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Irish rugby's inability to produce scrumhalves
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »From my experience of coaching and refereeing I really have to disagree with that. Yes it could be true to some extent in some places but not all. Best player is far from simply your outhalf. And order then doesn't go 13/15. It varies a huge amount depending on resources of club/school and varies again depending on the year group/age group0
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CMOTDibbler wrote: »So he's right then.
To say best player 10 etc is just wrong.0 -
The reason why we produce so few Scrum Halfs is because it is a position that demands a few skills that we are not very good at coaching.
In general, coaching is of a poor standard here. The academies are pretty good but only the top 1% of players make it that far. Meaning, there's probably a few potential decent 9's out there in the top 20% that could make it if they got decent coaching but there are more than likely not going to get it.
By the way I remember Guinness had an amazing 9 few years back. Very skilful and very competitive. I reckon this guy had the potential to play at a very high level, don't know what happened to him
In the academy, there is probably only one or two slots available for a nine and that's going to more likely going to go to a Rugby school guy who plays 9. When there could be another schools player who plays 10, 15 but could be a better 9 if he focussed on that position. If you are decent player in schools you tend not play 9.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »The reason why we produce so few Scrum Halfs is because it is a position that demands a few skills that we are not very good at coaching.
In general, coaching is of a poor standard here. The academies are pretty good but only the top 1% of players make it that far. Meaning, there's probably a few potential decent 9's out there in the top 20% that could make it if they got decent coaching but there are more than likely not going to get it.
By the way I remember Guinness had an amazing 9 few years back. Very skilful and very competitive. I reckon this guy had the potential to play at a very high level, don't know what happened to him
In the academy, there is probably only one or two slots available for a nine and that's going to more likely going to go to a Rugby school guy who plays 9. When there could be another schools player who plays 10, 15 but could be a better 9 if he focussed on that position. If you are decent player in schools you tend not play 9.
Two of the best underage 9's in the country this year played fullback(Hugh O'Sullivan/Belvedere) and wing(Paddy Patterson/Blackrock) for their school.0 -
leinstertalk wrote: »Two of the best underage 9's in the country this year played fullback(Hugh O'Sullivan/Belvedere) and wing(Paddy Patterson/Blackrock) for their school.
What I would like to in schools and youths is players play a multiple of positions.
I remember playing adult junior rugby and we needed someone to play 10. The coach (who was very good) just told some Kiwi guy to play there and he was excellent. Another kiwi guy was a small lad and ended up playing second row when we were short and could ruck better than most of the pack.
I hate to say it but the way rugby is played here reminds me of the way some Americans play Soccer. I remember when we were young American Soccer teams used to come over and a few of them stayed with us in our house. So I went off an watch the matches and they got hammered - in every match - kinda 10 - 0.
When we play the Kiwis at any level (except woman's) they hammer us - usually without even trying that hard.
I feel the game here is need of a radical overhaul if we ever want to be taken seriously against the best in the world. Instead, it is run by a conservative Irish mentality. In Dublin, 50% of the people are only interested in it because of a class thing. If the God of poshness decided all the Rugby schools switch to Roller Skating because that's what upper middle class people now do - that's what they would do. Compare the skills level of an average soccer U10 or GAA team to an average Rugby team and there can be up to an Atlantic Ocean of difference.
It's a joke we are so reliant of schools for the development of a sport.
You go to school to learn English, Irish, Maths etc and get ready for college if you are academic. Sport of course is also import. But clubs should drive that not school teachers who study to teach Geography or whatever not rugby,0 -
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The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.
Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.
The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.0 -
leinstertalk wrote: »The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.
Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.
The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.
Who says move away? you conjoin schools and clubs, invest more in underage clubs, raise competition, standards and most importantly widen the playing pool.
Its bizarre, only in Ireland do you have people not wanting the game to grow because of some fear the sacred cow of schools rugby might be hauled in and overtaken. The point of the IRFU is not to sell advertising to the casual fan, the semblance of rugby, its to grow the game.0 -
JPNelsforearm wrote: »Who says move away? you conjoin schools and clubs, invest more in underage clubs, raise competition, standards and most importantly widen the playing pool.
Its bizarre, only in Ireland do you have people not wanting the game to grow because of some fear the sacred cow of schools rugby might be hauled in and overtaken. The point of the IRFU is not to sell advertising to the casual fan, the semblance of rugby, its to grow the game.
that's an ongoing process throughout the country.. there has been huge growth in the game in the past decade.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »The reason why we produce so few Scrum Halfs is because it is a position that demands a few skills that we are not very good at coaching.
In general, coaching is of a poor standard here. The academies are pretty good but only the top 1% of players make it that far. Meaning, there's probably a few potential decent 9's out there in the top 20% that could make it if they got decent coaching but there are more than likely not going to get it.
By the way I remember Guinness had an amazing 9 few years back. Very skilful and very competitive. I reckon this guy had the potential to play at a very high level, don't know what happened to him
In the academy, there is probably only one or two slots available for a nine and that's going to more likely going to go to a Rugby school guy who plays 9. When there could be another schools player who plays 10, 15 but could be a better 9 if he focussed on that position. If you are decent player in schools you tend not play 9.Tim Robbins wrote: »What I would like to in schools and youths is players play a multiple of positions.
I remember playing adult junior rugby and we needed someone to play 10. The coach (who was very good) just told some Kiwi guy to play there and he was excellent. Another kiwi guy was a small lad and ended up playing second row when we were short and could ruck better than most of the pack.
I hate to say it but the way rugby is played here reminds me of the way some Americans play Soccer. I remember when we were young American Soccer teams used to come over and a few of them stayed with us in our house. So I went off an watch the matches and they got hammered - in every match - kinda 10 - 0.
When we play the Kiwis at any level (except woman's) they hammer us - usually without even trying that hard.
I feel the game here is need of a radical overhaul if we ever want to be taken seriously against the best in the world. Instead, it is run by a conservative Irish mentality. In Dublin, 50% of the people are only interested in it because of a class thing. If the God of poshness decided all the Rugby schools switch to Roller Skating because that's what upper middle class people now do - that's what they would do. Compare the skills level of an average soccer U10 or GAA team to an average Rugby team and there can be up to an Atlantic Ocean of difference.
It's a joke we are so reliant of schools for the development of a sport.
You go to school to learn English, Irish, Maths etc and get ready for college if you are academic. Sport of course is also import. But clubs should drive that not school teachers who study to teach Geography or whatever not rugby,
Some of what you say is true but a lot is rubbish. Sport and academia. Its been proven playing sports improves grades...
Its not a joke that we are reliant on schools for the development of a sport. Its a joke that we are reliant on a certain type of schools in many areas. Most of which are out of reach of a lot of people due to the financial costs of attending those schools.leinstertalk wrote: »The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.
Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.
The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.
Irish Rugby needs to change the focus from schools rugby as the primary development area or at least combine schools and clubs better in terms of LTPD and linking kids in rugby playing schools with clubs better and have interaction between both rugby schools and rugby clubs at all ages more often.JPNelsforearm wrote: »Its bizarre, only in Ireland do you have people not wanting the game to grow because of some fear the sacred cow of schools rugby might be hauled in and overtaken. The point of the IRFU is not to sell advertising to the casual fan, the semblance of rugby, its to grow the game.0 -
leinstertalk wrote: »The clubs don't have the rescources or time/access to players.. all the most skilled players come from schools rugby.Underage club players almost always have weaker skill levels to their school counterparts even if they are better athletes.The idea that irish rugby should be moving away from schools rugby as it's primary development area is crazy, nothing suggests that club rugby have the structures, support, etc. to do a better job at developing young rugby players.
We can only hope to try and continously improve underage club rugby while also fighting hard to win the battle for athletes against the GAA which is the biggest barrier to more growth in that area.
As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create more rugby players.
As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.
Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »Sport and academia. Its been proven playing sports improves grades...0
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Tim Robbins wrote: »Agreed.
Don't think so.
Ok. To improve rugby standards then we should just created more private schools?
As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create more rugby players.
As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.
Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.
what highly skilled back has been produced by underage club rugby in the past 10 years?
how many have even played Ireland u20 rugby?
The average underage club player does not have the same skill level as the average underage schools player. Which was reflected this year in the Ireland underage squads.
GAA is a huge problem for rugbys growth, much more so than any other sport.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »Ok. To improve rugby standards then we should just created more private schools?
As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create more rugby players.
But being serious what can be done to help create more players?As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.
Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.
In GAA where im from GAA is mainly mid week with very little club GAA weekends and if so its Sunday more than Saturday0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport.
not outside of the pale
the vast, vast majority of minis + youths rugby outside of the metro area takes place on saturdays.
senior club rugby takes place on sundays, but in the context of this discussion thats immaterial.Tim Robbins wrote: »Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.
GAA is starting earlier and and finishing later season on season. Anecdotally i know of some underage gaa teams who are training winter long. There is most definitely a struggle between gaa and rugby for players, with a lot underage gaa players been warned not to play rugby on the off season.0 -
leinstertalk wrote: »what highly skilled back has been produced by underage club rugby in the past 10 years?
how many have even played Ireland u20 rugby?
The average underage club player does not have the same skill level as the average underage schools player. Which was reflected this year in the Ireland underage squads.
GAA is a huge problem for rugbys growth, much more so than any other sport.
Chicken egg situation. Speaking of the GAA, look at Dublin, invested in grassroots county wide, not just a few, already elite, clubs, and now they are looking like an unstoppable juggernaut.
Compare that to Leinster rugby, does all it can to destroy club rugby (in conjunction with the IRFU) as a pipeline for pro players, then they point out its not a pipeline for players and the standards have dropped way off.
Why do you object to a widening of the player pool?
Personally I'd do away with the schools cup, integrate clubs and schools in the one competition, invest equally across the board, make a long term decision that every club and school will have a gym and access to Leinster trained S&C and skills coaches. That is how you grow the game.0 -
JPNelsforearm wrote: »
Personally I'd do away with the schools cup, integrate clubs and schools in the one competition, invest equally across the board, make a long term decision that every club and school will have a gym and access to Leinster trained S&C and skills coaches. That is how you grow the game.
thank god you aren't in charge then because that would be disasterous for rugby in this country in the short term and holds no guarentees it would actually widen the playing base or produce better players.
the way to grow the game is to improve the underage club game, they are trying to do that but it's a slow process but it is happening. leave the schools game alone, it's not broken so don't try to break it.
leinster rugby trying to destroy the club game? leinster rugby has the healthiest underage club game in the country.. it's started to reguarly churn out academy players when previously it was massively underperforming in that area. senior club rugby has very little to do with the professional game apart from the AIl being a decent arena for young academy players to get games.
a comparison to Dublin GAA is bizarre.. totally different situations with massively different overheads and income streams0 -
How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.
Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »GAA is starting earlier and and finishing later season on season. Anecdotally i know of some underage gaa teams who are training winter long. There is most definitely a struggle between gaa and rugby for players, with a lot underage gaa players been warned not to play rugby on the off season.0
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JPNelsforearm wrote: »How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.
Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.
well for one thing clubs players would be in school when you want them to be playing games.... that would be a significant problem with your proposal0 -
JPNelsforearm wrote: »How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.
Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.
irish rugby has expanded massively in the past decade.0 -
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leinstertalk wrote: »what highly skilled back has been produced by underage club rugby in the past 10 years?how many have even played Ireland u20 rugby?
The last few years Skerries Community School which isn't a rugby school but the youths teams from Skerries RFC who go to the local school just entering the competition have done pretty well and beat a lot - if not hammered - a lot of section B schools like High School etc.
Apparently they only train once a week. I saw them and they all had great technique and skill. Who knows, if there were training 5 times a week, they would be at a Rock / Belvo standard and a few would make Ireland U20's.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »No it isn't and I know you're not being serious...
But being serious what can be done to help create more players?
1. More development officers.
2. More vetting of coaches. You are not allowed coach unless you have done appropriate courses and have been assessed.
3. Payment of refs (and if they are not up to safety, fitness standards they are out).
4. A youths cup that has the same prestige of the SCT and JCT.
5. Restructure the AIL completely. Get rid of division 3.
6. Shorter season for amateur teams - less matches.
7. finances of clubs audited to ensure none of them are doing an Anglo, remortgaging their grounds to play some Kiwis or South Africans to play front row.
8. Banning of the Jackal position at youth levels up to U15. Ruck over the player. If the ball doesn't come back - it's a turnover. Scrum.
9. Tip only until U9.
10. Rugby done by weight for all amateur levels.
11. Innovative scoring systems - more bonus points for tries etc at all amateur levels
12. Banning of kicking of all sorts until U14. Even conversions.
13. Development games to played in four quarters. Giving coaches times to coach players.
14. At dev levels, player only to score twice.
15. Tap penalties - you must pass twice before tackle. Encourage fast passing and stop giving it to big man.
16. Waist down tackles only until U15.
17. An analysis of player injury at all levels. How did it happen? And an effort to ensure that any observable pattern that is causing injury is dealt with.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »Agreed.Don't think so.Ok. To improve rugby standards then we should just created more private schools?
As ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably the only way to create
more rugby players.As for your point about GAA. That is mainly a Saturday sport. Club Rugby is a Sunday sport. Kids can play both until they are 14 - 15 and then make up their mind.Also GAA peaks in the Summer, Rugby off season.Tim Robbins wrote: »I think you would struggle for a decent peer reviewed paper to help you out there.sydthebeat wrote: »not outside of the pale
the vast, vast majority of minis + youths rugby outside of the metro area takes place on saturdays.GAA is starting earlier and and finishing later season on season. Anecdotally i know of some underage gaa teams who are training winter long. There is most definitely a struggle between gaa and rugby for players, with a lot underage gaa players been warned not to play rugby on the off season.JPNelsforearm wrote: »Chicken egg situation. Speaking of the GAA, look at Dublin, invested in grassroots county wide, not just a few, already elite, clubs, and now they are looking like an unstoppable juggernaut.
Compare that to Leinster rugby, does all it can to destroy club rugby (in conjunction with the IRFU) as a pipeline for pro players, then they point out its not a pipeline for players and the standards have dropped way off.
Why do you object to a widening of the player pool?
Personally I'd do away with the schools cup, integrate clubs and schools in the one competition, invest equally across the board, make a long term decision that every club and school will have a gym and access to Leinster trained S&C and skills coaches. That is how you grow the game.
Integrating clubs and schools into the one competition isn't feasible.leinstertalk wrote: »thank god you aren't in charge then because that would be disasterous for rugby in this country in the short term and holds no guarentees it would actually widen the playing base or produce better players.
the way to grow the game is to improve the underage club game, they are trying to do that but it's a slow process but it is happening. leave the schools game alone, it's not broken so don't try to break it.
Improving the underage club game needs to happen but considering you are unhappy with rules about schools being stopped from using talented club players who are enticed to move school etc then are you not ......a comparison to Dublin GAA is bizarre.. totally different situations with massively different overheads and income streamsJPNelsforearm wrote: »How would integrating schools and clubs into the one competition be disastrous? It would still be a meritocracy. the only difference would be players playing against better players thus improving, add in investment and its a win win.
Why do all sports but Irish rugby want to expand? You are either evolving and expanding or you are standing still.
Integrating schools players and clubs needs to happen but how do you propose to have schools and clubs in the one competition. That's just not feasible.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »I have seen some exceptional ones in youths that have been just as skillful as anything I have seen in schools.
That's not always a meritocracy and the schools guys are training 5 / 6 times a week so are always going to be ahead on fitness.
The last few years Skerries Community School which isn't a rugby school but the youths teams from Skerries RFC who go to the local school just entering the competition have done pretty well and beat a lot - if not hammered - a lot of section B schools like High School etc.
Apparently they only train once a week. I saw them and they all had great technique and skill. Who knows, if there were training 5 times a week, they would be at a Rock / Belvo standard and a few would make Ireland U20's.
give me some names?
some of those skerries lads played leinster u18 clubs, one made ireland u19. He was the only player on that team with that talent level and will likely make the academy, thanks to the support leinster rugby has given him since he played Shane Horgan Cup as a 15 year old.
How do you suggest that skerries team trains as often as schools sides such as Rock and Belvo? because those schools side shouldn't be made train less.0 -
Speaking for all the Connacht fans, I'm calling for a shutdown of this thread.
When you produce talented SHs like Marmion Blade and Kerins in 3 years, you can claim it's a non-sense created by unable other provinces0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »A complete change in how the game is run. There would be pain for a few years and long term gain.
1. More development officers.
2. More vetting of coaches. You are not allowed coach unless you have done appropriate courses and have been assessed.
3. Payment of refs (and if they are not up to safety, fitness standards they are out).
4. A youths cup that has the same prestige of the SCT and JCT.
5. Restructure the AIL completely. Get rid of division 3.
1. Where does this funding for more development officers come from. There has been a reduction in development officers in recent years as the funding hasn't been there.
2. Who do you want to do this vetting of coaches. How feasible do you think that is? Its a significant struggle to get people to coach kids as it is without extra levels of bureaucracy to jump through.
3. Where does the payment for referees come from? We get travel expenses from the branch but payment? I actually like that we simply have expenses that cover our costs and we are refereeing simply because there is an enjoyment in doing it and providing a service and that we don't need payment to do it.
4. How do you propose for youths competitions to reach the same level of prestige as schools cups? That just isn't feasible.
5. You clearly don't follow the AIL that much do you? There is 5 divisions of 10 teams. There has been 4 divisons for 6/7 years since division 1 split into 1A/B and then this season saw reshuffle so there is 5 divisions.6. Shorter season for amateur teams - less matches.
7. finances of clubs audited to ensure none of them are doing an Anglo, remortgaging their grounds to play some Kiwis or South Africans to play front row.
8. Banning of the Jackal position at youth levels up to U15. Ruck over the player. If the ball doesn't come back - it's a turnover. Scrum.
9. Tip only until U9.
10. Rugby done by weight for all amateur levels.
Banning the jackal? Why? Its a key skill and should be rewarded.
I disagree about tip only until u9. Its until u7 now and then you have tackling which must be below the waist.
Weight grade rugby at all amateur levels is fantasyland. It just will not and cannot happen.11. Innovative scoring systems - more bonus points for tries etc at all amateur levels
12. Banning of kicking of all sorts until U14. Even conversions.
13. Development games to played in four quarters. Giving coaches times to
coach players.
14. At dev levels, player only to score twice.
When you say development games/levels what exactly are you referring to?15. Tap penalties - you must pass twice before tackle. Encourage fast passing and stop giving it to big man.
16. Waist down tackles only until U15.
17. An analysis of player injury at all levels. How did it happen? And an effort to ensure that any observable pattern that is causing injury is dealt with.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Irish Rugby does want to expand but there is inherent conservatism at most levels of the sport so dealing with that is a significant.
Integrating schools players and clubs needs to happen but how do you propose to have schools and clubs in the one competition. That's just not feasible.
Its entirely feasible, you have divisions leading to a play off, for the first few years nothing will change, the usual schools will still be playing each other barring the odd shock, but the clubs will be playing a higher standard(thus improving) and the fact one does not need to go to a rugby school to play a high standard of rugby would help the myriad of players who just miss out on SC rugby to play at that level for a club.
There are no downsides aside from the schools monopoly being broken. You are basically just restructuring the season, the end result is the best teams still play each other in a play off and final. The same players will still be playing.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Answers....
I disagree about tip only until u9. Its until u7 now and then you have tackling which must be below the waist.
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/files/downloads/Youths_Handbook_14-15.pdf
And I don't care about people having different opinions, we're all opinionated and passionate. But, you should know any of the laws and regulations that are to do with safety.
I am pretty certain this was pointed out to you before.
In England it's U10. In Ireland it's U8. The IRB should decree here. And all Ref's / coaches should know it.
Could you imaging some J5 match being played with full scrums. It's not on.0 -
leinstertalk wrote: »How do you suggest that skerries team trains as often as schools sides such as Rock and Belvo? because those schools side shouldn't be made train less.
Just saying if you are a selector, you pick the best players. And a player of lesser skill who trains 6 days a week with a great coach, is going to be a better player than a player with more skill who only trains once a week with an average coach.
This means, the system allows players of higher ability to slip thru.0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »It's not going to happen.
Just saying if you are a selector, you pick the best players. And a player of lesser skill who trains 6 days a week with a great coach, is going to be a better player than a player with more skill who only trains once a week with an average coach.
This means, the system allows players of higher ability to slip thru.
Schools sharing coaching staff with nearby clubs would help coach club players and develop them to a higher standard. This could be cost neutral if the schools were to co-operate.0
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