Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

maryishere · 05-04-2016 07:57PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Most in the public sector get away with absolute murder and would not survive in the private sector. I've worked in both and the public sector is definitely cushier.

Most people have relatives, friends or acquaintainces who have worked in both sectors, and most people would agree with you there. No comparison. Even the statistics quoted earlier show far more sickies in the public sector. I guess their employer is less likely to go bust, relocate elsewhere or complain or offer redundancy.

maryishere · 05-04-2016 08:02PM

KatW4 wrote: »

Do you really think that all teachers get into teaching for the holidays and the pay?

Not all, but many do. If it was not for the pay, holidays and pension not many would. If you think its because they enjoy helping kids / working with kids, how many would work in a creche for longer hours, a third the pay, no pension and no great holidays? Everyone I know has had teachers at some stage who had no interest in teaching, but there are still some wonderful teachers.

Little CuChulainn · 05-04-2016 08:22PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Most in the public sector get away with absolute murder and would not survive in the private sector. I've worked in both and the public sector is definitely cushier.

I worked 9 years in the private sector before joining the public sector. Much higher scrutiny where I am now. In fact, I can even go to jail for a big **** up.

maryishere · 05-04-2016 08:28PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I worked 9 years in the private sector before joining the public sector. Much higher scrutiny where I am now. In fact, I can even go to jail for a big **** up.

a big **** up? And you are in the public sector? Are you the regulator or work in the Central Bank or one of the other banks? The biggest **** up was caused by them, costing the country many tens of billions and not one of them went to jail, so I doubt you will go to jail. Rest easy;)

loalae · 05-04-2016 08:37PM

I work in the public sector and I have to say that the amount of unpaid hours that myself and my colleagues put in is crazy - we all on average work between 50-60 hours a week and get 'time in lieu' for the extra time that we can never afford to take because if the amount of work that needs to be done. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining because I love my job and it's meaningful for me but to suggest that people go into the public sector for a cushy number is just false! Our salaries aren't all that fantastic either.

Little CuChulainn · 05-04-2016 08:52PM

maryishere wrote: »

a big **** up? And you are in the public sector? Are you the regulator or work in the Central Bank or one of the other banks? The biggest **** up was caused by them, costing the country many tens of billions and not one of them went to jail, so I doubt you will go to jail. Rest easy;)

Yes I'm in public sector, no I'm not a banker. The other thing about private v public is that it's much easier to get recognition for good work in private sector and get rewarded for it. promotion is easier too. There is very little link between work and reward in public sector.

Get Real · 05-04-2016 09:24PM

maryishere wrote: »

And the public service pay premium still exists, (reports linked), so you please do not peddle myths.

Many people in the private sector took a 100% wage cut in the past 8 years too, and do not have your pension. Why should the ps have a premium at all, given how extraordinarily advantageous the security and defined benefit pension is?

Hey Mary. Talk about peddling myths. You do know a 100% pay cut means they're working for free by your logic now right?

100% pay cut means their whole salary was cut, wow, good to know you have reliable figures and care about myths.

In case you missed my reply to your teacher's christmas presents reply too, here it is below. I'm willing to compromise, and believe in constructive debate. But outrageous "us versus them" comments do no good for anyone and only benefit the big boys and girls at the top in both sectors.

Get Real wrote: »

I've looked in and out of this forum over the past while.

And I can understand both sides at times as I have worked in both public and private. TBH there's positives and negatives to both.

Too many people take a grass is greener approach. But this post above is just madness.

That has nothing to do with pay or anything. Those parents decide to give teachers Christmas presents of their own free will. Are we going to start analyzing how many presents or thank yous a job gets from members of the public now?

And she does grinds to get more money...well yeah, wouldn't you? Thats a good business attitude and if she can make money off private individuals who want her services, fair play to her. Whats the;) for as if its some hush hush thing?

If its so good, why not apply yourself? Don't you want the job if its so great? So go for it!

People, this is not public v private. There are good and bad to both. This is about inequality, suffered within the public service and within the private service.

Its also about huge rent inflation, mortgage rules, uncertainty about forming a government. Why those in the public sector have been shafted by their older colleagues. Why those in the private sector have been shafted by their management, why people with half the qualifications have jumped in ahead of them because of nepotism and connections.

Whatever sector you're in, if you're getting f~~~ed, you should complain about your conditions, not each other.

You should put pressure on, or change to a job thats better to its employees or upskill and leave. This applies to both sectors.

It should not come down to who gets nice little Christmas presents, a box of Quality Street perhaps, at the end of the year.

Paulzx · 05-04-2016 09:52PM

maryishere wrote: »

Most people have relatives, friends or acquaintainces who have worked in both sectors, and most people would agree with you there. No comparison. Even the statistics quoted earlier show far more sickies in the public sector. I guess their employer is less likely to go bust, relocate elsewhere or complain or offer redundancy.

"Most people"

Let me guess. You done a text poll. Please tell me at least 5 people replied so we know your figures are accurate:pac:

KatW4 · 05-04-2016 10:25PM

maryishere wrote:

Not all, but many do. If it was not for the pay, holidays and pension not many would. If you think its because they enjoy helping kids / working with kids, how many would work in a creche for longer hours, a third the pay, no pension and no great holidays? Everyone I know has had teachers at some stage who had no interest in teaching, but there are still some wonderful teachers.

Well I can't speak for every single teacher I know but plenty of us would. Although it is different, it would depend on the age group. Teachers tend to have a preference between the infants and the older kids. I know myself that I wouldn't like to work with kids younger than junior infants in a creche.

Of course there are teachers out there who have no interest, but you can't make a sweeping statement about every single teacher in the country only doing the job for the pay/holidays.

maryishere · 05-04-2016 10:52PM

KatW4 wrote: »

Of course there are teachers out there who have no interest, but you can't make a sweeping statement about every single teacher in the country only doing the job for the pay/holidays.

Thats why I said not all, but many do just get in to teaching for the holidays and the pay. I never said " every single teacher". I said not all, but many. I also said " Everyone I know has had teachers at some stage who had no interest in teaching, but there are still some wonderful teachers."

Think of it this way. If the teachers in the country only got the median average full time wage in the private sector of 28.5k, and only got the same pension entitlements as the private sector, and only got private sector holidays, worked longer hours and only had typical private sector job security, do you think that would be fair? I think not. Plus you would not attract as many people for the job. I am not advocating the above.
I think teachers should get paid more than the median salary in the economy, for various reasons -the work they do, the qualifications they need etc.

But should Irish teachers STILL be amongst the best paid in world, despite 'austerity' cuts over the past 6 or 7 years? The OECD thinks Irish teachers are still amongst the best paid in the world. Their say their " Education at a Glance compared data from 34 countries in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and a number of partner countries on the structure, finance and performance of the sector."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-amongst-best-paid-in-world-despite-austerity-cuts-oecd-34228771.html

Do not forget the countries borrowing is at an all time high, 200 billion and still borrowing more every year, despite historically low interest rates and oil prices.
Our debt per head of population is the second highest in the world. The renowned economist Colm McCarthy would say the country has not run out of compassion ( for paying more money), it has run out of money.l

maryishere · 05-04-2016 11:02PM

Get Real wrote: »

Hey Mary. Talk about peddling myths. You do know a 100% pay cut means they're working for free by your logic now right?

100% pay cut means their whole salary was cut, wow, good to know you have reliable figures and care about myths.

Not a myth. When I said some people in the private sector had a 100% pay cut, I mean that. I know of some people (not me) who had a 100% pay cut in the downturn. They were self employed, lost their business and because they had their spouse working and/or a house or whatever (I am not sure of their exact circumstances) they were not entitled to any social welfare. Thats what they said and I believe them, because they said that the dole is means tested for the self employed. I am open to correction but I believe that to be the case. So it was a 100% pay cut. I'd say hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs in the past 10 years. We probably all know some who would have got new jobs, some who emigrated, some got the dole, some went back to college / uni , some got nothing.

evolving_doors · 05-04-2016 11:43PM

maryishere wrote: »

[...]
But should Irish teachers STILL be amongst the best paid in world, despite 'austerity' cuts over the past 6 or 7 years? The OECD thinks Irish teachers are still amongst the best paid in the world. Their say their " Education at a Glance compared data from 34 countries in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and a number of partner countries on the structure, finance and performance of the sector."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-amongst-best-paid-in-world-despite-austerity-cuts-oecd-34228771.html

In fairness though read the quote "The report used data from 2013 and states that while the international average starting pay for a teacher was the equivalent of €28,036, the figure for Ireland was €32,825."

The listed figure for Ireland was indeed €32,825 starting off... but... the vast majority of the teachers I've known have NEVER started off on full time permanent contracts straight out of college, so they are getting a portion of this €32,825 listed figure for many years before being made permanent/indefinite!
Go to the Uk and you walk into a full-time permanent teaching job on Day1.

maryishere wrote: »

Do not forget the countries borrowing is at an all time high, 200 billion and still borrowing more every year, despite historically low interest rates and oil prices.
Our debt per head of population is the second highest in the world. The renowned economist Colm McCarthy would say the country has not run out of compassion ( for paying more money), it has run out of money.l

Well it's a case of how far do you want to go. Would you seriously be recommending someone go into the teaching profession now! 3years min on the degree (assuming you have the perfect subject combination!) then a further 2 on the PME (12k fees unfunded). Then at least a further 5 yrs picking up a bit of sub work or 'hours' here and there. I know at one of the last union conferences teachers were asked how many would recommend the profession to a son/daughter and No-one raised their hand.

So what's going on... everyone I know outside the profession seems to be saying it's the land of milk and honey but those inside the profession seem to be saying it aint necessarily so. Who is most qualified to say?

maryishere · 06-04-2016 12:26AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In fairness though read the quote "The report used data from 2013 and states that while the international average starting pay for a teacher was the equivalent of €28,036, the figure for Ireland was €32,825."

In fairness the report also says: "For a second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €`10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-amongst-best-paid-in-world-despite-austerity-cuts-oecd-34228771.html

I agree with your general point that the younger teachers now often get a raw deal. But so do people starting off in many other careers.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I know at one of the last union conferences teachers were asked how many would recommend the profession to a son/daughter and No-one raised their hand.

lol. People often think the grass is greener on the other side of the valley. And its known that people in a crowd are like sheep: if one or 2 raise their hand about something, more will.

Your point however raises a very very serious question about the calibre of teachers, or lack of. Some here claim they are in the profession because they like teaching kids. We know they are relatively well paid - some of the best in the world according to the survey quoted above - and get good holidays, good pension etc. Its says little about the teachers enthusiasm for teaching that despite the relatively good pay etc, they would not, not one of them you say, have the guts to even raise their paw at the conference.

For what its worth, I would say most people do not want their kids to follow their own career choice: farmers, self employed, doctors, tailors, soldiers, spies...I bet most want something different for their kids.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So what's going on... everyone I know outside the profession seems to be saying it's the land of milk and honey but those inside the profession seem to be saying it aint necessarily so. Who is most qualified to say?

Nobody said its the land of milk and honey, get your facts right please. Would you prefer work in some other country, where teachers are not as well paid as Ireland? Or what else would you like to work at?

esforum · 06-04-2016 11:30AM

ah I knew Mary would return to the start again. back at the Irish V international arguement. Ignoring once again that this rule applies to all jobs in Ireland.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-04-2016 11:31AM

Teachers especially should have to prove themselves. They get well paid and yet some of them are waste of money

Teachers I have little sympathy for

evolving_doors · 06-04-2016 01:46PM

So what do you want Maryishere, how do you intend to attract 'top calibre ' into the profession.... By your standards any person should be happy to accept this supposed wonderful employment conditions.
So what could you do for the profession to attract more applicants?
Cut pay?

evolving_doors · 06-04-2016 01:50PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Teachers especially should have to prove themselves. They get well paid and yet some of them are waste of money

Teachers I have little sympathy for

Fair enough, it's a different story if you have kids in school though! Are you happy if your school can't get a qualified motivated maths teacher that a French sub jumps in?

The_Kew_Tour · 06-04-2016 01:53PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Fair enough, it's a different story if you have kids in school though! Are you happy if your school can't get a qualified motivated maths teacher that a French sub jumps in?

No, but that was not case where I went school. I had 1 super teacher and that was it.

Some I thought were utter useless.

Geuze · 06-04-2016 04:36PM

maryishere wrote: »

Thats why I said not all, but many do just get in to teaching for the holidays and the pay. I never said " every single teacher". I said not all, but many. I also said " Everyone I know has had teachers at some stage who had no interest in teaching, but there are still some wonderful teachers."

Think of it this way. If the teachers in the country only got the median average full time wage in the private sector of 28.5k,

Note that "median average" is a meaningless phrase.

Average = mean
Median is a related, but different, measure of central location.

Also note that like I said before, we have no proof that the median wage is 28,500.

Your figure is taken from an Irish Times article, with no source quoted.

What we do know:

mean earnings = 35,768 in 2014

Geuze · 06-04-2016 04:38PM

Here are mean 2014 earnings, by sector:

Table 1 Average annual earnings by economic sector
NACE Principal Activity 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Five year change(2009-2014) Three year change(2011-2014) Annual change (2013-2014)

€ € € € € € % % %

B-E Industry 41,797 42,196 41,832 42,750 42,644 44,167 +5.7 +5.6 +3.6

F Construction 39,035 37,150 35,611 35,493 36,230 37,884 -2.9 +6.4 +4.6

G Wholesale/retail trade; repair of motor vehicles 25,990 26,097 26,352 26,917 27,252 27,246 +4.8 +3.4 -

H Transportation and storage 38,234 36,686 37,049 37,645 38,342 38,101 -0.3 +2.8 -0.6

I Accommodation and food services 17,649 16,949 16,910 16,319 16,128 16,658 -5.6 -1.5 +3.3

J Information and communication 48,261 49,068 49,768 52,035 53,067 53,442 +10.7 +7.4 +0.7

K-L Financial, insurance and real estate 49,302 51,342 50,985 51,389 51,306 53,393 +8.3 +4.7 +4.1

M Professional, scientific and technical 42,280 41,597 39,886 41,972 42,269 41,165 -2.6 +3.2 -2.6

N Administrative and support services 25,789 24,945 25,303 25,737 25,563 25,500 -1.1 +0.8 -0.2

O Public administration and defence 51,611 48,755 47,060 48,118 48,283 47,862 -7.3 +1.7 -0.9

P Education 46,216 43,868 44,606 43,664 42,554 41,332 -10.6 -7.3 -2.9

Q Human health and social work 39,589 37,909 37,277 36,737 35,763 35,025 -11.5 -6.0 -2.1

R-S Arts, entertainment, recreation and other service activities 24,651 25,043 23,404 24,071 25,158 24,438 -0.9 +4.4 -2.9

Total 36,835 36,117 35,905 36,079 35,830 35,768 -2.9 -0.4 -0.2
1 Average annual earnings are inclusive of overtime and irregular earnings.

Geuze · 06-04-2016 04:46PM

maryishere wrote: »

But should Irish teachers STILL be amongst the best paid in world, despite 'austerity' cuts over the past 6 or 7 years? The OECD thinks Irish teachers are still amongst the best paid in the world. Their say their " Education at a Glance compared data from 34 countries in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and a number of partner countries on the structure, finance and performance of the sector."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-amongst-best-paid-in-world-despite-austerity-cuts-oecd-34228771.html

Yes, we should be proud of having well-paid teachers.

Wouldn't you want good people to teach your children?

The OECD Education at a Glance 2014 summary is here:

http://www.oecd.org/edu/Ireland-EAG2014-Country-Note.pdf

It does say that our teachers are paid above the OECD average, which is not surprising, since all wages here are above the OECD averages.

Geuze · 06-04-2016 04:49PM

maryishere wrote: »

But should Irish teachers STILL be amongst the best paid in world, despite 'austerity' cuts over the past 6 or 7 years? The OECD thinks Irish teachers are still amongst the best paid in the world. Their say their " Education at a Glance compared data from 34 countries in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and a number of partner countries on the structure, finance and performance of the sector."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/irish-teachers-amongst-best-paid-in-world-despite-austerity-cuts-oecd-34228771.html

From the OECD summary, you will note that Irish teachers get paid 19% less than equivalent workers in Ireland.

Please see indicator D3.2

http://www.oecd.org/edu/Ireland-EAG2014-Country-Note.pdf

Geuze · 06-04-2016 04:52PM

In the OECD 2015 Education at a Glance, it reports that Irish primary teachers start on USD 34,899 compared to OECD average of USD 29,807.

Given that Ireland is one of the richer OECD countries, this seems reasonable to me.

maryishere · 06-04-2016 08:51PM

Geuze wrote: »

In the OECD 2015 Education at a Glance, it reports that Irish primary teachers start on USD 34,899 compared to OECD average of USD 29,807.

Given that Ireland is one of the richer OECD countries, this seems reasonable to me.

Ireland one of the richer OECD countries - are you serious, what with the government debt being €200,000,000,000.00 (the second highest per head of population of any country in the world ) and increasing daily, and the troika having to rescue us only a few years ago?

And from the report quoted above, what do you think of the second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland....does that also seem reasonable to you? Or do you think it is reasonable to the taxpayer who is paying those public sector wages, along with government borrowing?

Taco Chips · 06-04-2016 09:52PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No, but that was not case where I went school. I had 1 super teacher and that was it.

Some I thought were utter useless.

To be fair education is a two way street. I'm sure if you asked a lot of teachers their opinions of students they'd point out there are a lot of duds who don't have the right attitude to learning and aren't applying themselves properly despite teacher's effort. This is a home environment and society issue where not enough positive value is being put on meritocracy and success.

Geuze · 06-04-2016 09:57PM

maryishere wrote: »

Ireland one of the richer OECD countries - are you serious, what with the government debt being €200,000,000,000.00 (the second highest per head of population of any country in the world ) and increasing daily, and the troika having to rescue us only a few years ago?

And from the report quoted above, what do you think of the second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland....does that also seem reasonable to you? Or do you think it is reasonable to the taxpayer who is paying those public sector wages, along with government borrowing?

Yes, Ireland has high income per head, though as you say, public debt is also high.

The price level in Ireland is 20-25% above the EU average price level, so I would fully expect wage levels here to be above EU or OECD average rates.

If rent/energy/medical costs fell in Ireland, then wages could stay flat, or even fall.

But as long as high cost cartels and monopolies in energy / medical / legal / property are supported, then workers need higher wages to pay prices 20-25% above the EU average.

Geuze · 06-04-2016 10:00PM

maryishere wrote: »

And from the report quoted above, what do you think of the second-level teacher at the top end of the scale, the difference is reported as about €10,000 year, with an OECD average of the equivalent of €49,896 compared with €59,988 in Ireland....does that also seem reasonable to you? Or do you think it is reasonable to the taxpayer who is paying those public sector wages, along with government borrowing?

In return for 60k, we should be demanding of our teachers, I would:

increase the school year
move PT meetings outside class time
move training into June / July

So pay them well, but expect high productivity and accountability.

And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life.

maudgonner · 06-04-2016 10:06PM

Geuze wrote: »

In return for 60k, we should be demanding of our teachers, I would:
increase the school year

move PT meetings outside class time

move training into June / July

So pay them well, but expect high productivity and accountability.

And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life.

I agree with all of that. I'd also add in exam supervision and marking, for secondary school teachers.

Mardy Bum · 06-04-2016 10:10PM

Geuze wrote: »

In return for 60k, we should be demanding of our teachers, I would:
increase the school year

move PT meetings outside class time

move training into June / July

So pay them well, but expect high productivity and accountability.

And make it much easier to let go of poor teachers - no more job for life.

Everything you said there is happening more or less already to some extent including your final point.

maryishere · 06-04-2016 10:11PM

Geuze wrote: »

The price level in Ireland is 20-25% above the EU average price level, .

Have you a source for that? Many things in Ireland are quite cheap in real terms...Penneys is cheaper for clothes than most shops in Europe, housing in half of Ireland is very cheap ( you can buy new apartments in some counties for 40k ) , council charges are less...

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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