Irish rugby's inability to produce scrumhalves

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

From my experience of coaching and refereeing I really have to disagree with that. Yes it could be true to some extent in some places but not all. Best player is far from simply your outhalf. And order then doesn't go 13/15. It varies a huge amount depending on resources of club/school and varies again depending on the year group/age group

So he's right then.

The reason why we produce so few Scrum Halfs is because it is a position that demands a few skills that we are not very good at coaching.

In general, coaching is of a poor standard here. The academies are pretty good but only the top 1% of players make it that far. Meaning, there's probably a few potential decent 9's out there in the top 20% that could make it if they got decent coaching but there are more than likely not going to get it.

By the way I remember Guinness had an amazing 9 few years back. Very skilful and very competitive. I reckon this guy had the potential to play at a very high level, don't know what happened to him

In the academy, there is probably only one or two slots available for a nine and that's going to more likely going to go to a Rugby school guy who plays 9. When there could be another schools player who plays 10, 15 but could be a better 9 if he focussed on that position. If you are decent player in schools you tend not play 9.

leinstertalk wrote: »

Two of the best underage 9's in the country this year played fullback(Hugh O'Sullivan/Belvedere) and wing(Paddy Patterson/Blackrock) for their school.

What I would like to in schools and youths is players play a multiple of positions.

I remember playing adult junior rugby and we needed someone to play 10. The coach (who was very good) just told some Kiwi guy to play there and he was excellent. Another kiwi guy was a small lad and ended up playing second row when we were short and could ruck better than most of the pack.

I hate to say it but the way rugby is played here reminds me of the way some Americans play Soccer. I remember when we were young American Soccer teams used to come over and a few of them stayed with us in our house. So I went off an watch the matches and they got hammered - in every match - kinda 10 - 0.

When we play the Kiwis at any level (except woman's) they hammer us - usually without even trying that hard.

I feel the game here is need of a radical overhaul if we ever want to be taken seriously against the best in the world. Instead, it is run by a conservative Irish mentality. In Dublin, 50% of the people are only interested in it because of a class thing. If the God of poshness decided all the Rugby schools switch to Roller Skating because that's what upper middle class people now do - that's what they would do. Compare the skills level of an average soccer U10 or GAA team to an average Rugby team and there can be up to an Atlantic Ocean of difference.

It's a joke we are so reliant of schools for the development of a sport.

You go to school to learn English, Irish, Maths etc and get ready for college if you are academic. Sport of course is also import. But clubs should drive that not school teachers who study to teach Geography or whatever not rugby,

leinstertalk wrote: »

The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.
Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.
The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.

Who says move away? you conjoin schools and clubs, invest more in underage clubs, raise competition, standards and most importantly widen the playing pool.

Its bizarre, only in Ireland do you have people not wanting the game to grow because of some fear the sacred cow of schools rugby might be hauled in and overtaken. The point of the IRFU is not to sell advertising to the casual fan, the semblance of rugby, its to grow the game.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The reason why we produce so few Scrum Halfs is because it is a position that demands a few skills that we are not very good at coaching.

In general, coaching is of a poor standard here. The academies are pretty good but only the top 1% of players make it that far. Meaning, there's probably a few potential decent 9's out there in the top 20% that could make it if they got decent coaching but there are more than likely not going to get it.

By the way I remember Guinness had an amazing 9 few years back. Very skilful and very competitive. I reckon this guy had the potential to play at a very high level, don't know what happened to him

In the academy, there is probably only one or two slots available for a nine and that's going to more likely going to go to a Rugby school guy who plays 9. When there could be another schools player who plays 10, 15 but could be a better 9 if he focussed on that position. If you are decent player in schools you tend not play 9.

But age grade teams are not about in many respects what position a player will end up in. You pick the best of what you have where best utilised. I don't think you can say the coaching isn't good enough. There only needs to be 2/3 positions available in each academy for a 9. We don't have the depth for more. We don't have the ability to have very strong fully independent semi pro teams/pro teams and its more likely a player from a rugby school will get a slot as they get more opportunities to be seen. Its not really true to say if a decent player at age grade you don't tend to play 9. Its very difficult to prove that

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What I would like to in schools and youths is players play a multiple of positions.

I remember playing adult junior rugby and we needed someone to play 10. The coach (who was very good) just told some Kiwi guy to play there and he was excellent. Another kiwi guy was a small lad and ended up playing second row when we were short and could ruck better than most of the pack.

I hate to say it but the way rugby is played here reminds me of the way some Americans play Soccer. I remember when we were young American Soccer teams used to come over and a few of them stayed with us in our house. So I went off an watch the matches and they got hammered - in every match - kinda 10 - 0.

When we play the Kiwis at any level (except woman's) they hammer us - usually without even trying that hard.

I feel the game here is need of a radical overhaul if we ever want to be taken seriously against the best in the world. Instead, it is run by a conservative Irish mentality. In Dublin, 50% of the people are only interested in it because of a class thing. If the God of poshness decided all the Rugby schools switch to Roller Skating because that's what upper middle class people now do - that's what they would do. Compare the skills level of an average soccer U10 or GAA team to an average Rugby team and there can be up to an Atlantic Ocean of difference.

It's a joke we are so reliant of schools for the development of a sport.

You go to school to learn English, Irish, Maths etc and get ready for college if you are academic. Sport of course is also import. But clubs should drive that not school teachers who study to teach Geography or whatever not rugby,

How do you propose getting people to play more positions?
Some of what you say is true but a lot is rubbish. Sport and academia. Its been proven playing sports improves grades...
Its not a joke that we are reliant on schools for the development of a sport. Its a joke that we are reliant on a certain type of schools in many areas. Most of which are out of reach of a lot of people due to the financial costs of attending those schools.

leinstertalk wrote: »

The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.
Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.
The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.

To say all the most skilled come from schools is nonsense and a huge generalisation. Underage club players may not have better skills in some aspects purely because they wont train as much.
Irish Rugby needs to change the focus from schools rugby as the primary development area or at least combine schools and clubs better in terms of LTPD and linking kids in rugby playing schools with clubs better and have interaction between both rugby schools and rugby clubs at all ages more often.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Its bizarre, only in Ireland do you have people not wanting the game to grow because of some fear the sacred cow of schools rugby might be hauled in and overtaken. The point of the IRFU is not to sell advertising to the casual fan, the semblance of rugby, its to grow the game.

Its about power and influence. Schools, old boys have the power and influence. And changing schools game may mean schools power is eroded and that cant happen...

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sport and academia. Its been proven playing sports improves grades...

I think you would struggle for a decent peer reviewed paper to help you out there.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ok. To improve rugby standards then we should just created more private schools?

As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create more rugby players.

No it isn't and I know you're not being serious...
But being serious what can be done to help create more players?

As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.

Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.

Where are you talking about when you say GAA is mainly a Saturday Sport while Club rugby is mainly a Sunday Sport in many areas including several Connacht leagues, the Leinster leagues and some West, all south Munster leagues games are Saturdays.
In GAA where im from GAA is mainly mid week with very little club GAA weekends and if so its Sunday more than Saturday

leinstertalk wrote: »

what highly skilled back has been produced by underage club rugby in the past 10 years?
how many have even played Ireland u20 rugby?

The average underage club player does not have the same skill level as the average underage schools player. Which was reflected this year in the Ireland underage squads.

GAA is a huge problem for rugbys growth, much more so than any other sport.

Chicken egg situation. Speaking of the GAA, look at Dublin, invested in grassroots county wide, not just a few, already elite, clubs, and now they are looking like an unstoppable juggernaut.

Compare that to Leinster rugby, does all it can to destroy club rugby (in conjunction with the IRFU) as a pipeline for pro players, then they point out its not a pipeline for players and the standards have dropped way off.

Why do you object to a widening of the player pool?


Personally I'd do away with the schools cup, integrate clubs and schools in the one competition, invest equally across the board, make a long term decision that every club and school will have a gym and access to Leinster trained S&C and skills coaches. That is how you grow the game.

How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.

Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.

leinstertalk wrote: »

what highly skilled back has been produced by underage club rugby in the past 10 years?

I have seen some exceptional ones in youths that have been just as skillful as anything I have seen in schools.

how many have even played Ireland u20 rugby?

That's not always a meritocracy and the schools guys are training 5 / 6 times a week so are always going to be ahead on fitness.

The last few years Skerries Community School which isn't a rugby school but the youths teams from Skerries RFC who go to the local school just entering the competition have done pretty well and beat a lot - if not hammered - a lot of section B schools like High School etc.

Apparently they only train once a week. I saw them and they all had great technique and skill. Who knows, if there were training 5 times a week, they would be at a Rock / Belvo standard and a few would make Ireland U20's.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Agreed.

Most do not all. And most in fee paying/rugby schools dominate as theyre given more opportunities to succeed and more chances to be looked at for progression. To help the sport we need to halt recruitment into the rugby schools for schools cup and improve the coaching of talented players outside of those schools.

Don't think so.

Will agree with you on this point.

Ok. To improve rugby standards then we should just created more private schools?
As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create
more rugby players.

No it isn't. To improve rugby standards we need more coaches. We need more provincial staff to work on coaches in clubs and give more assistance. Numbers of development officers is down. Why?

As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.

Where are you basing that on? Where is GAA mainly a Saturday Sport and club underage isn't mainly a Sunday Sport. A lot of leinster underage club rugby is Saturday. A lot of leagues in Connacht are played both Saturdays and Sundays. South Munster, West Munster played Saturday

Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.

Maybe so but club underage GAA is played all year round in most areas of the country. I have had players on teams I coach missing for rugby games in November-January because they've been playing GAA....

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think you would struggle for a decent peer reviewed paper to help you out there.

Did a quick search on J-Stor and found several articles.... Il PM them to you if you want.

sydthebeat wrote: »

not outside of the pale

the vast, vast majority of minis + youths rugby outside of the metro area takes place on saturdays.

In Leinster but varies between other provinces

GAA is starting earlier and and finishing later season on season. Anecdotally i know of some underage gaa teams who are training winter long. There is most definitely a struggle between gaa and rugby for players, with a lot underage gaa players been warned not to play rugby on the off season.

Because they see rugby as a threat to their monopoly of many areas.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Chicken egg situation. Speaking of the GAA, look at Dublin, invested in grassroots county wide, not just a few, already elite, clubs, and now they are looking like an unstoppable juggernaut.

Compare that to Leinster rugby, does all it can to destroy club rugby (in conjunction with the IRFU) as a pipeline for pro players, then they point out its not a pipeline for players and the standards have dropped way off.

Why do you object to a widening of the player pool?

Personally I'd do away with the schools cup, integrate clubs and schools in the one competition, invest equally across the board, make a long term decision that every club and school will have a gym and access to Leinster trained S&C and skills coaches. That is how you grow the game.

Clubs haven't helped themselves either in Rugby. Getting rid of the schools cups should only happen with a replacement in the form of fully meritocratic leagues as the main basis for competition with cups also there.
Integrating clubs and schools into the one competition isn't feasible.

leinstertalk wrote: »

thank god you aren't in charge then because that would be disasterous for rugby in this country in the short term and holds no guarentees it would actually widen the playing base or produce better players.

the way to grow the game is to improve the underage club game, they are trying to do that but it's a slow process but it is happening. leave the schools game alone, it's not broken so don't try to break it.

In the short term there would be issues but in the long term the benefits would be great for the sport. Removing the focus on schools competitions that in 3 provinces have been overly dominated by fee paying schools not accessible to large portions of the population helps the sport grow further.
Improving the underage club game needs to happen but considering you are unhappy with rules about schools being stopped from using talented club players who are enticed to move school etc then are you not ......

a comparison to Dublin GAA is bizarre.. totally different situations with massively different overheads and income streams

The comparison with Dublin GAA isn't bizarre at all. Its a very good comparison in most aspects. Theyre not totally different at all.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.

Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.

Irish Rugby does want to expand but there is inherent conservatism at most levels of the sport so dealing with that is a significant.
Integrating schools players and clubs needs to happen but how do you propose to have schools and clubs in the one competition. That's just not feasible.

Speaking for all the Connacht fans, I'm calling for a shutdown of this thread.

When you produce talented SHs like Marmion Blade and Kerins in 3 years, you can claim it's a non-sense created by unable other provinces

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Irish Rugby does want to expand but there is inherent conservatism at most levels of the sport so dealing with that is a significant.
Integrating schools players and clubs needs to happen but how do you propose to have schools and clubs in the one competition. That's just not feasible.

Its entirely feasible, you have divisions leading to a play off, for the first few years nothing will change, the usual schools will still be playing each other barring the odd shock, but the clubs will be playing a higher standard(thus improving) and the fact one does not need to go to a rugby school to play a high standard of rugby would help the myriad of players who just miss out on SC rugby to play at that level for a club.


There are no downsides aside from the schools monopoly being broken. You are basically just restructuring the season, the end result is the best teams still play each other in a play off and final. The same players will still be playing.

leinstertalk wrote: »

How do you suggest that skerries team trains as often as schools sides such as Rock and Belvo? because those schools side shouldn't be made train less.

It's not going to happen.

Just saying if you are a selector, you pick the best players. And a player of lesser skill who trains 6 days a week with a great coach, is going to be a better player than a player with more skill who only trains once a week with an average coach.

This means, the system allows players of higher ability to slip thru.