Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

KatW4 · 06-04-2016 10:12PM

Geuze wrote:

In return for 60k, we should be demanding of our teachers, I would: increase the school yearmove PT meetings outside class timemove training into June / July So pay them well, but expect high productivity and accountability.

Increasing the school year would be fine. I worked in London and we had school until the end of July. It didn't bother me but the children were exhausted.

I already do my parent teacher meetings outside of school time.

Teachers train during the summer. They complete lots of courses during the summer and they are also in school setting up their classrooms, getting the books, copies and resources ready and planning.

Little CuChulainn · 06-04-2016 10:12PM

Geuze wrote: »

In return for 60k, we should be demanding of our teachers, I would:
increase the school year

move PT meetings outside class time

move training into June / July

So pay them well, but expect high productivity and accountability.

And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life.

How would you address the gap left by teachers taking their statutory holidays throughout the school year instead of during the Summer when all the kids are off? I presume by moving PT meetings outside the regular working week (a bit petty imho) ou have some plan to compensate them for the over time worked. Also, you are no longer giving teachers any kind of credit for working on class material and prep outside school hours, how to you propose to compensate this or work it into their regular week without affecting their time for student interaction?

maryishere · 06-04-2016 10:13PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Everything you said there is happening more or less already to some extent including your final point.

Have any poor teachers been let go yet.
Have not heard the unions whinge about that;)

Little CuChulainn · 06-04-2016 10:26PM

maryishere wrote: »

Have any poor teachers been let go yet.
Have not heard the unions whinge about that;)

Yes. I personally know two that could only get work on a one year contract during the height of the recession.

evolving_doors · 06-04-2016 10:26PM

maryishere wrote: »

Have any poor teachers been let go yet.
Have not heard the unions whinge about that;)

What's that got to do with Pay?

Hold on... are you proposing significantly better pay for achieving 'better performance' targets?

like pay related performance! I know the public really lapped that up when Irish Water workers tried it out!

Is that what your suggesting... pay related performance? (This thread is about pay after all isn't it!)

maryishere · 06-04-2016 10:42PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What's that got to do with Pay?

I was responding to Mardy Bum who said it was happening ( "And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life." )

I am not aware of many or any poor teachers (who tend to be permanent) let go. Mardy Bum said it was happening.

Mardy Bum · 06-04-2016 11:20PM

maryishere wrote: »

I was responding to Mardy Bum who said it was happening ( "And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life." )

I am not aware of many or any poor teachers (who tend to be permanent) let go. Mardy Bum said it was happening.

I am gpbsmacked you don't know. Your posts demonstrate a level of knowledge so vast and intricate I was of the belief you knew every little detail. It was not publicised unless there was an appeal in the past.

Now there are public fitness to teach hearings.

Keep going Mary. Fight the good fight against the elites.

DK man · 06-04-2016 11:26PM

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

Nurses do very well getting paid during their training when on the wards. Trainee teachers go into schools and teach for two years and pay over 6k for the privilege of working for free..

maryishere · 06-04-2016 11:27PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I am gpbsmacked you don't know.

Six ****** teachers! let go out of 60,000 plus in the country.

And it does not say what they were let go for. Was it non-attendance or smoking weed in class or what?

I am talking about the poor teahers who have no interest in teaching. Most people came across one or two of them. When are they going to be let go?

Mardy Bum · 06-04-2016 11:41PM

maryishere wrote: »

Six ****** teachers! let go out of 60,000 plus in the country.

And it does not say what they were let go for. Was it non-attendance or smoking weed in class or what?

I am talking about the poor teahers who have no interest in teaching. Most people came across one or two of them. When are they going to be let go?

Keep fighting the good fight Mary. Down with teachers. Sack them all. I know you won't be happy until you see someone sacked so you should report someone (you can) and then attend the public hearing.

After that try and get those waster nurses and Gardai eating doughnuts up in court for not fulfilling their duties.

After that move on to the cleaners and admin workers in all the public sector. If you set up cameras you will get evidence too I'd say.

Damn public sector workers doing their job and getting paid. It makes my blood boil thinking about it.

maryishere · 06-04-2016 11:48PM

I must have hit a sore point with you when you resort to incredibly poor sarcasm like that. Did some of your pupils parents complain about you?

esforum · 06-04-2016 11:59PM

DK man wrote: »

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

Nurses do very well getting paid during their training when on the wards. Trainee teachers go into schools and teach for two years and pay over 6k for the privilege of working for free..

mainly misrepresented by your mate, it aint 35%

nurses are on **** all during their ward time and why shouldnt they get paid?

then the teachers should via their unions, take action to correct this injustice

discus · 07-04-2016 12:01AM

DK man wrote: »

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

What's annoying about this post is that you didn't even try confirm it with a quick google.

maryishere · 07-04-2016 12:10AM

Starting pay is almost €32,000 for a trainee PSNI officer....they could always apply for that job instead. Doubt many would want to.

evolving_doors · 07-04-2016 12:14AM

maryishere wrote: »

I must have hit a sore point with you when you resort to incredibly poor sarcasm like that. Did some of your pupils parents complain about you?

I think you find the fact that teachers actually get paid anything at all in this country a sore point.

What do you propose they should be paid?

Maybe if we explore it from the bottom up:

How much would you pay a babysitter to look after a young teenager for an hour (I'm not talking about a relative, I'd be talking about an adult who would charge a fee and put it through the books (like on mindme.ie))?
Now how much would that be for 22hrs a week.
Now upscale that to 30 teenagers at a go.
And while you're at it throw in some education. (Seeing as how they've spent 5-6 years in college for something or other).
And then the planning of classes/exam grading/meetings with other teachers/extra curricular/CPD... which doesn't take place during your 22hr contact time every week.

maryishere wrote: »

In fairness the report also says: "For a second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €`10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland."

I dunno Mary, If you begrudge any professional a salary of under 60k after 30 or more years then I think it's becoming more obvious that your teacher-ire isn't really about pay at all! Don't forget Principals/Vice Principals/Assistant Principals are all counted as teachers too so you have to factor in management wages into that average also. But of course, by your own reckoning that should be done for free too.

maryishere · 07-04-2016 12:22AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think you find the fact that teachers actually get paid anything at all in this country a sore point.

You think wrong, so its not even woth reading your next few sentences.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I dunno Mary, If you begrudge any professional a salary of under 60k after 30 or more years then I think it's becoming more obvious that your teacher-ire isn't really about pay at all!

You are right, its about the €30,000 annual pension and the tax free gratuity of €90,000 they get when they retire.;)

Some teachers deserve it: I know other teachers who never taught but still worked as teachers, still got paid and still retired. One used to write books while the class worked or amused themselves.

I know lots of people with third level qualifications, in stressful jobs, who get much less pay that teachers, and who do not have the security, pension or holidays. Do you think they should be as well paid as teachers?

I think the fact I showed you proof that many teachers are paid 10,000 more than the OECD average has annoyed you.

( "For a second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €`10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-34228771.html )

thomasdylan · 07-04-2016 12:26AM

DK man wrote: »

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

Nurses do very well getting paid during their training when on the wards. Trainee teachers go into schools and teach for two years and pay over 6k for the privilege of working for free..

As far as I know student nurses only get paid in their final year and it;s well less than minimum wage for a 36 hour week. And they start on 23k which is crazy really.

evolving_doors · 07-04-2016 12:44AM

maryishere wrote: »

You think wrong, so its not even woth reading your next few sentences.

So put a value on it then?

maryishere wrote: »

You are right, its about the €30,000 annual pension and the tax free gratuity of €90,000 they get when they retire.;)

Is that before or after the pension arrangements changed to career average?

maryishere wrote: »

I know lots of people with third level qualifications, in stressful jobs, who get much less pay that teachers, and who do not have the security, pension or holidays. Do you think they should be as well paid as teachers?

Ah now, so by that logic because A gets less than B, therefore B should have their wages cut?
I don't know if they should be paid as well as teachers because I don't know what profession you are referring to? Are you referring to a profession?

maryishere wrote: »

I think the fact I showed you proof that many teachers are paid 10,000 more than the OECD average has annoyed you.

No, because I know the difference between an apple and an orange.

maryishere wrote: »

( "For a second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €`10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-34228771.html )

So what, wages are different around the world, that's hardly an economic revelation. What is important is the cost of living. Are you suggesting that the cost of living is the same in all of these OECD countries. Could you pick some of those countries around the €49,896 figure and compare the cost of living with Ireland?

What's your own area of employment btw
What's your education qualifications too.
Starting salary
Expected final salary on retirement.
(In general terms/ballpark figures )

If we are going to compare apples with apples, then it might be beneficial if you could justify your income based on my knowledge of the work you do too?

Geuze · 07-04-2016 01:14AM

maryishere wrote: »

Have you a source for that? Many things in Ireland are quite cheap in real terms...Penneys is cheaper for clothes than most shops in Europe, housing in half of Ireland is very cheap ( you can buy new apartments in some counties for 40k ) , council charges are less...

Maryishere,

Here is data on the price level in Ireland:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Comparative_price_levels_of_consumer_goods_and_services

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Price_level_index_for_household_final_consumption_expenditure_(HFCE),_2014,_EU-28%3D100-1.png

Geuze · 07-04-2016 01:15AM

maryishere wrote: »

Have you a source for that? Many things in Ireland are quite cheap in real terms...Penneys is cheaper for clothes than most shops in Europe, housing in half of Ireland is very cheap ( you can buy new apartments in some counties for 40k ) , council charges are less...

I am talking about consumer goods, not house prices or taxes.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8c/Price_level_index_for_household_final_consumption_expenditure_%28HFCE%29%2C_2014%2C_EU-28%3D100-1.png

Geuze · 07-04-2016 01:19AM

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Price_level_index_for_household_final_consumption_expenditure_(HFCE),_2014,_EU-28%3D100-1.png

rsh118 · 07-04-2016 01:22AM

I get that people get frustrated by public sector workers fighting changing working conditions, but I'm pretty confident that any private sector worker who was told that from now on they were having a huge change to their working conditions would have a good solid whinge too.

Little CuChulainn · 07-04-2016 11:03AM

DK man wrote: »

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

Nurses do very well getting paid during their training when on the wards. Trainee teachers go into schools and teach for two years and pay over 6k for the privilege of working for free..

You do understand that shift allowances are given for working unsocial hours don't you? They aren't a given.

Sierra Oscar · 07-04-2016 11:10AM

DK man wrote: »

I was talking to a Garda friend last weekend and say that I thought it's terrible that new recruits start off on 23k... He laughed and said that they get a 35% shift allowance on top of that... Still not massive money but figures are too often misrepresented...

You're mate is off the mark with his figures. Which is part of the problem with this whole debate, people throwing out false figures to muddy the debate. The allowances for new recruits have been hugely cutback. The overtime ain't there for new recruits either. The shift allowance isn't guaranteed either.

It's very tough for new Gardai - especially for those who are forced to relocate to Dublin and find their own accommodation. The rent allowance was abolished.

esforum · 07-04-2016 11:14AM

Penneys exists in other countries as well

tayto lover · 07-04-2016 05:04PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You're mate is off the mark with his figures. Which is part of the problem with this whole debate, people throwing out false figures to muddy the debate. The allowances for new recruits have been hugely cutback. The overtime ain't there for new recruits either. The shift allowance isn't guaranteed either.

It's very tough for new Gardai - especially for those who are forced to relocate to Dublin and find their own accommodation. The rent allowance was abolished.

If you have to rely on overtime and shift allowance then the basic wage is too low. If you can't live on the basic wage, which nobody could, on 23K then people are open to be corrupted and bribed if they're struggling.
The Garda should be on twice that basic wage without a doubt.

The_Kew_Tour · 07-04-2016 05:06PM

Taco Chips wrote: »

To be fair education is a two way street. I'm sure if you asked a lot of teachers their opinions of students they'd point out there are a lot of duds who don't have the right attitude to learning and aren't applying themselves properly despite teacher's effort. This is a home environment and society issue where not enough positive value is being put on meritocracy and success.

This two way Street BS has got to stop.

A teacher is getting well paid to teach kids a pupil is not

discus · 07-04-2016 06:17PM

tayto lover wrote: »

on 23K then people are open to be corrupted and bribed if they're struggling.

I hate this argument. It suggests that everyone has a price. There are Gardai out there with integrity you know. However, I imagine like everyone, Gardai will be able to focus well on their job if they don't have financial worries in the back of their head.

tayto lover · 07-04-2016 06:33PM

discus wrote: »

I hate this argument. It suggests that everyone has a price. There are Gardai out there with integrity you know. However, I imagine like everyone, Gardai will be able to focus well on their job if they don't have financial worries in the back of their head.

Whether you do or not the temptation is there if someone is short of money due to being poorly paid. I would hope it would not happen and don't believe it does very often however a decent wage might prevent it.

esforum · 07-04-2016 10:28PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This two way Street BS has got to stop.

A teacher is getting well paid to teach kids a pupil is not

The pupils are getting an education. Something they will require if they want to function in society as adults.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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