Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

ronanc1000 · 03-04-2016 12:16AM

Slightly odd question but the item came up in conversation with a guy today.

Why were Leinster playing Challenge cup in 2013 given their previous year result? Was the system different for Europe like now? Did Leinster fail to get out of their group in the HC that year and as a result went into the Challenge Cup? It's a different system now, correct?

whatawaster · 03-04-2016 12:19AM

ronanc1000 wrote: »

Did Leinster fail to get out of their group in the HC that year and as a result went into the Challenge Cup?

That's it.

Second to Clermont in their HC group that year.

ronanc1000 · 03-04-2016 12:21AM

whatawaster wrote: »

That's it.

Second to Clermont in their HC group that year.

Thanks for that!

Also from a Munster fan, well done today on the win lads. A win is a win! Cheers!

Clegg · 03-04-2016 12:48AM

That challenge cup year was such a pisser in a way. Leinster's Heineken Cup run was ruined by injury, but by the start of April the injured players were back and the team was playing the best rugby in Europe. Definitely think we would've won a third Heineken in a row if the team could've stayed fit. Would've been such an event with the final being at Lansdowne.

Ofc there was nothing wrong winning the Challenge Cup at the RDS but still..

Journeyman_1 · 03-04-2016 12:53AM

Clegg wrote: »

That challenge cup year was such a pisser in a way. Leinster's Heineken Cup run was ruined by injury, but by the start of April the injured players were back and the team was playing the best rugby in Europe. Definitely think we would've won a third Heineken in a row if the team could've stayed fit. Would've been such an event with the final being at Lansdowne.

Ofc there was nothing wrong winning the Challenge Cup at the RDS but still..

That was a great day out. Sunny, few nice tries, great atmosphere and a convincing win!

Tox56 · 03-04-2016 10:32AM

Clegg wrote: »

That challenge cup year was such a pisser in a way. Leinster's Heineken Cup run was ruined by injury, but by the start of April the injured players were back and the team was playing the best rugby in Europe. Definitely think we would've won a third Heineken in a row if the team could've stayed fit. Would've been such an event with the final being at Lansdowne.

Ofc there was nothing wrong winning the Challenge Cup at the RDS but still..

It was worse because iirc it was a direct shootout between us and Munster for the last spot, and they got through by thrashing Racing's 3rd 15 while we faced a fired up Exeter away from home. That was definitely a season of what could have been

errlloyd · 03-04-2016 11:08AM

Can't decide whether to rematch the match or not. It seemed pretty dull and frustrating.

Clegg · 04-04-2016 10:06AM

Hopefully this may account for some of Leinster's poor play at the weekend. Sexton explaining that it's hard for the Irish internationals to come back and immediately reacclimatise themselves with how their province plays.

We play differently for our province than we do for our country and that's half the challenge to get back into the system," he explained.
"At times I was shouting Irish plays and Ben Te'o didn't have a clue what I was talking about and Garry (Ringrose) had half an idea because he was in camp training with us.

leinstertalk · 04-04-2016 10:48AM

Clegg wrote: »

Hopefully this may account for some of Leinster's poor play at the weekend. Sexton explaining that it's hard for the Irish internationals to come back and immediately reacclimatise themselves with how their province plays.

How does that account for poor skills?
Such as an inability to do basic things like fix a man and pass to the outside shoulder?
Leinster played some god awful rugby at the weekend.

Thanos · 04-04-2016 11:58AM

leinstertalk wrote: »

How does that account for poor skills?
Such as an inability to do basic things like fix a man and pass to the outside shoulder?
Leinster played some god awful rugby at the weekend.

Are you BrokenHooker in disguise ?

salmocab · 04-04-2016 01:27PM

A poor enough performance on saturday but a win is a win, however I do think in general things have gone the right way this season, hopefully we can finish this season with a league and move on. Im confident enough next year that with less disruption at the start and one or two new players along with a better seeding in the european cup that we can kick on to the next level.

stephen_n · 04-04-2016 02:05PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You could be right, but I'm not convinced for the following reasons:
1. Leinster; who have the highest number of players of all the provinces have an academy size less than or equal to the other provinces. Not sure where that information comes from?
2. There have been a number of quality players who never made the Leinster academy in recent years now plying their trade with other clubs both here and abroad. Of which who would be better than what's already there?
3. I have known of similar quality players dropped from the sub academy in recent years because they were injured for a significant portion of their time there. What's the alternative?
4. The makeup of the academy is often skewed towards a particular perceived need in the senior squad which means places are blocked for other positions and it stretches credulity that these players can be identified just when they're needed. Not sure this is the case, as far as I was aware there are always players coming through the acadamies in all positions

Italics

leinstertalk · 04-04-2016 02:08PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You could be right, but I'm not convinced for the following reasons:
1. Leinster; who have the highest number of players of all the provinces have an academy size less than or equal to the other provinces.
2. There have been a number of quality players who never made the Leinster academy in recent years now plying their trade with other clubs both here and abroad.
3. I have known of similar quality players dropped from the sub academy in recent years because they were injured for a significant portion of their time there.
4. The makeup of the academy is often skewed towards a particular perceived need in the senior squad which means places are blocked for other positions and it stretches credulity that these players can be identified just when they're needed.

where are all these high quality players leinster are overlooking?

i think the bigger argument is that the underage sections are under performing and not producing players with high enough base level of skills.

then the academy doesn't seem to improve players skills much, just bulkd them up.

Number 137 · 04-04-2016 02:29PM

salmocab wrote: »

A poor enough performance on saturday but a win is a win, however I do think in general things have gone the right way this season, hopefully we can finish this season with a league and move on. Im confident enough next year that with less disruption at the start and one or two new players along with a better seeding in the european cup that we can kick on to the next level.

I certainly think a pre season with all the international players available will be huge. It definitely seems to have benefited the players who were involved in pre season this season.

I love the word season.

dub_skav · 04-04-2016 02:31PM

Number 137 wrote: »

I certainly think a pre season with all the international players available will be huge. It definitely seems to have benefited the players who were involved in pre season this season.

I love the word season.

Stainalert · 04-04-2016 05:22PM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

So, if reports coming out of England are to be believed Leinster are effectively developing talent for one of Ireland's main rivals. This is outrageous. Surely the IRFU have to step in?

With regard to the debate over the academy and Leinster producing talented backs my own feeling is that post-Schmidt Leinster have been reluctant to give young backs sufficient gametime. Kelleher's involvements have been severely restricted, and while Adam Byrne has been involved to a good degree, Tom Daly hasn't seen a minute's action. Would Peter Nelson, Rory Scholes, Sam Arnold and Jacob Stockdale have got as much gametime this season if they played for Leinster instead of Ulster? I think the answer to that is probably 'no'. Leinster need to be more bullish in backing their young outside backs

Spot on

CMOTDibbler · 04-04-2016 07:10PM

stephen_n wrote: »

Italics
1. Not sure where that information comes from?
2. Of which who would be better than what's already there?
3. What's the alternative?
4. Not sure this is the case, as far as I was aware there are always players coming through the acadamies in all positions

1. The academy pages on the respective websites. Currently Leinster have 22 and Munster 23 for example.
2. It's not a case of which or who would be better. The very fact of their existence points to a failure. How to quantify that is a different matter as I've said before. In any system, you assess quality on the basis of identified failures per selected sample.
3. There's a system that identifies players after leaving school. There appears to be no safety net (other than the one that caught Darragh Fanning :rolleyes:) that works on a continuing basis to catch the ones that got away.
4. There are four centres in the current Leinster academy and three out halves (although some would say Steve Crosbie is a centre - which makes five). So that's seven for three positions. This looks very like harvesting for positions that are thin in the senior squad rather than developing promising players wherever they may play.

leinstertalk wrote: »

where are all these high quality players leinster are overlooking?

I said quality, not high quality. It's the academy's job to develop the quality into something better.

leinstertalk wrote: »

i think the bigger argument is that the underage sections are under performing and not producing players with high enough base level of skills.

then the academy doesn't seem to improve players skills much, just bulkd them up.

I wouldn't disagree with you. A few B+I cup matches and a few A appearances seems to be the lot of the academy player. The rest of the time would seem to be playing with their clubs when it suits and from what I hear, the clubs find them to be more trouble than they're worth. Half the time they're not available and the rest of the time it's a lottery as to whether they get played or just benched. It's also the case that they're told what clubs to play for regardless of where they live or work.

JPNelsforearm · 04-04-2016 09:57PM

Why do we have the same amount of academy players as Munster, when we have a much bigger playing pool to choose from, surely we should be aiming for a thirty-forty man academy.

neelia11 · 04-04-2016 10:00PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Why do we have the same amount of academy players as Munster, when we have a much bigger playing pool to choose from, surely we should be aiming for a thirty-forty man academy.

Time, Money, availability of matches perhaps?

CMOTDibbler · 04-04-2016 10:27PM

neelia11 wrote: »

Time, Money, availability of matches perhaps?

All of which are surmountable obstacles. Not easily done but not impossible either. Invest in the academy and you don't have to spend as much money bringing in players to fill gaps for one.

Use the academy as an AIL team, then you have matches. Maybe not as big as A matches or B+I cup but it's not either/or. You then get the benefit of playing these guys together iinstead of scattering them around a half dozen clubs.

Just a couple of ideas.

neelia11 · 04-04-2016 10:31PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

All of which are surmountable obstacles. Not easily done but not impossible either. Invest in the academy and you don't have to spend as much money bringing in players to fill gaps for one.

Use the academy as an AIL team, then you have matches. Maybe not as big as A matches or B+I cup but it's not either/or. You then get the benefit of playing these guys together iinstead of scattering them around a half dozen clubs.

Just a couple of ideas.

Is putting provincial A/B/development sides in the AIL a viable option?

irishbucsfan · 04-04-2016 10:32PM

They're not going to expand the academy in an era where there is massive pressure on wages for first team players. Our squad is about big enough after including sub-academy guys and it'll stay that way.

errlloyd · 04-04-2016 10:34PM

The next few years are going to tread an awkward enough line, in the long term (20 years) I hope the AIL develops into a pro league that can sweet up even more talent, like the Currie Cup etc.

CMOTDibbler · 04-04-2016 10:47PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They're not going to expand the academy in an era where there is massive pressure on wages for first team players. Our squad is about big enough after including sub-academy guys and it'll stay that way.

Until it needs to change yesterday. About the same as every other development. :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler · 04-04-2016 10:59PM

neelia11 wrote: »

Is putting provincial A/B/development sides in the AIL a viable option?

I'd like to know a reason why not. The players are ostensibly playing AIL albeit spread out amongst a handful of clubs. In reality they get little enough game time and just how useful is it for them to be playing in fits and starts and without a lot of the players they train with daily?

errlloyd · 04-04-2016 11:02PM

Was it Glasgow who allocated their pros to clubs in a draft? Should the Leinster academy get drafted into Leinster based ail clubs?

irishbucsfan · 04-04-2016 11:11PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Until it needs to change yesterday. About the same as every other development. :rolleyes:

It absolutely doesn't need to change. Our academy is still one of the best in Europe. It's in a completely different league to smaller European clubs and they're continuously pushing the standard.

CMOTDibbler · 05-04-2016 06:57AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It absolutely doesn't need to change. Our academy is still one of the best in Europe. It's in a completely different league to smaller European clubs and they're continuously pushing the standard.

That's complacency. There are issues with the system that should be recognised and addressed.
1. It puts an artificial number on available places.
2. Leading from 1, it doesn't nurture all talent
3. It's reactive to perceived need rather than talent proactive.
4. It's filled from an age cohort rather than being open to older age groups.

leinstertalk · 05-04-2016 09:06AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It absolutely doesn't need to change. Our academy is still one of the best in Europe. It's in a completely different league to smaller European clubs and they're continuously pushing the standard.

the academy is very good at producing backrows & props.

Struggled to produce players of sufficient quality at every other position in the past 5 years despite having a lot more underage internationals than any other province.

wise7 · 05-04-2016 10:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It absolutely doesn't need to change. Our academy is still one of the best in Europe. It's in a completely different league to smaller European clubs and they're continuously pushing the standard.

O yes it most certainly does need to change. There have been a few very good ideas posted here on this topic. The Academy has become a 'hoarder' of talent which is not being developed and kept under wraps almost 'in case they are needed' more so than developing the players to realise the obvious talent thaye were perceived to have in the first place. The standard of coaching with the senior team is so appalling that Franno is right in his recent article where he says Leinster have no identity. Connacht and Glasgow lead the way in how the game should be played and we are a sorry sight in comparison.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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