Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

The_Kew_Tour · 09-04-2016 07:01PM

discus wrote: »

Precisely. Students don't value their day to day teacher because they don't see the value in the free education they are getting.

That's a very unfair comment.

Yes they're students who have no interest, but a majority do.

esforum · 09-04-2016 07:22PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Look at Lecturers. They teach to couple hundred sometimes and yet the good ones don't need go around individually

Thats unfair, a lecturer is teaching adults who have made a conscience decision to study that selected field and are there voluntarily.

teachers are often trying to hammer information into children that would have happily stayed in bed if their parents hadnt dragged them to the school gates and dont want to study the subject at all.

You cant have your cake and eat it, either the teacher cant get through to pupils who wont listen, or its a sign of a good teacher that they will get trough to every pupil.

maudgonner wrote: »

We've established that they weren't part of the negotiations for Croke Park. The agreement was still put to their members, who voted by 75% to accept. They were free to turn it down, they didn't. By a clear margin they thought the deal was acceptable. And if it was holding a gun to their heads, if they had absolutely no choice, why did 25% vote it down? Clearly there was a choice, they made it and rather than accept responsibility for it they want to blame someone else.

do you honestly believe that been given a choice of take whats offered or we will do worse is a real choice? Would you rather that the votes were reversed and 75% had rejected and opted to force the issue with a blu flu (or full strike) or is this a simple case that Gardai can do nothing right?

maudgonner wrote: »

And the GRA have been present in subsequent pay agreements, correct?

No, thats incorrect.

The_Kew_Tour · 09-04-2016 07:23PM

esforum wrote: »

Thats unfair, a lecturer is teaching adults who have made a conscience decision to study that selected field and are there voluntarily.

teachers are often trying to hammer information into children that would have happily stayed in bed if their parents hadnt dragged them to the school gates and dont want to study the subject at al

I'm not talking about children who have no interest though, I'm talking about Children who want to learn and are been set back by poor performers

maudgonner · 09-04-2016 07:26PM

esforum wrote: »

No, thats incorrect.

Was the GRA not involved in Haddington Road? Apologies if I got that wrong.

This article says they were though?

esforum · 09-04-2016 07:28PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm not talking about children who have no interest though, I'm talking about Children who want to learn and are been set back by poor performers

who are these children though? You seem convinced they are a common event, I personally dont believe so.

If out of 30 children, even 5 fail the course, thats still 25 that understood the subject and the teacher.

Other way around? yeah, thats a bad teacher probable.

How often is it the majority of a class failing though? I never witnessed it in school even in the classes I would have considered the teacher pretty bad.

If I may, do you remember ratemyteacher? I remember looking up my old school. The difference in genuine ratings was startling. Teachers I thought were great getting bad ratings. Teachers with as many 1 stars as 5 and so on

The_Kew_Tour · 09-04-2016 07:38PM

esforum wrote: »

who are these children though? You seem convinced they are a common event, I personally dont believe so.

If out of 30 children, even 5 fail the course, thats still 25 that understood the subject and the teacher.

Other way around? yeah, thats a bad teacher probable.

How often is it the majority of a class failing though? I never witnessed it in school even in the classes I would have considered the teacher pretty bad.

If I may, do you remember ratemyteacher? I remember looking up my old school. The difference in genuine ratings was startling. Teachers I thought were great getting bad ratings. Teachers with as many 1 stars as 5 and so on

Well I could also ask where are these children with no interest?

I have said previously they're are many great teachers. You ain't going please everyone including myself to a point.

But at end of day all I'm saying is that Teachers should be like any profession. You do your job right you get rewarded. If not you should be given chance to get better, if you can't then teaching is not the profession for you.

Just like 99% of jobs

esforum · 09-04-2016 07:44PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Was the GRA not involved in Haddington Road? Apologies if I got that wrong.

This article says they were though?

government claim they were, GRA say they werent. Lansdowne Road agreement they actually had a seat and a voice.

Now, on the issue of choices, I asked a simple question, please dont dodge it.

esforum · 09-04-2016 07:45PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Well I could also ask where are these children with no interest?

I have said previously they're are many great teachers. You ain't going please everyone including myself to a point.

But at end of day all I'm saying is that Teachers should be like any profession. You do your job right you get rewarded. If not you should be given chance to get better, if you can't then teaching is not the profession for you.

Just like 99% of jobs

sitting at home with no education or getting an expensive daddy paid repeat leaving cert.

and its been said before, the days of a useless teacher being allowed skim along is long gone, its only the myth that remains.

The_Kew_Tour · 09-04-2016 07:56PM

esforum wrote: »

sitting at home with no education or getting an expensive daddy paid repeat leaving cert.

and its been said before, the days of a useless teacher being allowed skim along is long gone, its only the myth that remains.

That's blind talk. Even teachers I know tell me not every teacher is up to standard

maudgonner · 09-04-2016 07:57PM

esforum wrote: »

government claim they were, GRA say they werent. Lansdowne Road agreement they actually had a seat and a voice.

Now, on the issue of choices, I asked a simple question, please dont dodge it.

I don't understand, they claim they weren't part of the negotiations? What does that mean? Were they at the meetings? Did nobody listen to them? They were clearly happy with what was agreed, the membership accepted the deal.

As for your question about choice - you were given a vote. You had the option to accept or reject. You yourself chose to reject. You say that was only as a protest, but what does that mean? Did the members coordinate in such a way as to make sure that less than a majority rejected the deal?
Clearly there was an option to reject it, the membership did not, so they bought into the arrangements that had been negotiated. That includes the pay disparity, that you admit the unions negotiated because they only cared about the people who were members at that time, didn't care what would happen to those who were to come.

Little CuChulainn · 09-04-2016 08:29PM

maudgonner wrote: »

We've established that they weren't part of the negotiations for Croke Park. The agreement was still put to their members, who voted by 75% to accept. They were free to turn it down, they didn't. By a clear margin they thought the deal was acceptable. And if it was holding a gun to their heads, if they had absolutely no choice, why did 25% vote it down? Clearly there was a choice, they made it and rather than accept responsibility for it they want to blame someone else.

And the GRA have been present in subsequent pay agreements, correct? Pay agreements that upheld the pay disparity and were approved by members? So it clearly wasn't a dealbreaker. And it isn't even now, if you're happy to favour pay restoration over pay parity.

No they were not free to turn it down. It would have been imposed anyway. It was voted in favour of because many thought that not accepting it would have been punished with further cuts. There was no choice though. It didn't matter what way the vote went because the government could have done whatever they want.

And exactly what pay agreements were the GRA included in and accepted since then?

esforum · 09-04-2016 08:53PM

maudgonner wrote: »

I don't understand, they claim they weren't part of the negotiations? What does that mean? Were they at the meetings? Did nobody listen to them? They were clearly happy with what was agreed, the membership accepted the deal.

As for your question about choice - you were given a vote. You had the option to accept or reject. You yourself chose to reject. You say that was only as a protest, but what does that mean? Did the members coordinate in such a way as to make sure that less than a majority rejected the deal?
Clearly there was an option to reject it, the membership did not, so they bought into the arrangements that had been negotiated. That includes the pay disparity, that you admit the unions negotiated because they only cared about the people who were members at that time, didn't care what would happen to those who were to come.

I cannot believe a sane and rational person believes this.

esforum · 09-04-2016 08:55PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

That's blind talk. Even teachers I know tell me not every teacher is up to standard

I always find it strange that someone with a serious attitude towards a profession will be friends with people from the profession but thats just me.

I can only go by the cold hard facts that have been stated by teachers already on this thread. I only know 2 and neither work in Ireland having failed to land permanent jobs and getting fed up subbing all the time

r93kaey5p2izun · 09-04-2016 08:58PM

Where does it say that the new entrant pay was part of Croke Park? Was it not imposed by FEMPI legislation completely separate to the agreements.

maudgonner · 09-04-2016 09:21PM

esforum wrote: »

I cannot believe a sane and rational person believes this.

I can assure you that I am rational and relatively sane. But you know what, I'll take your word for it if you say there was absolutely no choice but to accept the agreement. I wasn't there and didn't hear what the GRAs recommendation was.

That does not change the fact that in the pay negotiations that are sure to come about before long, there will be the option to reverse the disparity. And you've already said that you would prefer to maintain that gap and give all Gardaí a payrise instead. You don't want new Gardaí to benefit any more for a pay deal than more senior member, even though they have suffered much more from the austerity measures.

So when you post articles about new Gardaí, teachers and nurses being underpaid, you'll have to forgive me if I consider you a hypocrite.

evolving_doors · 09-04-2016 10:57PM

maudgonner wrote: »

I can assure you that I am rational and relatively sane. But you know what, I'll take your word for it if you say there was absolutely no choice but to accept the agreement. I wasn't there and didn't hear what the GRAs recommendation was.

That does not change the fact that in the pay negotiations that are sure to come about before long, there will be the option to reverse the disparity. And you've already said that you would prefer to maintain that gap and give all Gardaí a payrise instead. You don't want new Gardaí to benefit any more for a pay deal than more senior member, even though they have suffered much more from the austerity measures.

So when you post articles about new Gardaí, teachers and nurses being underpaid, you'll have to forgive me if I consider you a hypocrite.

I think you're confusing payrise with pay restoration.

maryishere · 10-04-2016 12:41AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think you're confusing payrise with pay restoration.

No, the poster said payrise and I think meant payrise. The pay was already restored from a crazy celtic tiger peak height to something slightly more sustainable some years ago.
Celtic tiger public service pay levels were only partly justified when the government was making a fortune from property taxes, stamp duty etc in the building boom. Those days are over. As Colm McCarthy the economist said, the government has not run out of compassion, it has run out of money. Our foreign debt is 3 times now what it was during the bubble, and we are still borrowing.

If I was a new teacher or a new Guard I would be very disappointed with the pay disparity, which the unions negotiated because they only cared about the people who were members at that time As someone else said they didn't care what would happen to those who were to come. Wages are low for new teachers, new Gardai etc in Dublin....if they are living in some other parts of the country its not as bad, as rents etc can be half or a third. Its not fair many retired people are getting more than some new entrants are trying to live on with young families.
The unions shafted new entrants in favour of their existing members.

evolving_doors · 10-04-2016 09:22AM

maryishere wrote: »

No, the poster said payrise and I think meant payrise. The pay was already restored from a crazy celtic tiger peak height to something slightly more sustainable some years ago.
Celtic tiger public service pay levels were only partly justified when the government was making a fortune from property taxes, stamp duty etc in the building boom. Those days are over. As Colm McCarthy the economist said, the government has not run out of compassion, it has run out of money. Our foreign debt is 3 times now what it was during the bubble, and we are still borrowing.

If I was a new teacher or a new Guard I would be very disappointed with the pay disparity, which the unions negotiated because they only cared about the people who were members at that time As someone else said they didn't care what would happen to those who were to come. Wages are low for new teachers, new Gardai etc in Dublin....if they are living in some other parts of the country its not as bad, as rents etc can be half or a third. Its not fair many retired people are getting more than some new entrants are trying to live on with young families.
The unions shafted new entrants in favour of their existing members.

so.. You'd be advocating pay restoration for new entrants, but when they reach a certain level that would be on a par with what current senior members were on pre 2008 then they'd get a pay-cut!

evolving_doors · 10-04-2016 09:31AM

Usual strawman..

Bad Teachers
new entrants
Grinds
Exam correcting

What has any of that got to do with restoring core pay (or 'pay rises' as some people call them).

Little CuChulainn · 10-04-2016 09:36AM

maudgonner wrote: »

I can assure you that I am rational and relatively sane. But you know what, I'll take your word for it if you say there was absolutely no choice but to accept the agreement. I wasn't there and didn't hear what the GRAs recommendation was.

That does not change the fact that in the pay negotiations that are sure to come about before long, there will be the option to reverse the disparity. And you've already said that you would prefer to maintain that gap and give all Gardaí a payrise instead. You don't want new Gardaí to benefit any more for a pay deal than more senior member, even though they have suffered much more from the austerity measures.

So when you post articles about new Gardaí, teachers and nurses being underpaid, you'll have to forgive me if I consider you a hypocrite.

The GRA want both parity and restoration. New members will benefit from both on a similar scale.

maryishere · 10-04-2016 10:37AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The GRA want both parity and restoration.

Everyone in the country would "want" high levels of pay, security and pension. However what can the country afford, considerings its foreign debt is now
€200,000,000,000.00 and still rising?

"Restotation" to pre celtic tiger pay levels
OR "restotation" to celtic tiger PEAK levels which were agreed by the then disastrous government on the assumption that the massive property taxes, stamp duty etc from the property boom would continue indefinitely? They did not.

evolving_doors · 10-04-2016 01:17PM

maryishere wrote: »

Everyone in the country would "want" high levels of pay, security and pension. However what can the country afford, considerings its foreign debt is now
€200,000,000,000.00 and still rising?

"Restotation" to pre celtic tiger pay levels
OR "restotation" to celtic tiger PEAK levels which were agreed by the then disastrous government on the assumption that the massive property taxes, stamp duty etc from the property boom would continue indefinitely? They did not.

Hold on there, a few posts ago you were advocating that new entrants pay cuts were unjust. So we would presume you want them restored.

Now you say they shouldn't be restored?

Which is it?

maryishere · 10-04-2016 01:42PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Hold on there, a few posts ago you were advocating that new entrants pay cuts were unjust. So we would presume you want them restored.

Now you say they shouldn't be restored?

Which is it?

As I pointed out "restored" is a loaded word. See 2 posts back.

However there should not be a huge pay difference between new entrants and others doing the same work. It would not happen in other countries or industries.

Little CuChulainn · 10-04-2016 02:28PM

maryishere wrote: »

Everyone in the country would "want" high levels of pay, security and pension. However what can the country afford, considerings its foreign debt is now
€200,000,000,000.00 and still rising?

"Restotation" to pre celtic tiger pay levels
OR "restotation" to celtic tiger PEAK levels which were agreed by the then disastrous government on the assumption that the massive property taxes, stamp duty etc from the property boom would continue indefinitely? They did not.

Restoration to before the emergency financial measures were introduced.

The_Kew_Tour · 10-04-2016 02:29PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Usual strawman..

Bad Teachers
new entrants
Grinds
Exam correcting

What has any of that got to do with restoring core pay (or 'pay rises' as some people call them).

Ya give bad teachers a great Salary.

Happens in every job

maryishere · 10-04-2016 02:52PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Restoration to before the emergency financial measures benchmarking rises (fuelled by unsustainable windfall taxes from building boom) were introduced.

Fixed that for you.

Little CuChulainn · 10-04-2016 02:53PM

maryishere wrote: »

fixed that for you.

No they are two different times.

evolving_doors · 10-04-2016 02:56PM

maryishere wrote: »

As I pointed out "restored" is a loaded word. See 2 posts back.

However there should not be a huge pay difference between new entrants and others doing the same work. It would not happen in other countries or industries.

Give us an Idea of a number so.... say for 20 years into the profession, what do you think would be a fair wage compared to a starting scale of €31000 *.

Just give us a number?

*and I'll take it you accept now that teacher's rarely if ever start on that Headline Grabbing figure i.e. they work a % of that part/time subbing.

maryishere · 10-04-2016 02:57PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

No they are two different times.

They certainly are different times. The government debt is 3 times more now. It is currently the second highest in the world per head of population. Your employer is bust.

Time pay reflected ability to pay and international comparables.

maryishere · 10-04-2016 03:10PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Give us an Idea of a number so.... say for 20 years into the profession, what do you think would be a fair wage .....

For primary school teachers with at least 15 years of experience, the OECD average is $37,603 (£23,800). Thats about €29k - €33k depending on exchange rates.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...d-country-pisa
The OECD study placed us at 17th of 24 countries for literacy, 19th out of 24 for numeracy and even worse for problem solving. However I would still argue our teachers should not get less than the average OECD pay, but tell them to get their finger out and brush up. Not of this jobs for life mentality, with bad teacher only getting the sack if they are alcoholics spending every day in the bookies.
The median wage of private sector workers in the country is 28.5k a year, without security or long long holidays or nice pension. I think teachers should be treated better than the average private sector worker though.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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