Why we worry more about water charges than USC?

Permabear · 07-04-2016 04:38PM

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Anita Blow · 07-04-2016 04:57PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Looks like we are stuck with the USC now seeing as idiots were saying during the election that it shouldn't be reduced at all.

I'd argue they were realists, not idiots. It's absolutely clear by the state of our health service, school class sizes, cuts to the Gardai over the past couple of years that we can barely fund our public expenditure as it stands, let alone after we slash revenue by 4 billion

Jack Killian · 07-04-2016 06:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As stated already, income taxes are only a small part of the story.

How do the indirect and stealth taxes compare ?

And more importantly, how do the services available in return stack up ?

questionmark? · 07-04-2016 06:30PM

Speedwell wrote: »

I am happy to pay my share to make sure everyone gets essential human necessities like water, ffs. But charging people for water if it means they have to cut other necessities out of their lives to pay for it, that's just wrong.

Can't someone else pay for it! Someone else someone else!

Speedwell · 07-04-2016 06:44PM

questionmark? wrote: »

Can't someone else pay for it! Someone else someone else!

You mean like me, paying my share, some of which goes to providing essential services to the needy? I'd rather pay more when I can afford it than force someone else who can't afford it to pay.

micks_address · 07-04-2016 06:50PM

I think fine gael did promise to scrap USC?

What I find funny is fine fail saying water charges are a red line issue... When they were the party in government signed up to the troika that we'd have them..

questionmark? · 07-04-2016 06:53PM

Speedwell wrote: »

You mean like me, paying my share, some of which goes to providing essential services to the needy? I'd rather pay more when I can afford it than force someone else who can't afford it to pay.

The vast majority of the country can afford the €160, split that into 52 weekly payments by standing order, for an essential service. There is far too many people paying nothing towards the running of society. I'm happy for my share to go to those that need actual help and also for running crucial public services for everyones benefit.

gti16v · 07-04-2016 07:12PM

Just to be clear before anyone gets annoyed that I'm a FF supporter. I'm not an FF supporter by any means as a boom time property buyer they have done nothing but take money out of my pocket during a very difficult time.

FF signed up to water charges as EU legislation states the government have to introduce a policy to ensure ever person in the country is encouraged to save water.

People are very wasteful of this service and unless water is turned off during certain hours people will water it. In addition to this its a huge drain on the taxpayer.

I don't see the issue with water charges at all, it's €160, my major problem is USC. I pay all my taxes and have had to pay for water for the last 10 years as I have a well which is a complete nightmare. The work involved in looking after it is ridiculous between changing filters, treating the water with chemicals and salt. On top of all that every time I turn on the tap it means that a water pump is running which isn't easy on the electricity bill. I also have to run heaters in the shed during the winter to stop the pump from bursting in cold weather.

All this has made me appreciate what I had when I had mains water.

I would gladly pay the €160 if I had water

Ray Palmer · 07-04-2016 07:27PM

questionmark? wrote: »

The vast majority of the country can afford the €160, split that into 52 weekly payments by standing order, for an essential service. There is far too many people paying nothing towards the running of society. I'm happy for my share to go to those that need actual help and also for running crucial public services for everyones benefit.

I would be happy to be paying extra for people who really need it too. That is why there is an allowance for people and social welfare payments.

The point is the whole purpose of the charges is to reduce use and waste. If you give people it free there is no incentive to use less.

To give you the mentality of some people I'll tell you about my neighbour. When we bought our 1st house it was an ex-corpo house and our neighbour was the grand daughter of the original tenant. She got the house by inheritance and would regularly complain the council didn't fix the house anymore.
Anyway you could see they had their green and brown bin in the back garden. We kept ours out front so we didn't need to bring them through the house an thought it weird they did. We soon realised they didn't use them. At the time their was no charge by lift or weight. The minute the charges for lift and weight came in the suddenly starting using them. When he was putting then green bin out one day and i was out the front he goes on about how the b**tards are making him do this and he has better thinks to do than sort out rubbish. He was and is unemployed.
So I was putting in a water butt on the house and the neighbours pops his head over the back wall and asks what I am doing. I explain how I am collecting the water off the roof to use in the garden. Starts going on about how I a mad hippy wasting my time and it is free. No explanation of conservation would change his mind. The only thing that will change how he behaves is if he is charged

FalconGirl · 07-04-2016 07:45PM

Look how IW was incorporated and the dodgy tendering process. That's not how business should be done and even moreso with Goverment involvement. Phil Hogans Dept of Environment couldn't even provide any minutes to meetings! It should be 100% transparent to the public after all it is our money. It was not transparent and the taxpayer is certainly not getting value.

That's where my opposition arises. Anyone who tars all water protesters as uneducated wasters in an absolute fool.

Permabear · 07-04-2016 07:54PM

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howdoyouknow · 07-04-2016 07:55PM

Probably the fact that we are already paying for it.

howdoyouknow · 07-04-2016 08:02PM

gti16v wrote:

I don't see the issue with water charges at all, it's â‚¬160, my major problem is USC. I pay all my taxes and have had to pay for water for the last 10 years as I have a well which is a complete nightmare. The work involved in looking after it is ridiculous between changing filters, treating the water with chemicals and salt. On top of all that every time I turn on the tap it means that a water pump is running which isn't easy on the electricity bill. I also have to run heaters in the shed during the winter to stop the pump from bursting in cold weather.

gti16v wrote:

I would gladly pay the â‚¬160 if I had water

It's only â‚¬160 at present if Irish water goes ahead as planned you'll be lucky to be paying less than 4 times that per year

Hercule Poirot · 07-04-2016 08:07PM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, no doubt, Nordic taxes are way higher than here.

US taxes are lower than here.

No VAT in USA, low-ish sales taxes, high local property taxes, low income taxes.

Nordic taxes are higher but they get so much more in return. Was talking about this recently with some guys from Denmark and they were saying that all college goers get a weekly subsidy (like a wage - not means tested), across the board and their health system is pretty much free.

So there is an upside to it - they were more than happy with what they got in return for their high taxes.

listermint · 07-04-2016 08:09PM

howdoyouknow wrote: »

It's only â‚¬160 at present if Irish water goes ahead as planned you'll be lucky to be paying less than 4 times that per year

This in a nutshell, those 'plums' that think 160-260 is nothing in comparison will be delighted im sure when their yearly bill is 800 - 1000 Euro per year for water on top of paying for everything else they work hard for.

Let the celebrations begin when that sinks in.

Some folks refuse to see the forest for the trees.

But yeah.... 160 Euro that'll keep the billing agency IW going.

LOL

smash · 07-04-2016 08:12PM

howdoyouknow wrote: »

It's only â‚¬160 at present if Irish water goes ahead as planned you'll be lucky to be paying less than 4 times that per year

In a few years people will be paying around €350 month to cover electricity, gas or oil, water and propert tax.

listermint · 07-04-2016 08:16PM

smash wrote: »

In a few years people will be paying around €350 month to cover electricity, gas or oil, water and property tax.

At least, sure we have the highest electricity prices in Europe we celebrate the Arse off the ESB success story here in this country whilst we pay huge amounts for electricity and the regulator never says no to an increase.

Gotz to pay for the ESB Union dont ya know.

Up next we now have health increases across the board for private health insurance and vradkar still talking about private hospitals taking up all the slack.

We are forever getting less and less as each year goes by and paying more.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 07-04-2016 08:21PM

Because people who shout the loudest generally have the most time on their hands. In order to pay USC you have to go to work. This means you have less time to March, protest or set up anti government rallies. This means you're used to being rode so you take it.

With the water charges people who are exempt from any personal responsibility it seems have plenty of time to demand their rights.

buried · 07-04-2016 08:33PM

I've being paying for water in my local group scheme for over 20 years but the reason I worry about the corporate entity known as "Irish Water" is because it could begin the disaster approach to privatise one of the last resources we have. Water is being privatised all over the planet because global corporations know H2O's current and future value, especially to countries where water droughts are becoming more commonplace and extreme. Give us a referendum that states our water and also our farmland will never be given over to any corporate or government entity outside our own island, unlike our gas resources which were given away for a bag of magic beans to the Shell corporation.

For Forks Sake · 07-04-2016 08:37PM

howdoyouknow wrote: »

Probably the fact that we are already paying for it.

Nein.

Go again.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2015/03/paying-twice-for-water-not-really.html?m=1

darkpagandeath · 07-04-2016 08:41PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Nein.

Go again.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2015/03/paying-twice-for-water-not-really.html?m=1

What has paying twice and already paying got to do with each other ?

howdoyouknow · 07-04-2016 09:18PM

listermint wrote:

At least, sure we have the highest electricity prices in Europe we celebrate the Arse off the ESB success story here in this country whilst we pay huge amounts for electricity and the regulator never says no to an increase.

listermint wrote:

Gotz to pay for the ESB Union dont ya know.

We had the cheapest electricity prices in Europe 14 years ago. But similar to the water situation the esb a state company was made into a semi state company with private interests. It was divided up into 3 different companies. At the time we were told this was done as the esb had a monopoly on electricity and that competition from other European companies would mean more options and lower prices in the long run.

Very few complained about this at the time as it all happened during the tiger years when everyone was to busy being rich to care.

Tasden · 07-04-2016 09:32PM

FalconGirl wrote: »

Look how IW was incorporated and the dodgy tendering process. That's not how business should be done and even moreso with Goverment involvement. Phil Hogans Dept of Environment couldn't even provide any minutes to meetings! It should be 100% transparent to the public after all it is our money. It was not transparent and the taxpayer is certainly not getting value.

That's where my opposition arises. Anyone who tars all water protesters as uneducated wasters in an absolute fool.

In fairness there is a difference between opposing "Irish Water" and opposing water charges. Most protesters (that i know anyway) are giving out about paying for water. Not their money going to irish water or the issues with Irish Water. Not to say that either are wasters or uneducated. But it pisses me off that so many people are shouting loud about the charge itself because the real issues you mentioned aren't being highlighted at all.

howdoyouknow · 07-04-2016 09:42PM

Tasden wrote:

In fairness there is a difference between opposing "Irish Water" and opposing water charges. Most protesters (that i know anyway) are giving out about paying for water. Not their money going to irish water or the issues with Irish Water. Not to say that either are wasters or uneducated. But it pisses me off that so many people are shouting loud about the charge itself because the real issues you mentioned aren't being highlighted at all.

I think this is where a large chunk of anti water people are at. Anti privatisation and calling for an overhaul of the taxation system

buried · 07-04-2016 09:45PM

Tasden wrote: »

In fairness there is a difference between opposing "Irish Water" and opposing water charges. Most protesters (that i know anyway) are giving out about paying for water. Not their money going to irish water or the issues with Irish Water. Not to say that either are wasters or uneducated. But it pisses me off that so many people are shouting loud about the charge itself because the real issues you mentioned aren't being highlighted at all.

But that's how the establishment do it. The real issues concerning our Gas resources weren't highlighted either. The mainstream media and our state broadcaster made the gas giveaway to the Shell corporation all about 'jobs vs loud hippies'.
The same thing is being done with our water, its being shown by these same media outlets as 'Irish water vs the loud tracksuit people'.
The actual story of the threat of privatisation for one of our last resources doesn't figure into their agenda. But at the same time all the people on my water group scheme are against 'Irish water' because of this very real privatisation threat and some of the people on my water scheme have been paying for water for 30 years. RTE won't highlight the corporate privatisation threat at all. Same as they never highlighted the corporate takeover of our gas. People here have copped onto it.

Tasden · 07-04-2016 10:02PM

buried wrote: »

But that's how the establishment do it. The real issues concerning our Gas resources weren't highlighted either. The mainstream media and our state broadcaster made the gas giveaway to the Shell corporation all about 'jobs vs loud hippies'.
The same thing is being done with our water, its being shown by these same media outlets as 'Irish water vs the loud tracksuit people'.
The actual story of the threat of privatisation for one of our last resources doesn't figure into their agenda. But at the same time all the people on my water group scheme are against 'Irish water' because of this very real privatisation threat and some of the people on my water scheme have been paying for water for 30 years. RTE won't highlight the corporate privatisation threat at all. Same as they never highlighted the corporate takeover of our gas. People here have copped onto it.

Ah you can't blame RTE for it.
In my own experience, 99% of the people I know that are vocal about being anti water charges- whether it be on social media, attending protests, talking at the school line- it's a case of "why should I pay for water?". No mention of privatisation/ irish water. And it is mainly people on the dole who don't pay the full cost of their rent never mind water. And I'm saying that as someone who has been on the dole in the past myself and who is against irish water but not water charges.

buried · 07-04-2016 10:13PM

Tasden wrote: »

Ah you can't blame RTE for it.
In my own experience, 99% of the people I know that are vocal about being anti water charges- whether it be on social media, attending protests, talking at the school line- it's a case of "why should I pay for water?". No mention of privatisation/ irish water. And it is mainly people on the dole who don't pay the full cost of their rent never mind water. And I'm saying that as someone who has been on the dole in the past myself and who is against irish water but not water charges.

You can certainly blame RTE in its failings of highlighting the gas giveaway to the Shell corporation. I vividly remember John Bowman when he presented 'Questions & Answers' literally ignoring and shouting down points made by some audience members concerning the giveaway of our gas resources. The same thing is being done with our water. Its not shown as a resource privatisation giveaway but a 'divide & conquer' scenario where one group of our society is battling another group, not what's actually happening with Dinny O'Brien's takeover.
I agree with you, ignore all that social media TV noise concerning our water resourse, and start asking questions to your local elected representative about the privatisation threat to it.

imme · 07-04-2016 10:14PM

Do people who get water bills and bitch about them pay USC?

Is that the difference?

Tasden · 07-04-2016 10:18PM

buried wrote: »

You can certainly blame RTE in its failings of highlighting the gas giveaway to the Shell corporation. I vividly remember John Bowman when he presented 'Questions & Answers' literally ignoring and shouting down points made by some audience members concerning the giveaway of our gas resources. The same thing is being done with our water. Its not shown as a resource privatisation giveaway but a 'divide & conquer' scenario where one group of our society is battling another group, not whats actually happening with Dinny O'Brien's takeover.
I agree with you, ignore all that social media TV noise concerning our water resourse, and start asking questions to your local elected representative about the privatisation threat to it

We'll agree to disagree with rte and irish water, i don't think rte is to blame, that's not me denying its many failings though. I cant comment on shell myself.

FixdePitchmark · 07-04-2016 10:19PM

Because - anti water crowd are idiots.

Why we worry more about water charges than USC?

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