When aren't you a Catholic?

Speedwell · 05-04-2016 11:19AM

smash wrote: »

A guy from the census was on the radio last week and said that they didn't have the funds to rework the form to ask if people were atheist, agnostic or even if you're practising your religion so the form will be identical to the 2012 form. It's a total cop out... It's 3/4 extra fields and no doubt they did edit the form to update the year!

No doubt "doesn't have the funds" also means "we can't afford the inevitable legal hassles when people make a fuss".

hinault · 05-04-2016 11:27AM

Even given a range of descriptions on every census form, 84% of respondees at the last census in 2011 took the decision to describe themselves as Roman Catholic.

smash · 05-04-2016 11:31AM

hinault wrote: »

Even given a range of descriptions on every census form, 84% of respondees at the last census in 2011 took the decision to describe themselves as Roman Catholic.

There's not a huge range of descriptions though. The guy I heard being interviewed even said "If your religion isn't listed you can write in the 'other' field but we'd encourage people to choose their closest religion." WTF is that?

finooola · 05-04-2016 11:32AM

beach_walker wrote: »

Well despite what a lot of people think, there is no actual "book" from which you can be removed. There is no central archive in the Vatican. Catholicism teaches that once baptised into the church, you are (and always will be) Catholic. Not the same thing at all but seems to be a big sticking point for some for some reason.

OP for the purposes of the census, I imagine most people could put it together themselves where they stand on the issue. There is no set list of things needed to actively do to consider yourself as such.

I have a letter from them telling me they've taken me off their "books". I applied through that Count Me Out thing years ago. I think they stopped giving out the letters shortly after that. I regard that letter as "true" though. It's more true than saying I'm in something I was signed up for when I was a baby is.

hinault · 05-04-2016 11:37AM

smash wrote: »

There's not a huge range of descriptions though. The guy I heard being interviewed even said "If your religion isn't listed you can write in the 'other' field but we'd encourage people to choose their closest religion." WTF is that?

I never said that there were a huge range of descriptions.

I said that there were a range of descriptions on the census form.

What description do you think is not included but which ought to be included and which would have a demographical planning impact?

Perhaps you need to think about the purpose of a census. The purpose of the census is for the nation to acquire broad statistical data for demographical planning purposes.

lazygal · 05-04-2016 11:40AM

hinault wrote: »

I never said that there were a huge range of descriptions.

I said that there were a range of descriptions on the census form.

What description do you think is not included but which ought to be included and which would have a demographical planning impact?

Perhaps you need to think about the purpose of a census. The purpose of the census is for the nation to acquire broad statistical data for demographical planning purposes.

What is religious affliation information used for in the context of demographical planning purposes?

hinault · 05-04-2016 11:47AM

lazygal wrote: »

What is religious affliation information used for in the context of demographical planning purposes?

Ask the Central Statistics Office.

smash · 05-04-2016 11:49AM

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps you need to think about the purpose of a census. The purpose of the census is for the nation to acquire broad statistical data for demographical planning purposes.

If that was true then there shouldn't be a religion section then...

hinault · 05-04-2016 11:54AM

smash wrote: »

If that was true then there shouldn't be a religion section then...

What evidence do you have to say that the statement is not true?

Why shouldn't there be a religion section?

Whether you like it or not the population identify using a range of description including religious affiliation.

Why are you avoiding the question I asked you earlier?
What description do you think is not included but which ought to be included and which would have a demographical planning impact?

smash · 05-04-2016 11:57AM

hinault wrote: »

What evidence do you have to say that the statement is not true?

Oh, you're one of those... I wont be engaging in conversation with you so bye bye.

lazygal · 05-04-2016 12:00PM

hinault wrote: »

Ask the Central Statistics Office.

So you've no idea then.

hinault · 05-04-2016 12:15PM

smash wrote: »

Oh, you're one of those... I wont be engaging in conversation with you so bye bye.

No hassle.

aidan24326 · 05-04-2016 12:43PM

lawred2 wrote: »

definitely

but then maybe that cohort of non practicing should grow up and be more honest with themselves... they have no religion.

Agreed. Non-practising Catholic is the same thing as not being Catholic at all, the same thing as simply having no religion. You can't be a non-practising Catholic any more than you can be a non practising animal rights activist, a non practising Hindu or a self-proclaimed Arsenal supporter who knows nothing about Arsenal and doesn't even like football.

A person either believes in the central tenets of Catholicism or they don't. You either pray and believe in prayer, believe in heaven and the afterlife, believe in Jesus as the son of god and go to mass or else you don't. If you don't believe in these things and don't actively engage in them you aren't a Catholic and are fooling no-one but yourself by identifying as one. Ticking the box that says 'no religion' is perfectly safe. You won't go to hell

PopePalpatine · 05-04-2016 12:50PM

smash wrote: »

Oh, you're one of those... I wont be engaging in conversation with you so bye bye.

I think you could have guessed he's one of "those" from his signature.

smash · 05-04-2016 12:55PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I think you could have guessed he's one of "those" from his signature.

I didn't even look at it, but now it all makes sense.

cowboyBuilder · 05-04-2016 01:07PM

Ush1 wrote: »

A good one I had was when I was when I was filling out a form for St James' hospital and under religion it had options for 'None' and 'Atheist'.

That's a problem, people think Atheism is a belief system,
It's not andatheism does not assert God doesn't exist.

05-04-2016 01:35PM

hinault wrote: »

Even given a range of descriptions on every census form, 84% of respondees at the last census in 2011 took the decision to describe themselves as Roman Catholic.

I think you mean "given a deeply flawed question in which for no apparent reason 'Roman Catholic' is the top answer, 84% of people got to that point, thought to themselves 'yeah that's about right', and ticked the box"

I can guarantee that if you reversed "No Religion" and "Catholic" in the design of that question you'd suddenly find a surge in godlessness. Anyone who has any experience in survey design knows it.

It is actually a disgrace that the national census, which costs a huge amount of money and supposedly gives us an accurate view of the nation, contains such a poorly designed question which delivers such a misleading answer.

NS77 · 05-04-2016 01:56PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Ticking the box that says 'no religion' is perfectly safe. You won't go to hell

..and neither will it make you any less Irish ;-)

realdanbreen · 05-04-2016 02:54PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Ticking the box that says 'no religion' is perfectly safe. You won't go to hell

But if you thought that you might go to hell doesn't that mean that you have religious beliefs so why would you tick 'no religion' ?:D

Speedwell · 05-04-2016 02:56PM

realdanbreen wrote: »

But if you thought that you might go to hell doesn't that mean that you have religious beliefs so why would you tick 'no religion' ?:D

I'm sure my secular Jewish relatives could figure out some way to guilt themselves into believing they are going to a hell they don't believe exists.

realdanbreen · 05-04-2016 03:06PM

How come so many atheists are scared to declare that they are atheists?

smash · 05-04-2016 03:07PM

realdanbreen wrote: »

How come so many atheists are scared to declare that they are atheists?

Are they? I thought the running joke was "How can you tell who's an atheist at a party? They'll tell you!"

Speedwell · 05-04-2016 03:08PM

realdanbreen wrote: »

How come so many atheists are scared to declare that they are atheists?

Because so many Christians have spread lies about atheists lacking any basis for morality, or that they are Satan worshippers, or that they commit any manner of heinous crimes, or basically that they are in general evil, wicked, and depraved. Because in a majority-religious society, the atheist is discriminated against both openly and under-handedly. Because atheists just want to have a normal life without ignorant godbotherers making every conversation, job interview, business deal about God instead of about the matter at hand.

Rather than use the word "atheist", many atheists use different words such as "secular" or "freethinker" and so forth.

flo8s967qjh0nd · 05-04-2016 03:54PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

A person either believes in the central tenets of Catholicism or they don't. You either pray and believe in prayer, believe in heaven and the afterlife, believe in Jesus as the son of god and go to mass or else you don't. If you don't believe in these things and don't actively engage in them you aren't a Catholic and are fooling no-one but yourself by identifying as one. Ticking the box that says 'no religion' is perfectly safe. You won't go to hell

1. I wish atheists (wonderful and all as they are) would stop attempting to tell everyone else how they should define their religious affiliation and what makes people Catholic and non-Catholic.

2. With a lot of the commentary regarding this question, the suggestion seems to be repeatedly alluded to that the general public are either too stupid or frightened to 'tick the (no) box'. I don't think either is generally the case and it reflects poorly on lots of very reasonable and fair-minded atheists to see the argument being constantly alluded to on their behalf. Give the general public some credit.

flo8s967qjh0nd · 05-04-2016 03:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you mean "given a deeply flawed question in which for no apparent reason 'Roman Catholic' is the top answer, 84% of people got to that point, thought to themselves 'yeah that's about right', and ticked the box"

I stand to be corrected, but the order is presumably dictated by the responses from the previous census. That's how I always read it anyway.

ixoy · 05-04-2016 05:26PM

Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »

1. I wish atheists (wonderful and all as they are) would stop attempting to tell everyone else how they should define their religious affiliation and what makes people Catholic and non-Catholic.

Actually most of the time it's pointing out what the Catholic Church defines Roman Catholicism as. Not what we believe it should be but the people at its very core - the believers.
They could still be Christians of course but not Roman Catholics.

With a lot of the commentary regarding this question, the suggestion seems to be repeatedly alluded to that the general public are either too stupid or frightened to 'tick the (no) box'.

I would definitely believe though that a number of people tick Yes because they were baptised even if they don't believe now. The question doesn't make it clear that it refers to your current belief (or not) and not what you were born into (as the two might not match).

Annasopra · 05-04-2016 05:31PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I didn't say it asked those questions verbatim, but its most certainly asking your opinion on public policy.

Just to answer my own question I put to you that you skipped over, the reason there is a campaign to select no religion is because people don't take it seriously.

This is especially true of a question about religion which is more than anything, opinion. It is NOT a statement of fact.

No

It's absolutely nothing to with your opinion on state public policy. For sure your answer will inform and influence state public policy but it doesn't tell the state in any what you feel should be done in relation to public policy. It just tells the state how you choose to define your religious beliefs. That's all. A factual statement about how you define your religious beliefs. Absolutely nothing else.

Annasopra · 05-04-2016 05:33PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Listening to the ads on the radio about filling in your referendum forms they very specifically mention the census results being used to form public policy

Yes. The census form results will be used to inform, analyse and decide policy but the form is not about each individuals opinion on public policy.

flo8s967qjh0nd · 05-04-2016 05:47PM

ixoy wrote: »

Actually most of the time it's pointing out what the Catholic Church defines Roman Catholicism as. Not what we believe it should be but the people at its very core - the believers.

But I would ask the question on what you're basing this? A lot of the people making these commandments on here seem to be basing them on quite a rigid view of Catholicism. Yes, there are core beliefs but it's OK to have doubts, it's OK to question your Catholicism and even the best Catholic will go against the teachings of the church at some point in the day. We're not all perfect. That's more or less the teaching of the church. We don't all go to mass as often as we should and we don't all behave in a way that would make us proud to be called Catholic but that's just people. Flawed.
I get where people are coming from, saying that if, for example, you don't believe in transubstantiation you're not a Catholic or if you use artificial contraception you're not a Catholic. It might not make you a great Catholic, eligible for sainthood, etc. but it's probably a more honest reflection of what being a Catholic is: trying your best; doubting; doing the wrong thing; asking for help/forgiveness, etc.
Ultimately, it's for each person to describe their faith (or none). If you have no religion, tick the appropriate box. I can't agree with this sentiment more. However, what amounts to, atheists calling for 'bad' Catholics to be drummed out of the church and into the 'no' box is really a bit rich. People can make up their own mind and the Catholic church (for all its numerous faults) is a lot more forgiving of our failings than some of the atheists on here.

Zen65 · 05-04-2016 08:26PM

beach_walker wrote: »

Once you're baptised, you can consider yourself Catholic and the Church always will. Nice resolution to the thread!

You can consider yourself to be anything you wish, but that does not make it so.

When aren't you a Catholic?

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