Electric Ireland - Free Nest Heating Thermostat + Installation

ted1 · 06-04-2016 08:18PM

MaceFace wrote: »

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Best protect have all the safe guards as a normal smoke alarm, including battery backup.

Just because you don't understand the products or don't buy into what they offer does not mean others don't find value.

I do understand, but your paying a huge mark up for features that are likely to fail when you need them.
The battery backup is there for when the power fails, when the power fails so will your wifi connection, then what is the smart wifi enabled device meant to do.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

bromley52 · 06-04-2016 08:36PM

MaceFace wrote: »

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Best protect have all the safe guards as a normal smoke alarm, including battery backup.
Just because you don't understand the products or don't buy into what they offer does not mean others don't find value.

ted1 wrote: »

I do understand, but your paying a huge mark up for features that are likely to fail when you need them.
The battery backup is there for when the power fails, when the power fails so will your wifi connection, then what is the smart wifi enabled device meant to do.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

I would listen when Ted talks.:D

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 08:47PM

ted1 wrote: »

I do understand, but your paying a huge mark up for features that are likely to fail when you need them.
The battery backup is there for when the power fails, when the power fails so will your wifi connection, then what is the smart wifi enabled device meant to do.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Have you researched any of the devices?
They almost all fulfil the exact same requirements as a dumb fire alarm.
The smart features are on top.
Some people like a system that tests itself overnight and notifies you if there's an issue, or the battery is low, or gives temp and CO2 information remotely. Those are features a lot of people will pay for, myself included. Maybe you won't, but that's a personal preference.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 08:53PM

yllw.ldbttr wrote: »

Have you researched any of the devices?
They almost all fulfil the exact same requirements as a dumb fire alarm.
The smart features are on top.
Some people like a system that tests itself overnight and notifies you if there's an issue, or the battery is low, or gives temp and CO2 information remotely. Those are features a lot of people will pay for, myself included. Maybe you won't, but that's a personal preference.

A big standard alarm will tell you if the battery is low. Beep beep. If you want to know the temperature why spend 120 on a fire alarm? Also if you have a Nest that already tells you the temperature. Is there any advantage getting the temperature at ceiling height ?
Can't see what known the CO2 level will add, a standard CO2 alarm lets you know if the level isn't good.

But each to their own.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 08:59PM

ted1 wrote: »

A big standard alarm will tell you if the battery is low. Beep beep. If you want to know the temperature why spend 120 on a fire alarm? Also if you have a Nest that already tells you the temperature. Is there any advantage getting the temperature at ceiling height ?
Can't see what known the CO2 level will add, a standard CO2 alarm lets you know if the level isn't good.

But each to their own.

Beep Beep you say...
Not if you're not in the house it won't. This will.

Why spend money on anything? Personal preference.

I don't have a nest, but I do have a big house, so yes, I'd like to know the temp in different parts of the house. This can help with deciding whether to trigger heating etc via my Netatmo. This device will let me make that decision remotely or in an automated fashion when I'm not there and the wife or kids or childminder is.

The difference between ceiling temp and mid room temp won't be much in a well insulated house.

Again, same arguments for CO2, remote, on my phone, I can trigger whatever warning I want. Set-off the house alarm, call my mobile if I'm not there and the kids are...

Lots of possibilities for automation and safety, you just need to look beyond a narrow view of why would anyone spend money on features that you have no interest in.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 09:05PM

yllw.ldbttr wrote: »

Beep Beep you say...
Not if you're not in the house it won't. This will.

Why spend money on anything? Personal preference.

I don't have a nest, but I do have a big house, so yes, I'd like to know the temp in different parts of the house. This can help with deciding whether to trigger heating etc via my Netatmo. This device will let me make that decision remotely or in an automated fashion when I'm not there and the wife or kids or childminder is.

The difference between ceiling temp and mid room temp won't be much in a well insulated house.

Again, same arguments for CO2, remote, on my phone, I can trigger whatever warning I want. Set-off the house alarm, call my mobile if I'm not there and the kids are...

Lots of possibilities for automation and safety, you just need to look beyond a narrow view of why would anyone spend money on features that you have no interest in.

I'm all about the automation (it's how I make my living ) but safety devices need built in redundancy and relying on a wifi connection to give its feature that differentiate it from devices that are significantly cheaper is a major flaw.
If the **** hits the fan there needs to be a secondary come method.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 09:07PM

ted1 wrote: »

I'm all about the automation (it's how I make my living ) but safety devices need built in redundancy and relying on a wifi connection to give its feature that differentiate it from devices that are significantly cheaper is a major flaw.
If the **** hits the fan there needs to be a secondary come method.

It has a battery backup and operates in exactly the same fashion as any dumb device.
Thanks for ignoring all of the other points I made.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 09:09PM

yllw.ldbttr wrote: »

It has a battery backup and operates in exactly the same fashion as any dumb device.
Thanks for ignoring all of the other points I made.

I talked about the back up already, it's there for when the power fails, when the power fails the wifi is down too. So the extra €110 offers no advantage.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 09:13PM

ted1 wrote: »

I talked about the back up already, it's there for when the power fails, when the power fails the wifi is down too. So the extra €110 offers no advantage.

No advantage versus what, a dumb device that doesn't have any of those features?
I've already listed all of the advantages that the device offers, and why they are worth that price to me and many others, when there is power and wifi, which is probably in excess of 99.5% of the time.

The fact that the smart features may die when the house is on fire is absolutely irrelevant to me. It will then operate exactly the same as a dumb device. That doesn't take away from the fact that I've derived benefit from the device during its life.

toby2111 · 06-04-2016 09:35PM

Lads,you guys seem very knowledgeable so answer me this. Told the wife about the Nest thermostat deal and she finally got around to checking it out today. She's very impressed with the look and the capabilities of it. So am I but I'm concerned after what Nest are doing to that Revolv system.
So heres my question-if we do get Nest thermostat installed, and things go belly up,can Nest "brick" it like the Revolv? Would it be completely useless or would it still function? I dont fully understand all the talk about servers and cloud based systems etc....

bk · 06-04-2016 09:43PM

ted1 wrote: »

I talked about the back up already, it's there for when the power fails, when the power fails the wifi is down too. So the extra €110 offers no advantage.

Actually ted1 you are completely wrong, these Nest alarms do have some significant advantages over a standard alarm even if the fire breaks out in your electrical wires.

1) All the Nest alarms are linked by a wireless mesh network, separate to the wifi. So even if the wifi goes out, once the first alarm detects the fire, it will still communicate with all the other alarms in your home and trigger them all at the same time.

This can give you valuable extra time to evacuate for instance if the nest fire alarm in the kitchen on the other side of your home detects a fire.

2) Most people only have one ionisation smoke alarm in the house. However they only detect one of the two types of fire (smokey). Fire services now recommend most people actually install two different types of smoke alarms, both an ionisation type and a photoelectric type. Also they recommend installing a CO2 detector. However most people don't know that and just have the bog standard type.

Nest is a more advanced detector type that can detect both smoking and flaming fires and CO2 as well, making it a far more sophisticated detector and much safer, even without wifi, then a bog standard alarm most people use.

3) Nest Smoke alarms test themselves and let you know if there is a problem. Normal alarms need to be manually tested weekly. I bet most people haven't tested their smoke alarms in months! (Go do it now). There is no guarantee they are actually working and I'm sure there are many people who are in danger right now with faulty smoke alarms and they just don't know it!

Nest smoke alarms eliminate this danger.

4) You have totally ignored the fact the most fires probably won't start at the wifi router and in most cases the Nest will trigger and send a notification to your phone long before the fire takes out the router. The phone notification would likely work in 99% of fires.

Now I'm not saying people should run out and buy these, but you really should educate yourself before criticising a product. They are actually an extremely good device, just a little expensive. €50 less and they would be a no brainer IMO.

bk · 06-04-2016 09:46PM

toby2111 wrote: »

So heres my question-if we do get Nest thermostat installed, and things go belly up,can Nest "brick" it like the Revolv? Would it be completely useless or would it still function? I dont fully understand all the talk about servers and cloud based systems etc....

That is the question.

They could "brick" it if they wanted to. However I don't think they would, there would be too much public anger if they did. I think worst case scenario they would turn off the servers, which means you couldn't control it from your phone any more or use any of the advanced features, but probably still turn the heat on and off manually by the physical device.

eddhorse · 06-04-2016 09:50PM

bk wrote: »

That is the question.

They could "brick" it if they wanted to. However I don't think they would, there would be too much public anger if they did. I think worst case scenario they would turn off the servers, which means you couldn't control it from your phone any more or use any of the advanced features, but probably still turn the heat on and off manually by the physical device.

Agreed. When my wifi goes off i can still control mine manually.

toby2111 · 06-04-2016 09:53PM

So you could still schedule the heating/water over a 7 day period? Thats something we cant do now with our current system so even if servers were switched off we would still have an improved system.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 10:13PM

toby2111 wrote: »

So you could still schedule the heating/water over a 7 day period? Thats something we cant do now with our current system so even if servers were switched off we would still have an improved system.

I'd agree with the others. Likelihood of Google killing Nest cloud features in the short or even medium term would be slim IMHO.
But my advice is not to just jump into Nest, it does offer some good functionality, but there are many devices, so outline your requirements, do your research and pick the one that's right for your setup.

For me that was a Netatmo and programmable TRVs.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 10:19PM

toby2111 wrote: »

So you could still schedule the heating/water over a 7 day period? Thats something we cant do now with our current system so even if servers were switched off we would still have an improved system.

There's a good thread linked below.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057508887

ted1 · 06-04-2016 10:27PM

bk wrote: »

Actually ted1 you are completely wrong, these Nest alarms do have some significant advantages over a standard alarm even if the fire breaks out in your electrical wires.

1) All the Nest alarms are linked by a wireless mesh network, separate to the wifi. So even if the wifi goes out, once the first alarm detects the fire, it will still communicate with all the other alarms in your home and trigger them all at the same time.

This can give you valuable extra time to evacuate for instance if the nest fire alarm in the kitchen on the other side of your home detects a fire.

2) Most people only have one ionisation smoke alarm in the house. However they only detect one of the two types of fire (smokey). Fire services now recommend most people actually install two different types of smoke alarms, both an ionisation type and a photoelectric type. Also they recommend installing a CO2 detector. However most people don't know that and just have the bog standard type.

Nest is a more advanced detector type that can detect both smoking and flaming fires and CO2 as well, making it a far more sophisticated detector and much safer, even without wifi, then a bog standard alarm most people use.

3) Nest Smoke alarms test themselves and let you know if there is a problem. Normal alarms need to be manually tested weekly. I bet most people haven't tested their smoke alarms in months! (Go do it now). There is no guarantee they are actually working and I'm sure there are many people who are in danger right now with faulty smoke alarms and they just don't know it!

Nest smoke alarms eliminate this danger.

4) You have totally ignored the fact the most fires probably won't start at the wifi router and in most cases the Nest will trigger and send a notification to your phone long before the fire takes out the router. The phone notification would likely work in 99% of fires.

Now I'm not saying people should run out and buy these, but you really should educate yourself before criticising a product. They are actually an extremely good device, just a little expensive. €50 less and they would be a no brainer IMO.

With regards 1 and 2, here's one for 30 dollars which offers the same functionality The Kidde PI2010 http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/smoke-alarms/pi2010/

3 some test and alert most do beep to signal a fault ir low battery

4. It doesn't have to be a fire at a router , any electrical fire can trip the Circuit.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 10:28PM

toby2111 wrote: »

So you could still schedule the heating/water over a 7 day period? Thats something we cant do now with our current system so even if servers were switched off we would still have an improved system.

Yes, that's a feature

I wouldn't worry about Them changing killing the thermostat , the one they did kill was a company they bought for the Dev team and really didn't have many products in people's home.

toby2111 · 06-04-2016 10:31PM

yllw.ldbttr wrote: »

But my advice is not to just jump into Nest, it does offer some good functionality, but there are many devices, so outline your requirements, do your research and pick the one that's right for your setup.
.

I've wanted to change our crappy APT 24 hour timer for ages,got quoted about €150 for a 2 channel 7 day programmeable set up. Our electricity contract is up and I saw EI were doing the Nest deal. Checked bonkers and switcher to compare savings,bonkers figures were wrong but according to switcher we could save €100 per year by switching to Energia. EI Nest deal would cost €100 per year minus the €50 switch fee so €150 in total based on our usage. That seems like a good deal to me for a Nest but I'm open to other suggestions. Is there a comparable device out there that would cost(installation included) around €200?

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 10:40PM

toby2111 wrote: »

I've wanted to change our crappy APT 24 hour timer for ages,got quoted about €150 for a 2 channel 7 day programmeable set up. Our electricity contract is up and I saw EI were doing the Nest deal. Checked bonkers and switcher to compare savings,bonkers figures were wrong but according to switcher we could save €100 per year by switching to Energia. EI Nest deal would cost €100 per year minus the €50 switch fee so €150 in total based on our usage. That seems like a good deal to me for a Nest but I'm open to other suggestions. Is there a comparable device out there that would cost(installation included) around €200?

I can't comment on costs as I've stopped looking since I chose Netatmo but there are a few different options in the thread I linked to earlier. The salus option looked good but the app had awful reviews which was a deal breaker for me. Nest only allowed max three on /off periods which didn't suit our house (I think it didn't do hot water either at the time, does now). Netatmo ticked all the boxes for me but might not for you. Really depends on your personal setup and what you want from the device.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 10:44PM

yllw.ldbttr wrote: »

Nest only allowed max three on /off periods which didn't suit our house (I think it didn't do hot water either at the time, does now).

The NEST will do as many on off periods as you like, just set the temp low so it doesn't kick in, also with auto away it turns off when there's no one home . Gen 3 does water too

toby2111 · 06-04-2016 10:47PM

We live in an old bungalow,no zones or anything. 2 valves on tank,1 for water,1 for rads. In summer,I just turn down thermostat in hall so rads dont come on. New Nest does heating and water seperately which is what I need. Being able to operate/change schedule from mobile is a big plus as we waste oil while not in the house. Cost wise,it seems that Nest may be the best option. Our monthly electricity bill will increase by €10 or so but it may help reduce our oil usage also.

yllw.ldbttr · 06-04-2016 10:48PM

ted1 wrote: »

The NEST will do as many on off periods as you like, just set the temp low so it doesn't kick in, also with auto away it turns off when there's no one home . Gen 3 does water too

You're right, been quite a while since I looked at them and I think that particular limitation was with Climote. Tado and Hive were the other options I looked at besides those listed above.

ted1 · 06-04-2016 10:50PM

toby2111 wrote: »

We live in an old bungalow,no zones or anything. 2 valves on tank,1 for water,1 for rads. In summer,I just turn down thermostat in hall so rads dont come on. New Nest does heating and water seperately which is what I need. Being able to operate/change schedule from mobile is a big plus as we waste oil while not in the house. Cost wise,it seems that Nest may be the best option. Our monthly electricity bill will increase by €10 or so but it may help reduce our oil usage also.

What type of insulation do you have in the attic ? If it's cold you may be better off insulating the attic first, as that will catch the low hanging fruit

toby2111 · 06-04-2016 10:53PM

ted1 wrote: »

What type of insulation do you have in the attic ? If it's cold you may be better off insulating the attic first, as that will catch the low hanging fruit

Attic is insulated and I got the walls pumped a few years ago. House retains heat pretty well.

bk · 06-04-2016 11:10PM

ted1 wrote: »

With regards 1 and 2, here's one for 30 dollars which offers the same functionality The Kidde PI2010 http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/smoke-alarms/pi2010/

US only, not available in UK or Ireland.

Doesn't support CO2. Oh and now you have gone from a cheap smoke alarm to a 35 model!!

BTW finally from my research, the Kiddie dual sensor alarms have terrible reliability, go read the reviews on Amazon.

Once you start investigating smoke alarms, you quickly realise it is far more complicated then just buying a cheap e10 alarm that most people think.

ted1 wrote: »

3 some test and alert most do beep to signal a fault ir low battery

Standard smoke alarms only beep if battery is low. They obviously don't beep if the battery or alarm suddenly dies. This is why you are always recommended to test smoke alarms once a week (which of course most people never do).

Nest is one of the few smoke alarms that do a full test automatically. The cloud service will automatically send your phone a notification if a previously connected smoke alarm stops responding (either due to a hardware failure or sudden battery failure). Obviously a non smart smoke alarm simply can't do that. If a non smart smoke alarm suddenly dies, it simply won't work and you won't know unless you push the test button on the front of it.

Futhermore Nest smoke alarms have a microphone and once a month they automatically do a self test by triggering the speaker briefly and the microphone sees if it is picking up the audio. This ensures that the speaker in the alarm is correctly working. Standard smoke alarms can't do this. Again the only way to ensure a standard smoke alarm is working is to physically test it once a week.

ted1 wrote: »

4. It doesn't have to be a fire at a router , any electrical fire can trip the Circuit.

Which only takes out the wifi. The Nest alarms will continue to work, go off and communicate with one another. The only thing you lose is a notification to your phone, they will still save your life if your home.

If you are really concerned about this, then you can always get a UPS (battery backup) for your wifi/broadband router which should keep your wifi running long enough for Nest to send out a notification even if the power goes out.

BTW Rumour has it that Nest are working on a home security alarm system. Going by how most modern security systems work, this will have battery backup and likely connect by 3g/4g (as a backup to wifi) and will likely connect with the Nest smoke alarms and Nest cams (it is all really a no brainer next step). So even if the power went out due to a fire, you would still get a notification via the connected security system.

bk · 06-04-2016 11:25PM

ted1 read the two following articles about Nest protect. The more I read about it, the more impressed I am, non-smart alarms beeps come nowhere near this.

To be honest, I'm seriously thinking of getting a few now!

https://nest.com/support/article/What-is-Self-Monitoring
https://nest.com/support/article/What-is-Nightly-Promise

Nest Protect's Self Test automatically tests the following things:

Sensors: smoke, carbon monoxide
Audio: speaker and horn (2nd gen Nest Protect only)
Power: battery charge (including backup batteries for wired Nest Protect) and 120V line power connection for wired Nest Protect
Wi-Fi connection: so you can receive alerts and notifications on your phone.

.... Nest Protect will show you it's offline if it hasn't been able to connect to the Internet in the last 48 hours. Nightly Promise will glow yellow, and you'll see the information in the Nest app.

Nest Protect constantly monitors its internal sensors, batteries and Wi-Fi connection. Nightly Promise lets you know the results of this Self Test every night when you turn out the lights. And if the Nest Protects in your home are connected, Nightly Promise doesn't just let you know if the alarm nearest you is working. It shows you the status of every Nest Protect in the house.

If you see your Nest Protect glow green as you turn out the lights, you know its sensors, Wi-Fi, and batteries are working, as are the sensors, Wi-Fi, and batteries of all your other interconnected Nest Protects.

If your Nest Protect glows yellow instead, that means there's a problem with it or with another Nest Protect in your home. Push the Nest button to hear its message

d31b0y · 07-04-2016 03:33PM

Can someone explain the thermostat on the nest?
I was watching an install video and in the comments, it said something about having to connect the thermo via USB. I thought the thermostat was wireless to the wee controller yoke?

For clarity, my system is OFCH which heats the water at the same time. Burner is outside beside the oil tank. 24 hour round clock thing just inside the back door for control. As far as I know, there is no thermostat in the current system. Heat is just on or off (at least, I haven't found one after living there over a year

).

ted1 · 07-04-2016 03:43PM

d31b0y wrote: »

Can someone explain the thermostat on the nest?
I was watching an install video and in the comments, it said something about having to connect the thermo via USB. I thought the thermostat was wireless to the wee controller yoke?

For clarity, my system is OFCH which heats the water at the same time. Burner is outside beside the oil tank. 24 hour round clock thing just inside the back door for control. As far as I know, there is no thermostat in the current system. Heat is just on or off (at least, I haven't found one after living there over a year ).

It's uses a micro USB for power. Put the box on the wall where the current system is, then plug in the thermostat somewhere else in the house, the hallway works for me.

d31b0y · 07-04-2016 07:40PM

Ah good, for a second I was worried I'd have to wire the thermostat back to the unit which would have been ridiculous.

Electric Ireland - Free Nest Heating Thermostat + Installation

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