Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

The_Kew_Tour · 08-04-2016 04:14PM

esforum wrote: »

The pupils are getting an education. Something they will require if they want to function in society as adults.

They will in which the tax money the pupils parents is paying them teachers to do.

maryishere · 08-04-2016 07:42PM

esforum wrote: »

The pupils are getting an education.

?? They would want to be getting an education, as parents are paying well through their taxes for that. And as you saw from the statistics earlier, most parents do not have anything near the same average earnings or security or pensions as teachers. So it would be a sad day if the pupils were not getting an education.

Inspector Coptoor · 08-04-2016 07:54PM

maryishere wrote: »

?? They would want to be getting an education, as parents are paying well through their taxes for that. And as you saw from the statistics earlier, most parents do not have anything near the same average earnings or security or pensions as teachers. So it would be a sad day if the pupils were not getting an education.

You are such an opinionated & obtuse person.

You make me sick

evolving_doors · 08-04-2016 08:00PM

maryishere wrote: »

?? They would want to be getting an education, as parents are paying well through their taxes for that. And as you saw from the statistics earlier, most parents do not have anything near the same average earnings or security or pensions as teachers. So it would be a sad day if the pupils were not getting an education.

What's your own area of work... Qualifications...yearly pay?

esforum · 08-04-2016 08:22PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They will in which the tax money the pupils parents is paying them teachers to do.

So you now agree that its a two way system?

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

You are such an opinionated & obtuse person.

You make me sick

Dont get upset, we all realise this a long long time ago after reading the same stuff over and over by Mary.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What's your own area of work... Qualifications...yearly pay?

Wont be answered in a million years

By the way Mary, I can only see your vile hate filled rants when they are quoted, sadly theres no way to avoid that.

MIKEKC · 08-04-2016 09:11PM

discus wrote: »

I hate this argument. It suggests that everyone has a price. There are Gardai out there with integrity you know. However, I imagine like everyone, Gardai will be able to focus well on their job if they don't have financial worries in the back of their head.

There is no Garda on 23,000. Anyone entering the Gardai knows that they will have shift pay, clothing allowance, overtime etc. What counts is take home pay

selectamatic · 08-04-2016 09:18PM

maryishere wrote: »

?? They would want to be getting an education, as parents are paying well through their taxes for that. And as you saw from the statistics earlier, most parents do not have anything near the same average earnings or security or pensions as teachers. So it would be a sad day if the pupils were not getting an education.

They're getting a pretty good education to be fair Mary. Inside the Pisa top 10 for literacy levels and inside the top 20 for mathematics. Ireland is punching well above it's weight in terms of education considering we are a young country and have a low populace.
The UK have consistently scored lower than Ireland over the last number of years and their populace and education budgets dwarf Ireland's.

08-04-2016 09:53PM

MIKEKC wrote: »

There is no Garda on 23,000. Anyone entering the Gardai knows that they will have shift pay, clothing allowance, overtime etc. What counts is take home pay

While correct to a certain extent, uniform gardai get as uniform allowance of a few euro a week & a boot allowance of a few euro a week ( I haven't got it in years so honestly don't know how much it is, but I think it's less than 10 euro a week) not much.

Shift allowance is paid when you work overnight, there's about 15 or so euro for working a Saturday & more than that for working a Sunday.
If you're not working many night shifts or weekends, for whatever reason, then you don't get paid those allowances.
Overtime, unfortunately, is not a guarantee, and the fact that you have to work it to make a decent wage isn't much of an incentive, is it?

' you too could make an extra few bob, if you don't take any days off & work night & day'

New recruits are on 23 k a year, with a few bob as stated above extra. I'd be very surprised if they hit anywhere around 30k.
Bit rubbish IMO

MIKEKC · 08-04-2016 09:58PM

bubblypop wrote: »

While correct to a certain extent, uniform gardai get as uniform allowance of a few euro a week & a boot allowance of a few euro a week ( I haven't got it in years so honestly don't know how much it is, but I think it's less than 10 euro a week) not much.

Shift allowance is paid when you work overnight, there's about 15 or so euro for working a Saturday & more than that for working a Sunday.
If you're not working many night shifts or weekends, for whatever reason, then you don't get paid those allowances.
Overtime, unfortunately, is not a guarantee, and the fact that you have to work it to make a decent wage isn't much of an incentive, is it?

' you too could make an extra few bob, if you don't take any days off & work night & day'

New recruits are on 23 k a year, with a few bob as stated above extra. I'd be very surprised if they hit anywhere around 30k.
Bit rubbish IMO

Not saying that their pay is enough, just like to see all the facts explained

08-04-2016 10:03PM

MIKEKC wrote: »

Not saying that their pay is enough, just like to see all the facts explained

Oh absolutely, but it's not hidden, it's public record.
But the basic salary is 23k, that's the wage that counts for mortgage, for example.

maryishere · 08-04-2016 10:52PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Ireland is punching well above it's weight in terms of education considering we are a young country and have a low populace.

Not in every study. Far from it in some studies in fact.

According to international studies published by the OECD and by the Central Statistics Office, we are not great when it comes to adult literacy and numeracy.
Masses of data have been pulled together into a 600 page report from the OECD, while the CSO has a 150 page report focusing on the Irish figures. Combining all Irish 16 to 65-year-olds taking part in the study, the literacy results place us at below average at 17th of 24 countries. The study places Ireland at 19th out of 24 for numeracy.
Quote"The OECD has for the first time included a special category meant to assess skills related to the use of new technology, described as: “problem solving in a technology-rich environment”.
Only 20 countries participated in this part of the study including Ireland.
The results showed that 10 per cent of people here did not take part saying they had no computer experience.
Another 17.7 per cent of people started but then opted out of this study, higher than the average for all countries which stood at 9.9 per cent.
More than 40 per cent of Irish adults scored at or below the lowest level for problem solving, close to the average for all countries.
About 25 per cent of adults were at levels two and three, far behind the average of 34 per cent."
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-adults-at-or-below-average-for-literacy-and-numeracy-1.1553861

When it comes to universities, the UK has something like 33 in the top 200, while we only have 1 which scrapes in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9584034/Top-200-world-universities-THE-rankings.html

selectamatic wrote: »

The UK have ..... and their populace and education budgets dwarf Ireland's.

The UK has 5.63% of their GDP as public spending on education.
Ireland has 6.5% of our GDP as public spending on education.
Not surprising when we / the taxpayer pay our teachers more
.
Quote: "If you exclude the huge teacher's salaries in (very expensive) Luxembourg, then Germany has the highest across the OECD, followed by Canada and Ireland. The US is high up the list too, but teacher salaries have only ncreased by 3.1% since 2000, less than inflation.
In the UK, for primary school teachers with at least 15 years of experience, salaries average $44,145 (£28,000), above the OECD average of $37,603 (£23,800)."
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/sep/11/education-compared-oecd-country-pisa

esforum · 08-04-2016 11:06PM

MIKEKC wrote: »

There is no Garda on 23,000. Anyone entering the Gardai knows that they will have shift pay, clothing allowance, overtime etc. What counts is take home pay

this has been stated a dozen times now in this thread and the subject is the basic pay. the allowances wont even get you to 30k a year

The_Kew_Tour · 08-04-2016 11:10PM

esforum wrote: »

So you now agree that its a two way system?
.

That had nothing to do with the 2 way system that I was referring to.

esforum · 08-04-2016 11:20PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

That had nothing to do with the 2 way system that I was referring to.

so explain, another user said education is a two way street, you replied that it wasnt because only the teachers get paid and I pointed out that the pupils get an education. you give, you get, thats a two way street

08-04-2016 11:33PM

Mary is here.
I think it's about time you posted your issues on here with public service pay.
You have a major problem with pay & pensions.

So what do you do, and how much do you get paid & what exactly is your problem with the public service?

It's a matter of public record the wages in the public sector.
So maybe it's time you made your real feelings known?
Do you think the public sector is over paid? In particular the front line staff? Nurses, gardai, teachers, paramedics etc

Can you just, for once state your exact issue with each of these professions wages?
Without linking to some bull**** else, EEC, oecd or whatever other acronyms you have!

Tell us your feelings

08-04-2016 11:54PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary is here.
I think it's about time you posted your issues on here with public service pay.
You have a major problem with pay & pensions.

So what do you do, and how much do you get paid & what exactly is your problem with the public service?

It's a matter of public record the wages in the public sector.
So maybe it's time you made your real feelings known?
Do you think the public sector is over paid? In particular the front line staff? Nurses, gardai, teachers, paramedics etc

Can you just, for once state your exact issue with each of these professions wages?
Without linking to some bull**** else, EEC, oecd or whatever other acronyms you have!

Tell us your feelings

Yeah! Get out of here with your "facts"!

09-04-2016 12:03AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Yeah! Get out of here with your "facts"!

I think you should read Mary's ' facts'
Just because she said it, doesn't make it so!

selectamatic · 09-04-2016 12:04AM

@Maryishere
You have focused on an oecd study relating to adults where as I have focused on an oecd study relating to children. My study relates to the future of Ireland and the younger generations in the workforce today yet your study relates to the past as many of its participants left education over 20 years ago or more. Many of Ireland's adults grew up with an education system which consisted of the christian brothers and nuns. Now that we have a proper education system our pupils are beginning to come into their own,go back 20 years ago and the school dropout level at 16 was much higher than today and low skilled jobs were the norm for many many people. Now a days as Ireland has increased its spending on education things have improved immensely resources are much better, teachers are better trained and teaching methods are much more geared towards holistic teaching rather than the totalitarian authoritative methods of the past. You equate Irelands spending on education as vast sums of money going straight into teachers pockets yet ignore the simply staggering sums of money spent on educational infrastructure and resources (money which is well spent).

In The uk they are crying out for teachers as they are simply underpaid therefore the job is unattractive. Also many uk teachers haven't got qualifications or training levels comparable to other countries. You don't see many countries allowing people with just a bachelor of arts degree teach in primary schools however this happens in the uk. Irish teachers are recruited ahead of their uk counterparts in the uk itself as they are simply better qualified and better trained a phenomenon which has come about in the last 10-15 years as Ireland increased its educational spending and as a result raised the bar for Irish education as a whole. Teachers start off on 33k a year here for pre 2011 they also get an extra 5k if they have a masters however this is now an unavailable option. Post 2011 start on 31k that 2k difference is unfair and that's the only issue I have with teacher pay in Ireland. Doctors start off on too low of a wage, so too do nurses and guards they all deserve a pay rise and teachers deserve the abolition of the daft discrepancies in pay scale but some anti public sector neigh sayers would begrudge anything positive to the leaches that are public sector workers :P .

To say teachers don't deserve their pay is pretty naive we are integral to society and highly educated people 500 points is hard got in the leaving cert. If you want a society in which teachers are underpaid then just look across the Irish sea at our neighbors where primary teaching is seen as an unattractive job therefore the "best" candidates will look else where for employment. Look at their performances in child based education studies the underpaying of teachers has inadvertently become one of the causes of a decline in the quality of child related education something which thankfully isn't the case in Ireland.

09-04-2016 12:08AM

Maryishere
Doesnt care

maryishere · 09-04-2016 12:18AM

selectamatic wrote: »

@Maryishere
You have focused on an oecd study relating to adults where as I have focused on an oecd study relating to children. My study relates to the future of Ireland and the younger generations in the workforce today yet your study relates to the past as many of its participants left education over 20 years ago or more. Many of Ireland's adults grew up with an education system which consisted of the christian brothers and nuns. Now that we have a proper education system our pupils are beginning to come into their own,go back 20 years ago and the school dropout level at 16 was much higher than today and low skilled jobs were the norm for many many people. Now a days as Ireland has increased its spending on education things have improved immensely resources are much better, teachers are better trained and teaching methods are much more geared towards holistic teaching rather than the totalitarian authoritative methods of the past. You equate Irelands spending on education as vast sums of money going straight into teachers pockets yet ignore the simply staggering sums of money spent on educational infrastructure and resources (money which is well spent).

In The uk they are crying out for teachers as they are simply underpaid therefore the job is unattractive. Also many uk teachers haven't got qualifications or training levels comparable to other countries. You don't see many countries allowing people with just a bachelor of arts degree teach in primary schools however this happens in the uk. Irish teachers are recruited ahead of their uk counterparts in the uk itself as they are simply better qualified and better trained a phenomenon which has come about in the last 10-15 years as Ireland increased its educational spending and as a result raised the bar for Irish education as a whole. Teachers start off on 33k a year here for pre 2011 they also get an extra 5k if they have a masters however this is now an unavailable option. Post 2011 start on 31k that 2k difference is unfair and that's the only issue I have with teacher pay in Ireland. Doctors start off on too low of a wage, so too do nurses and guards they all deserve a pay rise and teachers deserve the abolition of the daft discrepancies in pay scale but some anti public sector neigh sayers would begrudge anything positive to the leaches that are public sector workers :P .

To say teachers don't deserve their pay is pretty naive we are integral to society and highly educated people 500 points is hard got in the leaving cert. If you want a society in which teachers are underpaid then just look across the Irish sea at our neighbors where primary teaching is seen as an unattractive job therefore the "best" candidates will look else where for employment. Look at their performances in child based education studies the underpaying of teachers has inadvertently become one of the causes of a decline in the quality of child related education something which thankfully isn't the case in Ireland.

And your point is? And can you back it up with links or statistics? Your rant above does you no favours. The OECD study placed us at 17th of 24 countries for literacy, 19th out of 24 for numeracy and even worse for problem solving. And we cannot blame our low results on what we pay our teachers:for primary school teachers with at least 15 years of experience, the OECD average is $37,603 (£23,800).
http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...d-country-pisa

What do you blame the poor performance of our universities on? The UK has something like 33 in the top 200, while we only have 1 which scrapes in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...-rankings.html

selectamatic · 09-04-2016 12:48AM

maryishere wrote: »

And your point is? And can you back it up with links or statistics? Your rant above does you no favours. The OECD study placed us at 17th of 24 countries for literacy, 19th out of 24 for numeracy and even worse for problem solving. And we cannot blame our low results on what we pay our teachers:for primary school teachers with at least 15 years of experience, the OECD average is $37,603 (£23,800).
http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...d-country-pisa

What do you blame the poor performance of our universities on? The UK has something like 33 in the top 200, while we only have 1 which scrapes in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...-rankings.html

These are the 2015 results I have referenced
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26249042 The most recent results from 2015

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ireland-ranks-15th-in-global-league-table-for-maths-science-1.2211078 Good results however 15% under performing in basic skills something which many countries outside of asia seem to be struggling with but Ireland are certainly ahead of the uk.

Universities have been around for far far longer in the uk, Therfore they have a history and prestige that attracts the best of the best when it comes to international students. Oxford university and cambridge are world renowned much like the uni powerhouses in america Harvard, yale etc. Most of Ireland's universities are still babies compared to these. This would be the main reason I would put forward.
Anyways that's the end of my contribution to this thread I'm a public sector worker and I would like to see conditions improved in the public sector you are not and therefore don't care about these issues so we are now at a classic us vs them situation, a situation which will never be resolved, at least not on boards anyways.

esforum · 09-04-2016 12:54AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary is here.
I think it's about time you posted your issues on here with public service pay.
You have a major problem with pay & pensions.

So what do you do, and how much do you get paid & what exactly is your problem with the public service?

It's a matter of public record the wages in the public sector.
So maybe it's time you made your real feelings known?
Do you think the public sector is over paid? In particular the front line staff? Nurses, gardai, teachers, paramedics etc

Can you just, for once state your exact issue with each of these professions wages?
Without linking to some bull**** else, EEC, oecd or whatever other acronyms you have!

Tell us your feelings

I would suggest its pretty obvious, Mary like most people similar to her have a problem with 'inferior' service workers earning more than the 'educated' people. Its based on low self esteem or a sense of superiority and results in the same logic and blind hatred that is being witnessed in this thread. To have their views shown to be incorrect leaves no direction for the anger so instead of having a good hard luck in the mirror they simple default back again.

The_Kew_Tour · 09-04-2016 08:22AM

esforum wrote: »

so explain, another user said education is a two way street, you replied that it wasnt because only the teachers get paid and I pointed out that the pupils get an education. you give, you get, thats a two way street

Yes but it's up to teacher to provide a good education not the student

Inspector Coptoor · 09-04-2016 09:16AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yes but it's up to teacher to provide a good education not the student

That's a cop out.

If a kid doesn't care & doesn't want to learn, it doesn't matter how good a teacher is

esforum · 09-04-2016 10:56AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yes but it's up to teacher to provide a good education not the student

you are doing some serious dodging here, can you not just admit you were wrong? It was a minor comment, no one will think ill of you.

In relation to this debate, while I have to admit to getting a little bored with the news reports and the constant stream is mis-information being peddled, I found this article very interesting and informative:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/nurses-teachers-garda%C3%AD-who-feel-undervalued-and-underpaid-1.2603483

I would urge people to have a read and keep an open mind.

maudgonner · 09-04-2016 11:57AM

esforum wrote: »

you are doing some serious dodging here, can you not just admit you were wrong? It was a minor comment, no one will think ill of you.

In relation to this debate, while I have to admit to getting a little bored with the news reports and the constant stream is mis-information being peddled, I found this article very interesting and informative:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/nurses-teachers-garda%C3%AD-who-feel-undervalued-and-underpaid-1.2603483

I would urge people to have a read and keep an open mind.

I think you're the one who is dodging the issue on this thread esforum. Posters on here have by and large agreed that the conditions forced on new entrants are unfair.

But it was the more senior members of the profession who did the deals that maintained their own position at the expense of the new entrants.
So why is there no pressure in them to put the situation right, instead of demanding that the taxpayer foots the bill?

I doubt there would be any public opposition to a solution that gave new entrants a fairer salary, if the books were balanced internally.

Paulzx · 09-04-2016 12:04PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

That's a cop out.

If a kid doesn't care & doesn't want to learn, it doesn't matter how good a teacher is

I would also contend that the same applies if the parents of the child don't care either

09-04-2016 12:07PM

Yea I have to say I agree with Maud, I don't ever remember voting for anything that was going to reduce new employees salaries. It must have been agreed at some of nthose Haddington road deals was it?

It would be very interesting to see, if it came down to a pay restoration vs pay parity, how existing employees would vote.

esforum · 09-04-2016 12:14PM

maudgonner wrote: »

I think you're the one who is dodging the issue on this thread esforum. Posters on here have by and large agreed that the conditions forced on new entrants are unfair.

But it was the more senior members of the profession who did the deals that maintained their own position at the expense of the new entrants.
So why is there no pressure in them to put the situation right, instead of demanding that the taxpayer foots the bill?

I doubt there would be any public opposition to a solution that gave new entrants a fairer salary, if the books were balanced internally.

What a pile of ****e.

Please, please quote where I denied or even commented on new V old wage differences?

Please also do tell how Gardai sold out new entries by union negotiations on wages. Please, I am all ears for this one

Posters have by and large agreed the wages are unfair? What thread are you reading? Most comments have been ignorant rants filled with myths.

Taxpayer foots the bill, oh please, go back to sleep, its gotten old now

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea I have to say I agree with Maud, I don't ever remember voting for anything that was going to reduce new employees salaries. It must have been agreed at some of nthose Haddington road deals was it?

It would be very interesting to see, if it came down to a pay restoration vs pay parity, how existing employees would vote.

I am assuming my sarcasm radar is needed here? Personally I think restoration would be favoured, it would I presume include new entrants anyway as the base pay would go up and increments reinstalled.

maudgonner · 09-04-2016 01:02PM

esforum wrote: »

What a pile of ****e.

Please, please quote where I denied or even commented on new V old wage differences?

Please also do tell how Gardai sold out new entries by union negotiations on wages. Please, I am all ears for this one

Posters have by and large agreed the wages are unfair? What thread are you reading? Most comments have been ignorant rants filled with myths.

Taxpayer foots the bill, oh please, go back to sleep, its gotten old now

As far as I'm aware (and from what the IMPACT website tells me), the 10% reduction in salary for new entrants was put in place as part of the Croke Park agreement in 2011, which the public sector unions and garda representative bodies were very much part of. And there has been no move by the unions to force their removal in any of the negotiations since then, it would seem.

And what I said was that by and large posters on this thread have acknowledged that the conditions forced on new entrants - i.e. the disparity in salaries vs pre-2011 entrants - is unfair. That's certainly been my impression of posters' opinion on that matter in this thread.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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