Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

1…7677798182…332

Comments

  • #2342
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    So Munster, Connacht & Ulster have more raw talent? Sorry but I fail to accept that.

    Leinster have done a poor job at identifying and developing talent, it's as simple as that.

    Not more raw talent but maybe over the last few years its just they had better raw talent in the backs whilst Leinster happened to have more up front.
    You saying something is simple as that doesn't make it so.


  • #2343
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    neelia11 wrote: »
    it means nothing of the sort. It just shows there is a cycle of how things work and they are not running side by side. The Munster side that won two HEC's pretty much all left/retired by the time Leinster won their third one in 2012, but that side went onto win the Amlin/Pro12 a year later too.

    No academy in any of the 4 provinces is ever under/over performing. They will always go through cycles of producing players. In an ideal world there would be players in every position always coming through across the academies but sometimes it just doesnt work that way. In 5-6 year from now Leinster might have another crop of backs akin to what they had in the early noughties but struggle for backrows and Ulster might run out of centres and be overloaded with quality young backrows.

    well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing.

    it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.


  • #2344
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    salmocab wrote: »
    Not more raw talent but maybe over the last few years its just they had better raw talent in the backs whilst Leinster happened to have more up front.
    You saying something is simple as that doesn't make it so.

    let me be clear, you think Connacht have had better raw talent in their backs than leinster in the past few seasons?

    and it's not in fact that they are better coached and developed by the connacht academy and coaching staff?


  • #2345
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing.

    it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.

    What can you do if the raw materials aren't there in the first place


  • #2346
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing.

    it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.

    Yeah they help develop talent, not create it out of thin air. If you think we have had Sexton/Fitzgerald/Kearney level talents in the system in recent years that were neglected/ignored/not developed properly I'd like to know who these people are. Leinster have produced a number of international backs over the last few years, just none that are really outstanding, and that has everything to do with the fact there was no top class international talents in the system, not the failure of the academy


  • Advertisement
  • #2347
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What can you do if the raw materials aren't there in the first place

    in your opinion they aren't there, odd that leinster has more underae internationals than the rest of the provinces combined, so much so that leinster excess goes elsewhere..

    but i guess leinster aren't producing talented players. :rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #2348
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    he actually played 12 for the senior team..

    the first appearance he came on for R Kearney, and Madigan moved to 15 with Crosbie at 12.

    the second appearance he replaced Teo, with Reid moving to 13 and Crosbie at 12.

    he didn't play 10 for the senior team and he rarely has ever played there for the A's

    Not sure what this "jury-riggeed selection" stuff is about.
    He was in the 22 shirt both times. Both times he had to come on in a different position to normal because of injuries. He replaced Te'o because Te'o broke his arm in the 19th minute. That was an unexpected occurrence and necessitated Crosbie coming off the bench to replace him as Mick McGrath is not a centre.

    Jury-rigged means makeshift, ad-hoc etc. The A sides are more about getting players on the pitch as a rehabilitation exercise for returning from injury players or getting 'a look' at academy squad players.

    The academy doesn't even have a full squad never mind a player in each position. As I said before (and you jumped it up by two) the academy currently has four centres. How do you get all them on the pitch in their preferred positions?


  • #2349
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Yeah they help develop talent, not create it out of thin air. If you think we have had Sexton/Fitzgerald/Kearney level talents in the system in recent years that were neglected/ignored/not developed properly I'd like to know who these people are. Leinster have produced a number of international backs over the last few years, just none that are really outstanding, and that has everything to do with the fact there was no top class international talents in the system, not the failure of the academy

    you can call them international backs, it doesn't mean they are actually any good... how noel reid got capped ill never know and players like madigan, kearney and mcfadden have been lucky to have schmidt.

    Leinster have failed utterly in developing backs, now you want to blame the underage setup for not giving the academy talented enough players despite leinster dominating underage rugby in ireland.


  • #2350
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    let me be clear, you think Connacht have had better raw talent in their backs than leinster in the past few seasons?

    and it's not in fact that they are better coached and developed by the connacht academy and coaching staff?

    Well Id have to check which backs in their first squad came through through their academy recently and compare them to the recent graduates from Leinsters and Id say its not much actual difference. Im going to be honest and say Im not going to do that because all answers will be subjective and you will continue to argue with everyone regardless.


  • #2351
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Yeah they help develop talent, not create it out of thin air. If you think we have had Sexton/Fitzgerald/Kearney level talents in the system in recent years that were neglected/ignored/not developed properly I'd like to know who these people are. Leinster have produced a number of international backs over the last few years, just none that are really outstanding, and that has everything to do with the fact there was no top class international talents in the system, not the failure of the academy
    I'd have to disagree there. Firstly there's no way to 'prove' that the academy is missing talent because for many players it's the only outlet they have. Sure there are instances of players ploughing a lonely furrow to get picked up elsewhere, but their very existence speaks to a failure somewhere in the system.

    Eoghan Masterson in Connacht is a perfect example of this. James Hart is another.


  • Advertisement
  • #2352
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    He was in the 22 shirt both times. Both times he had to come on in a different position to normal because of injuries. He replaced Te'o because Te'o broke his arm in the 19th minute. That was an unexpected occurrence and necessitated Crosbie coming off the bench to replace him as Mick McGrath is not a centre.

    Jury-rigged means makeshift, ad-hoc etc. The A sides are more about getting players on the pitch as a rehabilitation exercise for returning from injury players or getting 'a look' at academy squad players.

    The academy doesn't even have a full squad never mind a player in each position. As I said before (and you jumped it up by two) the academy currently has four centres. How do you get all them on the pitch in their preferred positions?

    Did he play 10? no.

    has he played 12 for the A team while Marsh and Byrne have played 10? yes.

    He is viewed by Leinster as a 12. This undeniable, unless you wish to ignore the reality of the situation.

    I have no idea where you are going with this whole the academy squad stuff.. it's called the A team and games are regularly played by them and in those games Crosbie has played 12 when he has started. why would he if he was viewed as an outhalf? oh wait he wouldn't.


  • #2353
    leakyboots
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Are there many guys outside the Munster 23 who would be good, homegrown but not available.

    For Lein there's Furlong, Moore, Tracey, SOB, Conan, Luke Fitz, RK, Ried

    I make it Peter O'Mahoney, Dave Foley, Hurley (not great, would like to see him released), Ronan O'Mahoney (he's knocking on the door of a starting wing berth opposite Earls with Conway and Sweetnam). EDIT: BJ Botha too, big loss in the scrum. Chisholm it out too, hence no 2nd row cover

    Leinster are missing more experience at the moment through injury with RK, Luke Fitz, SOB and Conan to a degree. Also, Furlong is starting.


  • #2354
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    salmocab wrote: »
    Well Id have to check which backs in their first squad came through through their academy recently and compare them to the recent graduates from Leinsters and Id say its not much actual difference. Im going to be honest and say Im not going to do that because all answers will be subjective and you will continue to argue with everyone regardless.

    and you will keep trying to pretend that leinster are doing a good job when it comes to developing backs.


  • #2355
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    then he has played 12 and 13, he has never played 10 for Leinster senior team.

    Sure, but both of his caps were games Jimmy Gopperth played the full 80 in. Gopperth was a handy 10, but I don't think he ever played any other position.

    Crosbie played 10 for the Ireland U20s at the world cup, has played 10 for Leinster A and played 10 for Gerards in their superb cup run (as a fifth year I believe). He's a handy backline second pivot also capable of playing 12.

    I can't believe you're sitting here deciding some lads career for him based on 2 caps he has a replacements, one of which (3 quarters of his gametime) you couldn't even remember what position he was playing.


  • #2356
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Sure, but both of his caps were games Jimmy Gopperth played the full 80 in. Gopperth was a handy 10, but I don't think he ever played any other position.

    Crosbie played 10 for the Ireland U20s at the world cup, has played 10 for Leinster A and played 10 for Gerards in their superb cup run (as a fifth year I believe). He's a handy backline second pivot also capable of playing 12.

    I can't believe you're sitting here deciding some lads career for him based on 2 caps he has a replacements, one of which (3 quarters of his gametime) you couldn't even remember what position he was playing.

    he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

    plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.


  • #2357
    neelia11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭neelia11


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing.

    it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.

    for years leinster struggled to produce forwards but had a backline to die for. The cycle has changed. Now there is two forwards in each position [except lock but with Toner, Maccer there and Molony & James Ryan emerging its not so bad]. There was very few top class forwards in the late 90s/early noughties produced, Mal O'Kelly was probably the only truly top class forward produced. A few others were a level or two down from him.

    Look at Man Utd in the 90s, the class of 92. They havent produced anything like that in the intervening years. Its a cycle. Rugby competes with soccer, gaelic football & hurling for players. The academies are there to develop talent, but the talent has to be there to be developed. Some players will have higher ceilings then others.


  • #2358
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

    plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.

    Well that's just wrong. Here he is starting ahead of Carberry.

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/14519.php


  • #2359
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    and you will keep trying to pretend that leinster are doing a good job when it comes to developing backs.

    No in fact I've said that Leinster haven't developed enough backs recently but your too busy arguing with everybody.


  • #2360
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    Did he play 10? no.

    has he played 12 for the A team while Marsh and Byrne have played 10? yes.

    He is viewed by Leinster as a 12. This undeniable, unless you wish to ignore the reality of the situation.

    I have no idea where you are going with this whole the academy squad stuff.. it's called the A team and games are regularly played by them and in those games Crosbie has played 12 when he has started. why would he if he was viewed as an outhalf? oh wait he wouldn't.
    He is not viewed by Leinster as a 12. He is listed on their website as a ten, an inconvenient truth you dismiss as 'the website is always wrong'. He played 10 for Ireland U20 and at underage for Leinster and in school.

    But you think six appearnces for a makeshift A team is indicative of his preferred position and not the one he's trained for and played in almost all his life. :rolleyes:

    You can't agree with anyone on this board. Whatever somebody says, even if it partially agrees with you is taken as some sort of contrarian viewpoint that you must argue against virulently.


  • #2361
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I'd have to disagree there. Firstly there's no way to 'prove' that the academy is missing talent because for many players it's the only outlet they have. Sure there are instances of players ploughing a lonely furrow to get picked up elsewhere, but their very existence speaks to a failure somewhere in the system.

    Eoghan Masterson in Connacht is a perfect example of this. James Hart is another.

    Hart isn't even remotely close to being top international quality though, he wouldn't even be international quality full stop really. There are a lot of decent players like Matt Healy, fionn Carr and guys like mick McGrath and even fanning who dropped out of the system, shine at lower levels and can be useful in a pro squad up to a certain level, but they're not close to true top international quality and I don't think a player with that ability is likely to slip through the system at all


  • Advertisement
  • #2362
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Well that's just wrong. Here he is starting ahead of Carberry.

    http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/14519.php

    one of the few times he has played 10.. this year alone he has played more 12 than 10.. even more so in previous years.


  • #2363
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

    plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.
    Well that's clear since he was going to be going to Edinburgh before his shoulder injury put a stop to it.


  • #2364
    sheep?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 824 ✭✭✭sheep?


    This whole ignore feature is really undermined by the quote feature. :(


  • #2365
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    He is not viewed by Leinster as a 12. He is listed on their website as a ten, an inconvenient truth you dismiss as 'the website is always wrong'. He played 10 for Ireland U20 and at underage for Leinster and in school.

    But you think six appearnces for a makeshift A team is indicative of his preferred position and not the one he's trained for and played in almost all his life. :rolleyes:

    You can't agree with anyone on this board. Whatever somebody says, even if it partially agrees with you is taken as some sort of contrarian viewpoint that you must argue against virulently.

    you can keep calling the a team makeshift, but for the majority of his leinster career that is where he has played for Leinster and he has played 12 in the vast majority of those games. When he played for the senior team he played centre also. But hey what are facts.

    have you never heard of a player moving position? Noel Reid played 10 all the way up until he didn't anymore because he wasn't a professional level 10, much like Crosbie.


  • #2366
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Hart isn't even remotely close to being top international quality though, he wouldn't even be international quality full stop really. There are a lot of decent players like Matt Healy, fionn Carr and guys like mick McGrath and even fanning who dropped out of the system, shine at lower levels and can be useful in a pro squad up to a certain level, but they're not close to true top international quality and I don't think a player with that ability is likely to slip through the system at all
    We weren't talking about international standard though. Maybe that's an extension of being a top class provincial player but if the first step is missed what chances the next ones?

    THe point is that players have fallen through the cracks. Which means that there are cracks to fall through and the next obvious question is how many?


  • #2367
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    Well that's clear since he was going to be going to Edinburgh before his shoulder injury put a stop to it.

    so you admit he isn't good enough for leinster at 10, okay great thanks for playing.

    another academy player they failed to develop, he never had the potential to be a top class 10, they tried to convert him to 12 and failed.


  • #2368
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    you can keep calling the a team makeshift, but for the majority of his leinster career that is where he has played for Leinster and he has played 12 in the vast majority of those games. When he played for the senior team he played centre also. But hey what are facts.

    have you never heard of a player moving position? Noel Reid played 10 all the way up until he didn't anymore because he wasn't a professional level 10, much like Crosbie.
    You don't have to take your socks off to count the number of that 'vast majority' :rolleyes:


  • #2369
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    You don't have to take your socks off to count the number of that 'vast majority' :rolleyes:

    has he played more games for the Leinster A team at 10 or 12?

    Thanks for playing.


  • #2370
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    so you admit he isn't good enough for leinster at 10, okay great thanks for playing.

    another academy player they failed to develop, he never had the potential to be a top class 10, they tried to convert him to 12 and failed.
    That's a different question. I don't think he was good enough at either position tbh. He might make a creeer for himself elsewhere but he never struck me as being up to the standard at underage level in any case. He might have been a late bloomer but that didn't pan out.

    But that's not the discussion. He is still a ten. As a twelve he's a bit more meh than he is at ten. He can kick from hand extremely well, is an average goal kicker and has a very good pass. He could do a job for the likes of Edinburgh or maybe a championship team. At ten.


  • Advertisement
  • #2371
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    has he played more games for the Leinster A team at 10 or 12?

    Thanks for playing.
    Leinster A is irrelevant. I pointed out why. You ignored it. I'm the only one 'playing' :rolleyes:


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement