Do you support multiculturalism in Europe?(No news dumps)

Shenshen · 03-04-2016 03:56PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

On paper, it sounds great, people all colours of the rainbow holding hands. In practice however, it's very hard to implement. Humans have a natural fear of the "other". Anywhere you have large groups of immigrants you will find they have congregated together for the mutual support of people the same as them. People don't move en masse to another country because they love the people and the culture of that country, they move for more cash money and/or safety.

Integration is a two way street: both native and newcomer need to make a serious sustained effort. But what tends to happen is everyone just goes on doing their day to day thing and you end up with two or more communities sharing time and space but only interacting where necessary and living parallel lives.

Governments tend to get blamed for failed multicultural policies but in fairness its very hard to legislate for something which is kind of contrary to our evolutionary tendency and in any case, is there any template or an example for a perfectly executed multicultural policy? Who got it right?

I suspect we will have to find a way to get it right. People are moving, they always have and always will. Right now, more people than ever are on the move, some of them because they want to but most of them because they have to. Asking if anyone is for or against that is a bit like asking if anyone is for the earth turning or against it.
We can't change that, we can only try and find good ways to manage it.

muddypaws · 03-04-2016 04:05PM

BlibBlab wrote: »

No, but part of what makes a culture unique is the people it came from. Going to Japan say would probably be quiet different if it was populated by Europeans, Africans and Arabs who migrated there. It's not even that I'm totally against it, I just find the idea of a lot of the uniqueness disappearing a bit sad.
Looking at the opening ceremony of the Olympics is fascinating seeing the different people around the world and then competing with each other, it'd be less so if everyone was just basically the same.

Go back and reread your opening post, the bit about looking around and being able to recognise people of Irish/Gaelic descent, a Russian person. That has nothing whatsoever to do with multiculturalism

enricoh · 03-04-2016 04:33PM

I don't see much benefit in it to ireland. 60% of the people on fingals social housing list are foreign. These people are big drain on the country, a free gaff n dole for life.in Australia , us, Canada etc if yet not an asset to the country yer visa is not renewed.
Irish people are to become a minority in Ireland by 2050 so I don't see that 60% going down anytime soon. (Or my taxes, that pay for it!)

tonycascarino · 03-04-2016 04:44PM

Don't support it. Multiculturalism has gone far enough.

A Primal Nut · 03-04-2016 04:46PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The question is phrased badly. How can you be against multiculturalism in a continent that has multiple cultures?

It's pretty obvious what the OP meant.

dav3 · 03-04-2016 04:52PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It's pretty obvious what the OP meant.

It's far from obvious. The fact that so many people have interpreted the question it in different ways is evidence that it's nonsensical.

suicide_circus · 03-04-2016 05:05PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I suspect we will have to find a way to get it right. People are moving, they always have and always will. Right now, more people than ever are on the move, some of them because they want to but most of them because they have to. Asking if anyone is for or against that is a bit like asking if anyone is for the earth turning or against it.
We can't change that, we can only try and find good ways to manage it.

Oh I agree there is a certain inevitability about it but for the life of me I can't conceive in abstract of any way of managing it to the satisfaction of all concerned. It will take some fundamental shifts in the human psyche.

Mena · 03-04-2016 05:07PM

enricoh wrote: »

I don't see much benefit in it to ireland. 60% of the people on fingals social housing list are foreign. These people are big drain on the country, a free gaff n dole for life.in Australia , us, Canada etc if yet not an asset to the country yer visa is not renewed.
Irish people are to become a minority in Ireland by 2050 so I don't see that 60% going down anytime soon. (Or my taxes, that pay for it!)

You're comparing asylum seekers in Ireland with economic migrants in Australia/Canada etc. Little disingenuous. The Irish being a minirity by xx is just poor math.

Shenshen · 03-04-2016 05:18PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Oh I agree there is a certain inevitability about it but for the life of me I can't conceive in abstract of any way of managing it to the satisfaction of all concerned. It will take some fundamental shifts in the human psyche.

You'd be surprised how quickly people will start differenciating between "our foreigners" and "foreign foreigners". I noticed that a few weeks ago when talking to my gran in Germany, a prime case of early-onset geriatric racist.
Nobody is ever going to be entirely satified, mind you. When my grandmother started being racist, she had to make do with hating "Prussians" - anybody from further up north who had moved south. It was only later she got Italians to be racist at, and later Turks. Now all these are classed as "local", and she's firmly sticking to her prejudices when it comes to anybody new arriving.

armaghlad · 03-04-2016 05:25PM

I'm kinda surprised at the results of the poll (ok, no wait... this is boards.ie I'm not really) are people here really that insular? I've had a quick skim of this thread and it's worrying the number of idiotic posts highlighting Islam to justify their ignorance.

BlibBlab · 03-04-2016 05:30PM

armaghlad wrote: »

I'm kinda surprised at the results of the poll (ok, no wait... this is boards.ie I'm not really) are people here really that insular? I've had a quick skim of this thread and it's worrying the number of idiotic posts highlighting Islam to justify their ignorance.

So am I, but I thought boards tends to have a younger and thus more liberal attitude than the rest of the population. I thought it'd 80% in favour, way off

andekwarhola · 03-04-2016 05:43PM

You have to look at what is meant by multiculturalism.

If it's the age old process where immigrants integrate into a host culture, but add their own cultural imprint to it, making it more fluid and less homogenous while abiding by the basic mores of the host culture (as regards secularism, tolerance, social norms and democracy): cool.

If multiculturalism is some blinkered, Guardian Reader, soft focus Benetton Advert wet dream where criticism of the integrating culture is off bounds (under pain of being labelled racist or bigoted) and social and religious ghettoization/isolationism is tolerated: not cool.

armaghlad · 03-04-2016 05:46PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

You have to look at what is meant by multiculturalism. If it's the process where immigrants integrate into a host culture, add their own cultural input to it and make it less homogenous, but accept the basic mores of the host culture (as regards secularism, tolerance, social norms and democracy): cool.

If it's some blinkered, Liberal Benrtton Advert wet dream where criticism of the integrating culture is off bounds and social and religious ghettoization and isolationism is tolerated: not cool.

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

enricoh · 03-04-2016 05:48PM

Mena wrote: »

You're comparing asylum seekers in Ireland with economic migrants in Australia/Canada etc. Little disingenuous. The Irish being a minirity by xx is just poor math.

Asylum seekers are part of fingals social housing list ?- news to me. I thought they were in direct provision centres. 90% of them are deemed to be economic migrants all the same.
Irish a minority by 2050 came from the president of dcu, I'm sure a reasonably intelligent man.

Eugene Norman · 03-04-2016 05:54PM

armaghlad wrote: »

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

How do you know the hair style of any poster here?

dav3 · 03-04-2016 05:58PM

enricoh wrote: »

Irish a minority by 2050 came from the president of dcu, I'm sure a reasonably intelligent man.

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...

andekwarhola · 03-04-2016 06:00PM

armaghlad wrote: »

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

Personally I couldn't care less about the race aspect. Whether or not some idealized racial identity is being diluted. To me that 'dilution' is natural.

Same as I don't oppose the gradual evolution of 'Culture' from static, homologous standpoints.

What I'm pointing out is the use of multiculturalism as a liberal debating point to tolerate elective religious/social ghettoization in secular, democratic countries.

I grew up in England and when I was a kid it was the norm that the waves of Irish, Carribeans, Asians and Africans came to England to work, and influenced the culture and ethnicity of England but generally integrated successfully into the country (without throwing away the general aspects of their faith and culture).

That to me is multiculturalism, not hate preachers being allowed to proselytize and advocate subsocieties from within virtual religious cocoons in a secular democracy.

Fr_Dougal · 03-04-2016 06:02PM

I'm not racist, but...

enricoh · 03-04-2016 06:11PM

dav3 wrote: »

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...

You believe it has zero credibility - your opinion.
Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

03-04-2016 06:12PM

dav3 wrote: »

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...

Eugene Norman · 03-04-2016 06:22PM

Because some extrapolations are bogus doesn't make all extrapolations bogus.
If your arguing from an animated TV show you don't have much of an argument.

dav3 · 03-04-2016 06:23PM

enricoh wrote: »

You believe it has zero credibility - your opinion.
Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

It is my opinion and the opinion of many others. Unidentified and unpublished research from a different country would have zero credibility in many people's eyes.

enricoh wrote: »

Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

I have no idea what you're talking about, I never commented on housing lists. But send me a link to the figures and I'll take a look at it if you like.

Dyr · 03-04-2016 06:34PM

Europe has always been full of fordiners as far as I can tell

"Insular" is based on the latin for Island for a reason. Something our continental chums don't get is Ireland and the UK do not have the same underlying problem that they do with borders and don't require their solutions. I also expect it's something they're fairly envious of, mainly because panzers don't float

We should always reserve the right to roll up the drawbridge, so to speak, because we can. The euros can't... so their bellyaching about it is disingenuous.

Cultural diversity, its grand. Add's variety, good for peoples outlook. Multiculturalism is an awful idea though. Everywhere is the same, everywhere is nowhere, a peoples republic of nothing. An idea that only Marxists and Neo Liberals could warm too.

Anything Peter Sutherland is enthusiastic about is a bad idea

fatknacker · 03-04-2016 06:38PM

I don't know why people think our culture will be washed away, if anything it flourishes when we have people to show it off to and to redefine our own identity. No one in Ireland gave a hoot in the 1950's when it surely was at its most stagnant, but for the few alcoholic writers. And they only existed because it was so friggin bleak and there was sweet f.a else to do but drink and scribe.

03-04-2016 06:44PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Because some extrapolations are bogus doesn't make all extrapolations bogus.
If your arguing from an animated TV show you don't have much of an argument.

Well I can't have an argument about it cause the guy never even identified the research (I wonder why), the cartoon covers the danger of extrapolations though

Iwasfrozen · 03-04-2016 07:40PM

I voted yes, globalization is inevitable progress for the human race. In a few hundred years we'll look back on ethno-nationalism as being quaint but backward.

Eugene Norman · 03-04-2016 07:46PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I voted yes, globalization is inevitable progress for the human race. In a few hundred years we'll look back on ethno-nationalism as being quaint but backward.

I think we'll miss the nation state as a fount of stability.

homerjay2005 · 03-04-2016 08:20PM

vibrant people that are willing to integrate and adapt somewhere to our way of life, people that can offer europe and indeed ireland their skills and help our economy - YES.

families from warn torn countries who desperately need help - YES.

people who offer this country nothing - NO.

Iwasfrozen · 03-04-2016 08:23PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I think we'll miss the nation state as a fount of stability.

The nation state creates instability, look how many wars are rooted in nationalism or the belief that a particular tribe should occupy a particular land.
The whole concept of the nation state is artificial and holds back globalization anyway.

Eugene Norman · 03-04-2016 08:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The nation state creates instability, look how many wars are rooted in nationalism or the belief that a particular tribe should occupy a particular land.
The whole concept of the nation state is artificial and holds back globalization anyway.

What is natural about globalisation (or even good about it?).

Don't confuse imperialism (the claim to other people's lands) with the self determination of the nation state. The former is anti nation state and the cause of most wars. The latter is accepted by the UN as the way states should be structured.

Where nationalism leads to instability it is because of different competing nationalities with valid historical claims to the same area, often caused by the movements of people during imperialism or colonialism - Northern Ireland and Israel.

Unstable states with seperatist movements are also multi national, by definition

Nor is nationalism dying off. The number of nations increased over the 20C, and even the UK is closer to splitting up than it ever was. Then there's the anti EU feeling across Europe.

It's in fact every other form of state except the nation state that is artificial.

Do you support multiculturalism in Europe?(No news dumps)

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