brokenhooker wrote: » So Munster, Connacht & Ulster have more raw talent? Sorry but I fail to accept that. Leinster have done a poor job at identifying and developing talent, it's as simple as that.
neelia11 wrote: » it means nothing of the sort. It just shows there is a cycle of how things work and they are not running side by side. The Munster side that won two HEC's pretty much all left/retired by the time Leinster won their third one in 2012, but that side went onto win the Amlin/Pro12 a year later too.No academy in any of the 4 provinces is ever under/over performing. They will always go through cycles of producing players. In an ideal world there would be players in every position always coming through across the academies but sometimes it just doesnt work that way. In 5-6 year from now Leinster might have another crop of backs akin to what they had in the early noughties but struggle for backrows and Ulster might run out of centres and be overloaded with quality young backrows.
salmocab wrote: » Not more raw talent but maybe over the last few years its just they had better raw talent in the backs whilst Leinster happened to have more up front. You saying something is simple as that doesn't make it so.
brokenhooker wrote: » well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing. it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.
Deleted User wrote: » What can you do if the raw materials aren't there in the first place
brokenhooker wrote: » he actually played 12 for the senior team.. the first appearance he came on for R Kearney, and Madigan moved to 15 with Crosbie at 12. the second appearance he replaced Teo, with Reid moving to 13 and Crosbie at 12. he didn't play 10 for the senior team and he rarely has ever played there for the A's Not sure what this "jury-riggeed selection" stuff is about.
Tox56 wrote: » Yeah they help develop talent, not create it out of thin air. If you think we have had Sexton/Fitzgerald/Kearney level talents in the system in recent years that were neglected/ignored/not developed properly I'd like to know who these people are. Leinster have produced a number of international backs over the last few years, just none that are really outstanding, and that has everything to do with the fact there was no top class international talents in the system, not the failure of the academy
brokenhooker wrote: » let me be clear, you think Connacht have had better raw talent in their backs than leinster in the past few seasons? and it's not in fact that they are better coached and developed by the connacht academy and coaching staff?
CMOTDibbler wrote: » He was in the 22 shirt both times. Both times he had to come on in a different position to normal because of injuries. He replaced Te'o because Te'o broke his arm in the 19th minute. That was an unexpected occurrence and necessitated Crosbie coming off the bench to replace him as Mick McGrath is not a centre. Jury-rigged means makeshift, ad-hoc etc. The A sides are more about getting players on the pitch as a rehabilitation exercise for returning from injury players or getting 'a look' at academy squad players. The academy doesn't even have a full squad never mind a player in each position. As I said before (and you jumped it up by two) the academy currently has four centres. How do you get all them on the pitch in their preferred positions?
CatFromHue wrote: » Are there many guys outside the Munster 23 who would be good, homegrown but not available. For Lein there's Furlong, Moore, Tracey, SOB, Conan, Luke Fitz, RK, Ried
salmocab wrote: » Well Id have to check which backs in their first squad came through through their academy recently and compare them to the recent graduates from Leinsters and Id say its not much actual difference. Im going to be honest and say Im not going to do that because all answers will be subjective and you will continue to argue with everyone regardless.
brokenhooker wrote: » then he has played 12 and 13, he has never played 10 for Leinster senior team.
errlloyd wrote: » Sure, but both of his caps were games Jimmy Gopperth played the full 80 in. Gopperth was a handy 10, but I don't think he ever played any other position. Crosbie played 10 for the Ireland U20s at the world cup, has played 10 for Leinster A and played 10 for Gerards in their superb cup run (as a fifth year I believe). He's a handy backline second pivot also capable of playing 12. I can't believe you're sitting here deciding some lads career for him based on 2 caps he has a replacements, one of which (3 quarters of his gametime) you couldn't even remember what position he was playing.
brokenhooker wrote: » he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant. plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.
brokenhooker wrote: » and you will keep trying to pretend that leinster are doing a good job when it comes to developing backs.
brokenhooker wrote: » Did he play 10? no. has he played 12 for the A team while Marsh and Byrne have played 10? yes. He is viewed by Leinster as a 12. This undeniable, unless you wish to ignore the reality of the situation. I have no idea where you are going with this whole the academy squad stuff.. it's called the A team and games are regularly played by them and in those games Crosbie has played 12 when he has started. why would he if he was viewed as an outhalf? oh wait he wouldn't.
CMOTDibbler wrote: » I'd have to disagree there. Firstly there's no way to 'prove' that the academy is missing talent because for many players it's the only outlet they have. Sure there are instances of players ploughing a lonely furrow to get picked up elsewhere, but their very existence speaks to a failure somewhere in the system. Eoghan Masterson in Connacht is a perfect example of this. James Hart is another.
errlloyd wrote: » Well that's just wrong. Here he is starting ahead of Carberry.http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/14519.php
CMOTDibbler wrote: » He is not viewed by Leinster as a 12. He is listed on their website as a ten, an inconvenient truth you dismiss as 'the website is always wrong'. He played 10 for Ireland U20 and at underage for Leinster and in school. But you think six appearnces for a makeshift A team is indicative of his preferred position and not the one he's trained for and played in almost all his life. :rolleyes: You can't agree with anyone on this board. Whatever somebody says, even if it partially agrees with you is taken as some sort of contrarian viewpoint that you must argue against virulently.
Tox56 wrote: » Hart isn't even remotely close to being top international quality though, he wouldn't even be international quality full stop really. There are a lot of decent players like Matt Healy, fionn Carr and guys like mick McGrath and even fanning who dropped out of the system, shine at lower levels and can be useful in a pro squad up to a certain level, but they're not close to true top international quality and I don't think a player with that ability is likely to slip through the system at all
CMOTDibbler wrote: » Well that's clear since he was going to be going to Edinburgh before his shoulder injury put a stop to it.
brokenhooker wrote: » you can keep calling the a team makeshift, but for the majority of his leinster career that is where he has played for Leinster and he has played 12 in the vast majority of those games. When he played for the senior team he played centre also. But hey what are facts. have you never heard of a player moving position? Noel Reid played 10 all the way up until he didn't anymore because he wasn't a professional level 10, much like Crosbie.
CMOTDibbler wrote: » You don't have to take your socks off to count the number of that 'vast majority' :rolleyes:
brokenhooker wrote: » so you admit he isn't good enough for leinster at 10, okay great thanks for playing. another academy player they failed to develop, he never had the potential to be a top class 10, they tried to convert him to 12 and failed.
brokenhooker wrote: » has he played more games for the Leinster A team at 10 or 12? Thanks for playing.
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