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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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Comments

  • #2432
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    We all know that the academy structure in all provinces is being completely overhauled, right? Like, this was publicly announced a few weeks ago?


  • #2433
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    former total wrote: »
    We all know that the academy structure in all provinces is being completely overhauled, right? Like, this was publicly announced a few weeks ago?
    Coincidental with the poaching of Stephen Aboud by Conor O'Shea for the Italian job.

    Yes, that's why we're having this discussion (or at least why I'm bringing it up).


  • #2434
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    former total wrote: »
    We all know that the academy structure in all provinces is being completely overhauled, right? Like, this was publicly announced a few weeks ago?

    it was announced that academy contracts were being shortened to 1 year deals instead of three.

    other than that not much is changing in the formal academy, apart from trying to move more leinster lads being moved to other provinces.

    then they are trying to quicken up development at a younger age, starting with elite talent groups at u16 level in order to have players more developed at 20.


  • #2435
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    [/I]1. The academy pages on the respective websites. Currently Leinster have 22 and Munster 23 for example.
    2. It's not a case of which or who would be better. The very fact of their existence points to a failure. How to quantify that is a different matter as I've said before. In any system, you assess quality on the basis of identified failures per selected sample.
    3. There's a system that identifies players after leaving school. There appears to be no safety net (other than the one that caught Darragh Fanning :rolleyes:) that works on a continuing basis to catch the ones that got away.
    4. There are four centres in the current Leinster academy and three out halves (although some would say Steve Crosbie is a centre - which makes five). So that's seven for three positions. This looks very like harvesting for positions that are thin in the senior squad rather than developing promising players wherever they may play.
    I said quality, not high quality. It's the academy's job to develop the quality into something better.

    I wouldn't disagree with you. A few B+I cup matches and a few A appearances seems to be the lot of the academy player. The rest of the time would seem to be playing with their clubs when it suits and from what I hear, the clubs find them to be more trouble than they're worth. Half the time they're not available and the rest of the time it's a lottery as to whether they get played or just benched. It's also the case that they're told what clubs to play for regardless of where they live or work.
    That Leinster and Munster have similar numbers in their academies now doesn't mean Leinster should or need to have more.
    There is constant coverage of players who 'missed the boat' at 18/19/20 and players do get looked at and appraised when older.
    The academies will focus on positions where in time the senior squad will need to replace but the academy system works better for this. The most talented players are picked for the academy and academy players being told what club to play for is correct. The provincial and academy coaches want whats best for the player and so why shouldn't the provinces have control/some control over where they play?
    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Why do we have the same amount of academy players as Munster, when we have a much bigger playing pool to choose from, surely we should be aiming for a thirty-forty man academy.
    That isn't the way things work. If that was the case then Connacht would have a tiny academy and Ulster and Munster would have much less in theirs.
    Who funds all these extra coaches/staff/wages for a bigger academy?
    errlloyd wrote: »
    The next few years are going to tread an awkward enough line, in the long term (20 years) I hope the AIL develops into a pro league that can sweet up even more talent, like the Currie Cup etc.
    I will be president of the IRFU before the AIL can turn into anything like a pro league. The Currie Cup has a higher average attendance than the Pro12. Talking about the AIL in comparison to it is fantasy land.
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I'd like to know a reason why not. The players are ostensibly playing AIL albeit spread out amongst a handful of clubs. In reality they get little enough game time and just how useful is it for them to be playing in fits and starts and without a lot of the players they train with daily?
    That's what the provincial A teams are and should be used for. Leinster and the provinces want and should have the control of players.
    Having provincial teams in a club league is a non runner. You reduce clubs desire for development to some extents as players once at a given level will/may be asked to move to the academy team in the league. How does that help the clubs.
    The provincial academy players need more games together but that's where the A teams come in....
    errlloyd wrote: »
    Was it Glasgow who allocated their pros to clubs in a draft? Should the Leinster academy get drafted into Leinster based ail clubs?
    How many teams do you include in the draft? Is it needed? All bar 4 or 5 of Leinsters academy are with UCD or Lansdowne.
    Connachts are nearly all with Galwegians or Buccaneers. Munsters are more spread out and with Con, Dolphin, Shannon, Garryowen, Young Munster while Ulster are spread between Queens, Ballynahinch, Ballymena, Belfast Harlequins


  • #2436
    stephen_n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    [/I]1. The academy pages on the respective websites. Currently Leinster have 22 and Munster 23 for example.
    2. It's not a case of which or who would be better. The very fact of their existence points to a failure. How to quantify that is a different matter as I've said before. In any system, you assess quality on the basis of identified failures per selected sample.
    3. There's a system that identifies players after leaving school. There appears to be no safety net (other than the one that caught Darragh Fanning :rolleyes:) that works on a continuing basis to catch the ones that got away.
    4. There are four centres in the current Leinster academy and three out halves (although some would say Steve Crosbie is a centre - which makes five). So that's seven for three positions. This looks very like harvesting for positions that are thin in the senior squad rather than developing promising players wherever they may play.
    I said quality, not high quality. It's the academy's job to develop the quality into something better.

    I wouldn't disagree with you. A few B+I cup matches and a few A appearances seems to be the lot of the academy player. The rest of the time would seem to be playing with their clubs when it suits and from what I hear, the clubs find them to be more trouble than they're worth. Half the time they're not available and the rest of the time it's a lottery as to whether they get played or just benched. It's also the case that they're told what clubs to play for regardless of where they live or work.

    So you think that having more players in the academy scraping for those few Pro 12 starts and B&I cup games would work better? Or are you suggesting that we spend more time developing players, so as not the play the players when they develop. Because we need to develop more players for the future?


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  • #2437
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    former total wrote: »
    We all know that the academy structure in all provinces is being completely overhauled, right? Like, this was publicly announced a few weeks ago?

    It won't be completely overhauled. At least not something that the people who seem to think there's a problem with it would accept as an overhaul.


  • #2438
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It won't be completely overhauled. At least not something that the people who seem to think there's a problem with it would accept as an overhaul.

    There is a clear need for some change given the lack of quality players it's producing in the backline.


  • #2439
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,664 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    deja vu


  • #2440
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    That's complacency. There are issues with the system that should be recognised and addressed.
    1. It puts an artificial number on available places.

    There's not an artificial number on available places. There's a real number on available places, defined by the real world. We can't afford to have a 30-player academy.
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    2. Leading from 1, it doesn't nurture all talent
    Our academy doesn't nurture talent? OK, can you show me an example of an academy in Europe that does nurture talent then?
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    3. It's reactive to perceived need rather than talent proactive.

    No, it's absolutely not. We have favoured positions in the past where we've seen a shortage of professionals however recruitment is based on ability and has been since the very beginning.
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    4. It's filled from an age cohort rather than being open to older age groups.

    That sounds like every other professional sports teams academy. I wonder why Manchester United or Barcelona would make such an awful error of judgement!


    There's been a persistent shortage of backs in recent years but the standard of prospects going in (beyond Ringrose) has been limited. I'm hoping that will change this summer. We could do with better management/development of the pre-academy guys. We need better development of coaches at that level and we could do with extending the sub-academy to incorporate guys at a younger age. From my own experience working with guys going through similar programs in England that's the only area where our academy loses out.


  • #2441
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    There's been a persistent shortage of backs in recent years but the standard of prospects going in (beyond Ringrose) has been limited. I'm hoping that will change this summer. We could do with better management/development of the pre-academy guys. We need better development of coaches at that level and we could do with extending the sub-academy to incorporate guys at a younger age. From my own experience working with guys going through similar programs in England that's the only area where our academy loses out.

    Ringrose is the exception. I don't see any backs who could join the academy this summer who are on that level. What genuinely 1st choice backs have been developed by Leinster since 2010?

    In comparison to how well Connacht/Ulster have developed some homegrown backs leinster's record does not look good this decade. Even Munster you could argue have a better record than Leinster.

    I would argue that the standard of prospect going into the academy has been as good if not better than both Munster and Connacht although probably behind Ulster.

    The academy seems to be limited when it comes to developing backs, unless you are a truely elite talent at a young age(Ringrose) you won't get much improvement and skill development while in the Leinster academy.


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  • #2442
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    leinstertalk wrote: »
    Ringrose is the exception. I don't see any backs who could join the academy this summer who are on that level. What genuinely 1st choice backs have been developed by Leinster since 2010?

    In comparison to how well Connacht/Ulster have developed some homegrown backs leinster's record does not look good this decade. Even Munster you could argue have a better record than Leinster.

    There haven't really been any first choice backs developed by Leinster since 2010. Possibly McGrath.

    But who had the natural ability? Sam Coghlan-Murray seemed to have it before he got sick. He was the only really talented guy going in between 2010 and 2013. Adam Byrne as well but he's still coming through. Amongst Ringrose's peers there's slightly more to choose from but none who stand out as clear top level prospects, perhaps Ross Byrne if he gets a run of fitness.


  • #2443
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    There haven't really been any first choice backs developed by Leinster since 2010. Possibly McGrath.

    But who had the natural ability? Sam Coghlan-Murray seemed to have it before he got sick. He was the only really talented guy going in between 2010 and 2013. Adam Byrne as well but he's still coming through. Amongst Ringrose's peers there's slightly more to choose from but none who stand out as clear top level prospects, perhaps Ross Byrne if he gets a run of fitness.

    So there has been more "naturally talented" backs entering the Munster/Ulster/Connacht academies since 2010?

    Personally I disagree and I maintain that leinster have failed to maxmise the talent that enters into the academy setup. There has been 24 backs born since 1990 in the academy... until Ringrose, born in 1995 there hasn't been 1 choice back developed by Leinster. That's a poor record. Maybe Luke McGrath will get there, I really hope he does and personally he'd be my 1st choice scrumhalf right now but is he leinsters?

    List of players:
    Scrumhalf: John Cooney[1990]
    Scrumhalf: Luke McGrath[1993]
    Scrumhalf: Nick McCarthy[1995]
    Scrumhalf: Charlie Rock[1995]
    Outhalf: Cathal Marsh[1992]
    Outhalf/Centre: Steve Crosbie[1993]
    Outhalf: Ross Byrne[1995]
    Outhalf: Joey Carbery[1995]
    Centre: Noel Reid[1990]
    Centre: Colm O'Shea[1991]
    Centre: Brendan Macken[1991]
    Centre: Tom Daly[1993]
    Centre: Tom Farrell[1993]
    Centre: Garry Ringrose[1995]
    Centre: Harrison Brewer[1995]
    Wing/Fullback: Darren Hudson[1990]
    Wing: Andrew Boyle[1991]
    Wing/Fullback: Andrew Conway[1991]
    Wing: Sam Coghlan Murray[1992]
    Wing: Adam Byrne[1994]
    Wing: Ian Fitzpatrick[1994]
    Wing/Fullback: Cian Kelleher[1994]
    Wing/Centre: Rory O'Loughlin[1994]
    Fullback: Billy Dardis[1995]

    The reliance on Kirchner, Nacewa returning, Teo and Boss clearly underlines the weakness in the Leinster rugby talent development system for the best part of half a decade.

    Leinster have thankfully been able to solve the problem of no homegrown 12 with Henshaw, even though he will miss a lot of games and we will likely have to rely on Noel Reid far too much.

    Signing a 3rd choice scrumhalf from NZ underlines the continued problems leinster rugby has had with developing a scrumhalf.

    Who will step up and replace Nacewa and Kirchner? Will they be irish or will leinster again have to go abroad for a back three player? Will that irish player be on the Dave Kearney/Fergus McFadden level or will they be of greater quality?

    Leinster had 22 irish underage international backs this easter between u20, 19 & u18.. how many of them will end up becoming 1st choice for Leinster? 1? maybe 2?


  • #2444
    wise7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭wise7


    leinstertalk wrote: »
    So there has been more "naturally talented" backs entering the Munster/Ulster/Connacht academies since 2010?

    Personally I disagree and I maintain that leinster have failed to maxmise the talent that enters into the academy setup. There has been 24 backs born since 1990 in the academy... until Ringrose, born in 1995 there hasn't been 1 choice back developed by Leinster. That's a poor record. Maybe Luke McGrath will get there, I really hope he does and personally he'd be my 1st choice scrumhalf right now but is he leinsters?

    List of players:
    Scrumhalf: John Cooney[1990]
    Scrumhalf: Luke McGrath[1993]
    Scrumhalf: Nick McCarthy[1995]
    Scrumhalf: Charlie Rock[1995]
    Outhalf: Cathal Marsh[1992]
    Outhalf/Centre: Steve Crosbie[1993]
    Outhalf: Ross Byrne[1995]
    Outhalf: Joey Carbery[1995]
    Centre: Noel Reid[1990]
    Centre: Colm O'Shea[1991]
    Centre: Brendan Macken[1991]
    Centre: Tom Daly[1993]
    Centre: Tom Farrell[1993]
    Centre: Garry Ringrose[1995]
    Centre: Harrison Brewer[1995]
    Wing/Fullback: Darren Hudson[1990]
    Wing: Andrew Boyle[1991]
    Wing/Fullback: Andrew Conway[1991]
    Wing: Sam Coghlan Murray[1992]
    Wing: Adam Byrne[1994]
    Wing: Ian Fitzpatrick[1994]
    Wing/Fullback: Cian Kelleher[1994]
    Wing/Centre: Rory O'Loughlin[1994]
    Fullback: Billy Dardis[1995]

    The reliance on Kirchner, Nacewa returning, Teo and Boss clearly underlines the weakness in the Leinster rugby talent development system for the best part of half a decade.

    Leinster have thankfully been able to solve the problem of no homegrown 12 with Henshaw, even though he will miss a lot of games and we will likely have to rely on Noel Reid far too much.

    Signing a 3rd choice scrumhalf from NZ underlines the continued problems leinster rugby has had with developing a scrumhalf.

    Who will step up and replace Nacewa and Kirchner? Will they be irish or will leinster again have to go abroad for a back three player? Will that irish player be on the Dave Kearney/Fergus McFadden level or will they be of greater quality?

    Leinster had 22 irish underage international backs this easter between u20, 19 & u18.. how many of them will end up becoming 1st choice for Leinster? 1? maybe 2?
    it is an indictment of the system that talent is not allowed to come through. We regularly see real ability on show in the A performances in the B&I but no continuity of throughflow into the senior team. When you look at what leinster does it seems that a decision was made around a particular crop of players 7/8/9 years ago and they were allowed to mature together at the exclusion of blooding younger players as they emerge as talenetd young potentials. Established players in Leinster seem to have a right to contrcat renewal instead of being encouraged to move on and bring their experience to another club and free up the space for younger players to develop here. We never get a blend of ages in the Leinster first selection but seem resigned to let a whole team grow old together. It is wrong that Isa, great servant as he has been to Leinster, is allowed deny an opportunity for cian kelleher and Adam Byrne to use just one example. To have two 36 year old 9's come to the end simultanously is mad as was the case for O'Driscoll and Darcy to do likewise in the centres. The thinking is stagnant and the coaching is sub-standard for what Leinster should be capable of playing to.


  • #2445
    Journeyman_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Journeyman_1


    wise7 wrote: »
    it is an indictment of the system that talent is not allowed to come through. We regularly see real ability on show in the A performances in the B&I but no continuity of throughflow into the senior team. When you look at what leinster does it seems that a decision was made around a particular crop of players 7/8/9 years ago and they were allowed to mature together at the exclusion of blooding younger players as they emerge as talenetd young potentials. Established players in Leinster seem to have a right to contrcat renewal instead of being encouraged to move on and bring their experience to another club and free up the space for younger players to develop here. We never get a blend of ages in the Leinster first selection but seem resigned to let a whole team grow old together. It is wrong that Isa, great servant as he has been to Leinster, is allowed deny an opportunity for cian kelleher and Adam Byrne to use just one example. To have two 36 year old 9's come to the end simultanously is mad as was the case for O'Driscoll and Darcy to do likewise in the centres. The thinking is stagnant and the coaching is sub-standard for what Leinster should be capable of playing to.

    Are we a development club or a club with ambitions to win?

    I have said it before but there is a real mentality at times in Irish rugby to give the young guys a chance just because they are younger. A professional team with high ambition cannot afford to continuously test new players in the hopes that they become a bit better than the guy that has proven his level. There are simply too many guys that can't make the step up. For every Luke Fitz there are multiple Macken/Reid/SCM type players.

    I don't mean to pick on your post specifically here as you make some good points. At the same time, up until this year there were there any realistic challengers to Reddan/Boss? Same with BOD and Darcy, they were performing well up until retirement. Do you think SOB should be encouraged to move on after his next contract (he'll be 29 I think) to free up back-row spaces? Would you have preferred if Sexton didn't come back this year to give Marsh and Byrne more gametime? The younger guys that are good enough will force their way into the team as guys like Ringrose and VdF have shown this year.


  • #2446
    wise7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭wise7


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »
    Are we a development club or a club with ambitions to win?

    I have said it before but there is a real mentality at times in Irish rugby to give the young guys a chance just because they are younger. A professional team with high ambition cannot afford to continuously test new players in the hopes that they become a bit better than the guy that has proven his level. There are simply too many guys that can't make the step up. For every Luke Fitz there are multiple Macken/Reid/SCM type players.

    I don't mean to pick on your post specifically here as you make some good points. At the same time, up until this year there were there any realistic challengers to Reddan/Boss? Same with BOD and Darcy, they were performing well up until retirement. Do you think SOB should be encouraged to move on after his next contract (he'll be 29 I think) to free up back-row spaces? Would you have preferred if Sexton didn't come back this year to give Marsh and Byrne more gametime? The younger guys that are good enough will force their way into the team as guys like Ringrose and VdF have shown this year.
    We shouldn't have allowed it run so so late in ensuring there were younger replacements ready and able especially in relation to allowing both 9's advance to that age together. If it is about winning also, which of course I agree it absolutely is then why give lengthy renewal contracts to players who unfortunately have developed a pattern of spending more time long term injured than available to play? It is about balance in terms of maturity and evolving potential. It is a continuous process and should never be regarded as finished or settled. Striving to be better, to improve and to take risk is the edge that brings success.


  • #2447
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »
    Are we a development club or a club with ambitions to win?

    I have said it before but there is a real mentality at times in Irish rugby to give the young guys a chance just because they are younger. A professional team with high ambition cannot afford to continuously test new players in the hopes that they become a bit better than the guy that has proven his level. There are simply too many guys that can't make the step up. For every Luke Fitz there are multiple Macken/Reid/SCM type players.

    I don't mean to pick on your post specifically here as you make some good points. At the same time, up until this year there were there any realistic challengers to Reddan/Boss? Same with BOD and Darcy, they were performing well up until retirement. Do you think SOB should be encouraged to move on after his next contract (he'll be 29 I think) to free up back-row spaces? Would you have preferred if Sexton didn't come back this year to give Marsh and Byrne more gametime? The younger guys that are good enough will force their way into the team as guys like Ringrose and VdF have shown this year.

    We have to develop our own talent otherwise when the time comes to replace older players we will be left with novices and NIQ's.
    Leinster are currently relying on some pretty average players in the backline and that's a product of leinster rugby not producing players of better quality due to poor talent development at every stage of the development pathway.

    Cooney or McGrath could have challenged earlier if they had been given sufficient opportunities to develop. After all players are only going to develop to a certain point until they have to start getting consistent first time action. Cooney never got that, while it took until this season for McGrath to get it. When both Reddan/Boss are on their last legs.

    Leinster need to identify Sexton's long term replacement and back him with gametime over the coming seasons, and that replacement is not Cathal Marsh. Developing young backs isn't a linear process that continously moves upwards, there will be bumps on the road.

    It's hard to quatify how much damage MOC did, but personally I feel we will be dealing with it for quite awhile longer bar something unforeseen happening. The skill level and ambition the team has shown recently is not encouraging for anyone who wants to see attractive, skillful rugby played at a high pace with accuracy and creativity.


  • #2448
    stephen_n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    leinstertalk wrote: »

    Cooney or McGrath could have challenged earlier if they had been given sufficient opportunities to develop. After all players are only going to develop to a certain point until they have to start getting consistent first time action. Cooney never got that, while it took until this season for McGrath to get it. When both Reddan/Boss are on their last legs.

    When would these opportunities come? What games can we afford to sacrifice for this player development? You speak of the mediocrity in our backline, yet none of the players you are talking about are good enough to force their way past the incumbent mediocre players. What does that say about them?

    The suggestion seems to be, we should sacrifice the immediate and short term in order to possibly gain a future backline. Who will need to be replaced when they do mature, so the cycle will have to continue and we will fail to be competitive.


  • #2449
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    stephen_n wrote: »
    When would these opportunities come? What games can we afford to sacrifice for this player development? You speak of the mediocrity in our backline, yet none of the players you are talking about are good enough to force their way past the incumbent mediocre players. What does that say about them?

    The suggestion seems to be, we should sacrifice the immediate and short term in order to possibly gain a future backline. Who will need to be replaced when they do mature, so the cycle will have to continue and we will fail to be competitive.

    Who said games should be sacrificed? A balance can be struck, a balance MOC certainly was incapable of getting or do you not reconise the absymal job he did in that area while he was in charge?

    Again i've been saying that Leinster rugby has failed to develop quality backs since 2010, which is why we are stuck with so many medicore backs currently both IQ'd and NIQ'd.

    There is no suggestion that we should sacrifice this season, there is a suggestion that we should do more in terms of giving young backs opportunities to play and develop. This season has been an improvement on the previous couple but there is still a large problem in leinster rugby when it comes to back development and giving backs gametime.

    For instance Cathal Marsh is never going to be Sexton's long term replacment, is the time he is getting so he can develop into a pro 12 level outhalf really the best use of those opportunities?

    Could Leinster have given a young back three player more gametime this season than they have so far done?

    Could a young 12 been given gametime over Noel Reid, who isn't ever going to reach a higher level than he currently is at?

    Could a better job have been done in the past in terms of developing the young scrumhalves?


  • #2450
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    Speaking of Leinster backs, Niall Morris leaving Leicester this summer.


  • #2451
    LostArt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭LostArt


    Has he played since the leg/ankle break?


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  • #2452
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    LostArt wrote: »
    Has he played since the leg/ankle break?

    not as far as I'm aware.


  • #2453
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Not a position that we need another player in and certainly not one that isn't going to get into the side ahead of our back ups anyway. We approached him last year and 3 years ago about coming home but it didn't come to anything on either occasion.

    He does have pace which is one raw material we lack but I'd be surprised if he was as quick as he once was at this stage.


  • #2454
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    Buer wrote: »
    Not a position that we need another player in and certainly not one that isn't going to get into the side ahead of our back ups anyway. We approached him last year and 3 years ago about coming home but it didn't come to anything on either occasion.

    He does have pace which is one raw material we lack but I'd be surprised if he was as quick as he once was at this stage.

    Who are the primary backup wings & fullbacks next season?
    Kearney, McFadden & Kirchner?


  • #2455
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    If Niall Morris isn't crocked I'd take him happily.


  • #2456
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,664 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Really the only thing going for Morris is being Irish at this stage, I wouldn't be too bothered if they had a look at him but I think we should be aiming a bit higher, we really need a 9 and 10/12 for next year.

    actually I see he's only 27 I had it in my head he was much older maybe worth a look alright.


  • #2457
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    leinstertalk wrote: »
    Who are the primary backup wings & fullbacks next season?
    Kearney, McFadden & Kirchner?

    Well, if Fitzgerald, Henshaw and Rob Kearney are in the Irish 23, we should still have Nacewa, McFadden, Kirchner and Dave Kearney.

    If there are injuries, I'd prefer the spots to go to the likes of Adam Byrne than bringing Morris back in. We'd be well down the pecking order at that point already.

    He's a solid player but isn't any better than those named above aside from Byrne who is going to get better. He's a smart bloke and turned down a return home twice already knowing he'd be struggling to get a game. The move doesn't make particular sense for either party as he would want a decent salary too. I'd also be particularly reluctant to bring him in after the injuries he has endured.


  • #2458
    stephen_n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    leinstertalk wrote: »
    Who said games should be sacrificed? A balance can be struck, a balance MOC certainly was incapable of getting or do you not reconise the absymal job he did in that area while he was in charge?

    Again i've been saying that Leinster rugby has failed to develop quality backs since 2010, which is why we are stuck with so many medicore backs currently both IQ'd and NIQ'd.

    There is no suggestion that we should sacrifice this season, there is a suggestion that we should do more in terms of giving young backs opportunities to play and develop. This season has been an improvement on the previous couple but there is still a large problem in leinster rugby when it comes to back development and giving backs gametime.

    For instance Cathal Marsh is never going to be Sexton's long term replacment, is the time he is getting so he can develop into a pro 12 level outhalf really the best use of those opportunities?

    Could Leinster have given a young back three player more gametime this season than they have so far done?

    Could a young 12 been given gametime over Noel Reid, who isn't ever going to reach a higher level than he currently is at?

    Could a better job have been done in the past in terms of developing the young scrumhalves?

    We have used 53 players this season, I fail to see how we could do more and maintain any level of competitiveness. Having 2 Irish scrum halves in one province was always going to limit game time for younger guys, it's a trade off for having two that can play at a high level. I don't think MOC did a great job last season but then again his back was to the wall, so the younger players and the future probably weren't the forefront of his concerns. The balance you speak of is the B&I cup and international Windows. Outside of that, any players who are good enough, like VDF and Ringrose will force their way into the team. Though I doubt Ringrose would have if he'd arrived 2 years earlier.


  • #2459
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    If I was Morris I'd go to France. If I was Birch I'd take him.


  • #2460
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    The only thing on my Christmas list right now is a scrum half and a 10 journeyman


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  • #2461
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Am I the only who who thinks Leinster's academy is one of if not the best in Europe? Difficult to think of another producing so many internationals..


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