than one validator. It would also help if the validator was quicker.

True enough, but it still much quicker to use multiple doors and it needs to be advertised to everyone that leap cards are now the only way of payment.

I remember years ago in Rome you could buy the Roma Pass that gave a few days travel, free access to 3 museums of your choice along with queue jump at other museums. I don't remember all the details now but it was a very simple scheme. Buy it online in advance or pick it up at the airport. It even came with an info pack and maps etc. I've often wondered if anything like that has ever been considered in Dublin?

Actually is transport in London now run completly with the Oyster card? There has to be some things we can copy.

Sam Russell

random_guy wrote: »

I remember years ago in Rome you could buy the Roma Pass that gave a few days travel, free access to 3 museums of your choice along with queue jump at other museums. I don't remember all the details now but it was a very simple scheme. Buy it online in advance or pick it up at the airport. It even came with an info pack and maps etc. I've often wondered if anything like that has ever been considered in Dublin?

https://www.dublinpass.com

random_guy

Sam Russell wrote: »

https://www.dublinpass.com

Nice!

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could reduce dwell times by only accepting leap cards, and having more than one validator. It would also help if the validator was quicker.

One of the great things about getting the bus in London is the ability to hop on and just swipe your oyster card, no need to say where you're going, or how much it'll be. No zones or any of that messing, just get on and be charged a flat fair.

People getting on and not knowing the exact name of the area/stop they're going to is one of the prime reasons I see for delays.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

One of the great things about getting the bus in London is the ability to hop on and just swipe your oyster card, no need to say where you're going, or how much it'll be. No zones or any of that messing, just get on and be charged a flat fair.

People getting on and not knowing the exact name of the area/stop they're going to is one of the prime reasons I see for delays.

London's set up means that the railways move most of the people, especially on longer commutes. The railways have fare zones. The buses are used for shorter journeys in general. Dublin doesn't have much in rail so buses do the bulk of the work including long commute journeys. If Dublin had 4 or 5 radial high capacity rail routes with buses filling in the gaps and offering orbital journeys then we wouldn't have this issue.

jd

Sam Russell wrote:

They could reduce dwell times by only accepting leap cards, and having more than one validator. It would also help if the validator was quicker.

I agree, but could you imagine the fecking whine line and moaning in the Dail if we tried to move to cashless. This country is incredibly resistant to change.

LXFlyer

London only switched to cashless buses after contactless bank cards became the norm.

Given that one of the main clearing banks in Ireland (Ulster Bank) hasn't even started issuing contactless debit cards yet I don't think we will see it being introduced here just yet.

You need to have the necessary alternative options in place first.

Switching to a single flat fare for buses would also require a fundamental shift in how public transport is funded here. As above Dublin Bus account for 2/3 of public transport journeys in Dublin, most trips being much longer than in London. It may happen in time, but not while the company finances are still in a mess.

Sam Russell

Is there much revenue protection going on with DB? I have never had my ticket checked on a bus, or ever seen inspectors on a bus.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is there much revenue protection going on with DB? I have never had my ticket checked on a bus, or ever seen inspectors on a bus.

There are RPU teams out there yes - not enough in my view.

Markcheese

Godge wrote:

I pass through Stoneybatter three days out of five during the rush hours. Have never seen the bus lanes clear. Pretty impossible to see how BRT will work unless things change.

They'd be clear pretty quick if there was a dedicated bus lane tow truck...
A friend was telling me in tel aviv they use side lift ,fork lift trucks , any damage tough luck ... officially for "security" reasons ,really because israeli's would park on top of you if they thought they'd get away with it..

anothernight

lxflyer wrote: »

London only switched to cashless buses after contactless bank cards became the norm.

Given that one of the main clearing banks in Ireland (Ulster Bank) hasn't even started issuing contactless debit cards yet I don't think we will see it being introduced here just yet.

You don't need contactless cards to have a system where you don't pay the driver using coins though, or one where you don't need to interact with the driver at all.

In Madrid up to the mid 2000s you had magnetic strip tickets: single, which no one ever bought, 10 trips, which was the norm for occasional use, and unlimited monthly/yearly passes. They were cheap, and they could be bought everywhere, as they were sold in metro stations, shops and those kiosks that are in every main street and park. There was no interaction with the bus driver at all (there were ticket machines). The tickets also worked for the metro (back then it was essentially a flat fare, as the first zone ended well outside the city proper). You'd walk in the front of the bus and leave at the back. Even on very busy days the dwelling times were much shorter than in Dublin, as you'd have a constant stream of people walking into the bus and using the machine, and on the other end you'd have people leaving through the back doors. No delays from having people walking in and out through the same door, from having to talk to the driver to pay, etc.

They've now gone cashless with a contactless card on which you can load the old monthly/yearly tickets, but the singles and 10 trip tickets are still a magnetic strip ticket. As far as I can see, the only benefit they got from getting a contactless card is that they now don't have to pay staff who used to sell you the old monthly/yearly tickets (the new card lasts for 7 years and you top it up online). It's not any more convenient to users and dwelling times aren't decreased.


I think I miss using those buses...

strandroad

lxflyer wrote: »

London only switched to cashless buses after contactless bank cards became the norm.

Given that one of the main clearing banks in Ireland (Ulster Bank) hasn't even started issuing contactless debit cards yet I don't think we will see it being introduced here just yet.

You need to have the necessary alternative options in place first.

We do, the leap card.

Sam Russell

That system in Madrid sounds great, but how do they thank the driver?

LXFlyer

mhge wrote: »

We do, the leap card.

It's not enough to go cashless - forcing everyone to get a LEAP card isn't the solution. The contactless payment option needs to be live as well.

You need to bring the public with you on this.

anothernight

Sam Russell wrote: »

That system in Madrid sounds great, but how do they thank the driver?

They don't. I thought that was an Irish thing until I moved to the English midlands where they do it too!

Sam Russell

anothernight wrote: »

They don't. I thought that was an Irish thing until I moved to the English midlands where they do it too!

A lot of Irish live in the English Midlands - that might explain it.