Do you support multiculturalism in Europe?(No news dumps)

BlibBlab

I used to, or at least I did in the sense that I never really questioned it. I do find it a bit sad though that our culture and ethnicities will probably slowly disappear. Looking at the Ireland-Scotland match a few weeks back, you could pick out some people that you'd identify as looking Gaelic/Celtic, kind of like you could probably pick out a Russian with a reasonable degree of accuracy but not as distinct.

Places like North America are already big cultural melting pots. I find the idea sad that going to say Greece will just be like going to any other part of Europe, with unique ethnic groups and cultures replaced with multi-ethnic groups wherever you go. Probably won't happen fully in my lifetime unless science keeps me alive, but still it's not hard to see a time in the future when large parts of the world are basically a copy of America and the different races disappear into one mixed race.

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this, but interested to get others thoughts.

thattequilagirl

BlibBlab wrote: »

I used to, or at least I did in the sense that I never really questioned it. I do find it a bit sad though that our culture and ethnicities will probably slowly disappear. Looking at the Ireland-Scotland match a few weeks back, you could pick out some people that you'd identify as looking Gaelic/Celtic, kind of like you could probably pick out a Russian with a reasonable degree of accuracy but not as distinct.

Places like North America are already big cultural melting pots. I find the idea sad that going to say Greece will just be like going to any other part of Europe, with unique ethnic groups and cultures replaced with multi-ethnic groups wherever you go. Probably won't happen fully in my lifetime unless science keeps me alive, but still it's not hard to see a time in the future when large parts of the world are basically a copy of America and the different races disappear into one mixed race.

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this, but interested to get others thoughts.

The question is phrased badly. How can you be against multiculturalism in a continent that has multiple cultures?

humberklog

I'm all for multiculturalism once the cultures involved also embrace multiculturalism.

MilesMorales1

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The question is phrased badly. How can you be against multiculturalism in a continent that has multiple cultures?

I think the idea is we have a 'common european' or Western culture, if that makes sense. Not something I agree with mind.

I dunno, nowt wrong with diversity long as everyone agrees to assimilate and there's no trying to tear down anyone else's cultures. Britain for example has been a hodgepotch of cultures since the end of the war when so many people from the empire were allowed to enter the country. That has undeniably enriched British culture.

Liberosis

America never really had a distinct culture, apart from the natives. IMO increased cultural diversity is good and helps eliminate racism to an extent.

I'd support inter-culturism more than multi-culturalism.

sheesh

there is no ethnic or cultural European they are a fairly diverse group in and of its self similarly there is no ethnic Irish race there is some british some spanish some french we share some genetic markers with the people living with the west european and and north african coast.

we are a discrete culture though.

What I do agree is there does seem to be a change taking place.

Panthro

I think we should all stay in our homes and watch re-runs of 'Allo 'Allo.

ThisRegard

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The question is phrased badly. How can you be against multiculturalism in a continent that has multiple cultures?

Absolutely. Stupid question, Europe, by the fact alone that it's made up of several countries, is multi cultural by its nature.

AnonoBoy

I work in a yoghurt factory so multi-culturalism is a big no-no.

dav3

I've read, or tried to read the OP a number of times. I still have no idea what they are talking about and absolutely no idea why some people are voting no. As stated above, Europe is, and always has been, multicultural.

The OP is suggesting that Irish people should never travel to other countries to live or work, as we would pollute that country's culture with our own. Quite bizarre.

MilesMorales1

I mean, where do yous think curry comes from? Or chinese take away? Or sushi? Or pizza? These aren't British or Irish inventions we suddenly created, they come from... different cultures!

osarusan

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

I mean, where do yous think curry comes from? Or chinese take away? Or sushi? Or pizza? These aren't British or Irish inventions we suddenly created, they come from... different cultures!

Watch from 1.18 to 1.40

iDave

Integration and assimilation are better than simply parallel cultures tolerating each others existence.

The Backwards Man

Most people don't know what the word means. Including the majority of those who implement or oppose 'multicultural policies'.

You might as well ask 'Do You Support The Use Of Aesthetics In Film?'

muddypaws

BlibBlab wrote: »

I used to, or at least I did in the sense that I never really questioned it. I do find it a bit sad though that our culture and ethnicities will probably slowly disappear. Looking at the Ireland-Scotland match a few weeks back, you could pick out some people that you'd identify as looking Gaelic/Celtic, kind of like you could probably pick out a Russian with a reasonable degree of accuracy but not as distinct.

Places like North America are already big cultural melting pots. I find the idea sad that going to say Greece will just be like going to any other part of Europe, with unique ethnic groups and cultures replaced with multi-ethnic groups wherever you go. Probably won't happen fully in my lifetime unless science keeps me alive, but still it's not hard to see a time in the future when large parts of the world are basically a copy of America and the different races disappear into one mixed race.

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this, but interested to get others thoughts.

I'm confused, multiculturalism has nothing to do with physical appearance. Are you saying that you would prefer that red headed people only ever have children with other red headed people, people with blue eyes only ever have children with another person who can replicate that? No freckles, then you can't have an Irish child?

511

No, I'm against it. I used to think multiculturalism worked until about 2009/2010, but then I actually starting reading into it and realised it's an unmitigated disaster. Some cultures are compatible, but others don't click at all - Islam being the most prominent example. The boundaries of the Islamic world are rife with conflict; be in China, India, Russia, Europe and Africa. Islam wasn't created to be tolerant of other cultures, it was created to be mono-cultural.

As long as religion exists, there's going to be divisions between humans, but that's only half the battle. There's many ethnic cultures that don't get along, like pederasty in Afghanistan, child grooming in Pakistan, gang rape in India and Bangladesh - all that isn't compatible with Europe or any civilized country.

I'd prefer to assimilate migrants into our culture by taking in immigrants on demand to fill job vacancies and if they don't want assimilate, they can fúck off to the other side of the wall we should be building in eastern Europe to keep out the illegal immigrants.

super_furry

Sure. Mostly for the craic.

dav3

511 wrote: »

No, I'm against it.

How can you be against multiculturalism in Europe? It's illogical.

511 wrote: »

I'd prefer to assimilate migrants into our culture by taking in immigrants on demand to fill job vacancies and if they don't want assimilate, they can fúck off to the other side of the wall we should be building in eastern Europe to keep out the illegal immigrants.

I think people have misinterpreted the question. Perhaps people are confusing the word multiculturalism which has always existed in Europe, with immigration?

Eugene Norman

dav3 wrote: »

How can you be against multiculturalism in Europe? It's illogical.



I think people have misinterpreted the question. Perhaps people are confusing the word multiculturalism which has always existed in Europe, with immigration?

This is just silly pedantry. The term multi culturalism (as commonly used) means that the individual countries in Europe should embrace multi culturalism not that Europe isn't multi cultural to begin with.

MacauDragon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux48XEH8TTY

Turtyturd

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Most people don't know what the word means. Including the majority of those who implement or oppose 'multicultural policies'.

You might as well ask 'Do You Support The Use Of Aesthetics In Film?'

Spot on, it's a fairly expansive concept, unfortunately most people only have a narrow understanding of it.

BlibBlab

muddypaws wrote: »

I'm confused, multiculturalism has nothing to do with physical appearance. Are you saying that you would prefer that red headed people only ever have children with other red headed people, people with blue eyes only ever have children with another person who can replicate that? No freckles, then you can't have an Irish child?

No, but part of what makes a culture unique is the people it came from. Going to Japan say would probably be quiet different if it was populated by Europeans, Africans and Arabs who migrated there. It's not even that I'm totally against it, I just find the idea of a lot of the uniqueness disappearing a bit sad.
Looking at the opening ceremony of the Olympics is fascinating seeing the different people around the world and then competing with each other, it'd be less so if everyone was just basically the same.

The Randy Riverbeast

I dont think everyone being separated into their own groups is a good idea as it can lead to an us vs them situation but I also don't expect people to abandon everything about their past culture.

Cultures are something which evolve over time and I see nothing to be gained from preventing it and stagnating culture. I wonder how many people who are against multiculturalism will still get a kebab or Chinese take away or buy something in an asian shop.

arybvtcw0eolkf

humberklog wrote: »

I'm all for multiculturalism once the cultures involved also embrace multiculturalism.

More or less the same here.

I voted YES but I don't believe it works very well.

riffmongous

Interesting to compare the posts versus the poll, it seems like a lot of people are against but unable to articulate why

Personally I love my Irish pub, heuriger, kvass, cevapcici and dürüm. People who don't reciprocate and embrace the local culture not so much

suicide_circus

On paper, it sounds great, people all colours of the rainbow holding hands. In practice however, it's very hard to implement. Humans have a natural fear of the "other". Anywhere you have large groups of immigrants you will find they have congregated together for the mutual support of people the same as them. People don't move en masse to another country because they love the people and the culture of that country, they move for more cash money and/or safety.

Integration is a two way street: both native and newcomer need to make a serious sustained effort. But what tends to happen is everyone just goes on doing their day to day thing and you end up with two or more communities sharing time and space but only interacting where necessary and living parallel lives.

Governments tend to get blamed for failed multicultural policies but in fairness its very hard to legislate for something which is kind of contrary to our evolutionary tendency and in any case, is there any template or an example for a perfectly executed multicultural policy? Who got it right?

BlibBlab

suicide_circus wrote: »

On paper, it sounds great, people all colours of the rainbow holding hands. In practice however, it's very hard to implement. Humans have a natural fear of the "other". Anywhere you have large groups of immigrants you will find they have congregated together for the mutual support of people the same as them. People don't move en masse to another country because they love the people and the culture of that country, they move for more cash money and/or safety.

Integration is a two way street: both native and newcomer need to make a serious sustained effort. But what tends to happen is everyone just goes on doing their day to day thing and you end up with two or more communities sharing time and space but only interacting where necessary and living parallel lives.

Governments tend to get blamed for failed multicultural policies but in fairness its very hard to legislate for something which is kind of contrary to our evolutionary tendency and in any case, is there any template or an example for a perfectly executed multicultural policy? Who got it right?

Canada maybe? Although their treatment of and attitude towards natives isn't great

Shenshen

I'm struggling to understand what being against multi-culturalism would entail... cultural isolationism? That doesn't really sound appealing to me.

Autonomous Cowherd

For a small while there, back a few months ago when there was a whipped up furore about immigrant rapists, I experienced an extraordinary sense of cognitive dissonance when I began to feel a creeping, irrational fear and mistrust towards people I had never even met. I felt I could have begun to group human beings into classes of ''us'' and ''them''. For a short while I wondered what malevolence had taken over my consciousness. And then I caught myself on.

Violent misogynists of any creed, colour, culture, gender, religion I cannot support. Ordinary peaceful people in general whatever their creed, colour, culture, gender, religion I totally support.

The simple force of numbers is against racial/cultural separation. We live on a finite planet in ever-increasing numbers and space dictates that we will intermingle increasingly. It may mean that homogeneous cultures will die out just as languages have become extinct. It seems like a natural thing that will happen. We will all become beautifully golden

FURET

The OP clearly thinks that Europeans share a common culture. Bar a few details, we do. If you disagree, spend a few years in China, India, or the Middle East and you'll realize how ridiculous it is stressing the differences between Europeans rather than the similarities.

I do not support parallel cultures (Islamic especially) becoming established in Europe. I like the food though.

Shenshen

suicide_circus wrote: »

On paper, it sounds great, people all colours of the rainbow holding hands. In practice however, it's very hard to implement. Humans have a natural fear of the "other". Anywhere you have large groups of immigrants you will find they have congregated together for the mutual support of people the same as them. People don't move en masse to another country because they love the people and the culture of that country, they move for more cash money and/or safety.

Integration is a two way street: both native and newcomer need to make a serious sustained effort. But what tends to happen is everyone just goes on doing their day to day thing and you end up with two or more communities sharing time and space but only interacting where necessary and living parallel lives.

Governments tend to get blamed for failed multicultural policies but in fairness its very hard to legislate for something which is kind of contrary to our evolutionary tendency and in any case, is there any template or an example for a perfectly executed multicultural policy? Who got it right?

I suspect we will have to find a way to get it right. People are moving, they always have and always will. Right now, more people than ever are on the move, some of them because they want to but most of them because they have to. Asking if anyone is for or against that is a bit like asking if anyone is for the earth turning or against it.
We can't change that, we can only try and find good ways to manage it.

muddypaws

BlibBlab wrote: »

No, but part of what makes a culture unique is the people it came from. Going to Japan say would probably be quiet different if it was populated by Europeans, Africans and Arabs who migrated there. It's not even that I'm totally against it, I just find the idea of a lot of the uniqueness disappearing a bit sad.
Looking at the opening ceremony of the Olympics is fascinating seeing the different people around the world and then competing with each other, it'd be less so if everyone was just basically the same.

Go back and reread your opening post, the bit about looking around and being able to recognise people of Irish/Gaelic descent, a Russian person. That has nothing whatsoever to do with multiculturalism

enricoh

I don't see much benefit in it to ireland. 60% of the people on fingals social housing list are foreign. These people are big drain on the country, a free gaff n dole for life.in Australia , us, Canada etc if yet not an asset to the country yer visa is not renewed.
Irish people are to become a minority in Ireland by 2050 so I don't see that 60% going down anytime soon. (Or my taxes, that pay for it!)

tonycascarino

Don't support it. Multiculturalism has gone far enough.

A Primal Nut

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The question is phrased badly. How can you be against multiculturalism in a continent that has multiple cultures?

It's pretty obvious what the OP meant.

dav3

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It's pretty obvious what the OP meant.

It's far from obvious. The fact that so many people have interpreted the question it in different ways is evidence that it's nonsensical.

suicide_circus

Shenshen wrote: »

I suspect we will have to find a way to get it right. People are moving, they always have and always will. Right now, more people than ever are on the move, some of them because they want to but most of them because they have to. Asking if anyone is for or against that is a bit like asking if anyone is for the earth turning or against it.
We can't change that, we can only try and find good ways to manage it.

Oh I agree there is a certain inevitability about it but for the life of me I can't conceive in abstract of any way of managing it to the satisfaction of all concerned. It will take some fundamental shifts in the human psyche.

Mena

enricoh wrote: »

I don't see much benefit in it to ireland. 60% of the people on fingals social housing list are foreign. These people are big drain on the country, a free gaff n dole for life.in Australia , us, Canada etc if yet not an asset to the country yer visa is not renewed.
Irish people are to become a minority in Ireland by 2050 so I don't see that 60% going down anytime soon. (Or my taxes, that pay for it!)

You're comparing asylum seekers in Ireland with economic migrants in Australia/Canada etc. Little disingenuous. The Irish being a minirity by xx is just poor math.

Shenshen

suicide_circus wrote: »

Oh I agree there is a certain inevitability about it but for the life of me I can't conceive in abstract of any way of managing it to the satisfaction of all concerned. It will take some fundamental shifts in the human psyche.

You'd be surprised how quickly people will start differenciating between "our foreigners" and "foreign foreigners". I noticed that a few weeks ago when talking to my gran in Germany, a prime case of early-onset geriatric racist.
Nobody is ever going to be entirely satified, mind you. When my grandmother started being racist, she had to make do with hating "Prussians" - anybody from further up north who had moved south. It was only later she got Italians to be racist at, and later Turks. Now all these are classed as "local", and she's firmly sticking to her prejudices when it comes to anybody new arriving.

armaghlad

I'm kinda surprised at the results of the poll (ok, no wait... this is boards.ie I'm not really) are people here really that insular? I've had a quick skim of this thread and it's worrying the number of idiotic posts highlighting Islam to justify their ignorance.

BlibBlab

armaghlad wrote: »

I'm kinda surprised at the results of the poll (ok, no wait... this is boards.ie I'm not really) are people here really that insular? I've had a quick skim of this thread and it's worrying the number of idiotic posts highlighting Islam to justify their ignorance.

So am I, but I thought boards tends to have a younger and thus more liberal attitude than the rest of the population. I thought it'd 80% in favour, way off

andekwarhola

You have to look at what is meant by multiculturalism.

If it's the age old process where immigrants integrate into a host culture, but add their own cultural imprint to it, making it more fluid and less homogenous while abiding by the basic mores of the host culture (as regards secularism, tolerance, social norms and democracy): cool.

If multiculturalism is some blinkered, Guardian Reader, soft focus Benetton Advert wet dream where criticism of the integrating culture is off bounds (under pain of being labelled racist or bigoted) and social and religious ghettoization/isolationism is tolerated: not cool.

armaghlad

andekwarhola wrote: »

You have to look at what is meant by multiculturalism. If it's the process where immigrants integrate into a host culture, add their own cultural input to it and make it less homogenous, but accept the basic mores of the host culture (as regards secularism, tolerance, social norms and democracy): cool.

If it's some blinkered, Liberal Benrtton Advert wet dream where criticism of the integrating culture is off bounds and social and religious ghettoization and isolationism is tolerated: not cool.

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

enricoh

Mena wrote: »

You're comparing asylum seekers in Ireland with economic migrants in Australia/Canada etc. Little disingenuous. The Irish being a minirity by xx is just poor math.

Asylum seekers are part of fingals social housing list ?- news to me. I thought they were in direct provision centres. 90% of them are deemed to be economic migrants all the same.
Irish a minority by 2050 came from the president of dcu, I'm sure a reasonably intelligent man.

Eugene Norman

armaghlad wrote: »

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

How do you know the hair style of any poster here?

dav3

enricoh wrote: »

Irish a minority by 2050 came from the president of dcu, I'm sure a reasonably intelligent man.

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...

andekwarhola

armaghlad wrote: »

Well looking at the op it's like something right wing skin heads come out with to justify their racism.

Personally I couldn't care less about the race aspect. Whether or not some idealized racial identity is being diluted. To me that 'dilution' is natural.

Same as I don't oppose the gradual evolution of 'Culture' from static, homologous standpoints.

What I'm pointing out is the use of multiculturalism as a liberal debating point to tolerate elective religious/social ghettoization in secular, democratic countries.

I grew up in England and when I was a kid it was the norm that the waves of Irish, Carribeans, Asians and Africans came to England to work, and influenced the culture and ethnicity of England but generally integrated successfully into the country (without throwing away the general aspects of their faith and culture).

That to me is multiculturalism, not hate preachers being allowed to proselytize and advocate subsocieties from within virtual religious cocoons in a secular democracy.

Fr_Dougal

I'm not racist, but...

enricoh

dav3 wrote: »

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...

You believe it has zero credibility - your opinion.
Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

riffmongous

dav3 wrote: »

I'm not sure what relevance his intelligence has with regard to those quotes.

His "theory" was based on unpublished uk-based research which he would not identify. It has absolutely zero credibility and the only people who seem to constantly quote it are, well, you know...