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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

.ak

There has been an awakening ... Have you felt it?

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CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's just that it seems to be a reactive situation with the academy all the time. At present there are four centres (and if the late lamented brokenhooker is to be believed; 6) in the academy presumably to offset the loss that is BOD and Dorce and prior to that it was locks (although we've broken a couple of them already) and before that we were trying to make tens (still are) and before that it was props...

Why can't we stock it properly so that when the squad is empty we can go there for refills?

Surely the only way to do it is to take those players who have the best chance of making pro grade and worry about positions later?

Like, if you say "right we need to get a scrum half into the academy this year", you'll get one, but he might be a waste of space with no prospects of making the grade.

I'm not sure what the solution is really, apart from out-sourcing to NZ and SA.

CMOTDibbler

Clegg wrote: »

Mahatma has a bit of an axe to grind re: Leinster but it's a bit of a stretch even for him to be questioning Leinster's academy. It's a bit fallow in the backs, but the development of forwards, especially in the front and back rows has been exemplary. Looks like we're finally getting our act together with lock forwards too.

It's just that it seems to be a reactive situation with the academy all the time. At present there are four centres (and if the late lamented brokenhooker is to be believed; 6) in the academy presumably to offset the loss that is BOD and Dorce and prior to that it was locks (although we've broken a couple of them already) and before that we were trying to make tens (still are) and before that it was props...

Why can't we stock it properly so that when the squad is empty we can go there for refills?

Clegg

Mahatma has a bit of an axe to grind re: Leinster but it's a bit of a stretch even for him to be questioning Leinster's academy. It's a bit fallow in the backs, but the development of forwards, especially in the front and back rows has been exemplary. Looks like we're finally getting our act together with lock forwards too.

irishbucsfan

scott1974 wrote: »

Is it safe to come back here now.....

It's been about a week since the last time I heard someone question Ben Te'o around here

scott1974

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol closed account. Better to burn out than fade away.

Is it safe to come back here now.....

CMOTDibbler

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol closed account. Better to burn out than fade away.

His boss just logged on to boards

whatawaster

I still think Leinster have the best performing academy (as they should)

I've tried to list all the players 25 or under (Irish qualified) at each province who I think could go on to be part of the Irish squad in the next few years. Obviously very subjective, but I think it illustrates a few things:

Leinster producing more than enough forwards but not enough backs
Ulster the opposite
Munster have some good young players coming through put probably not as many as we/they would like
Connacht probably the team with the players coming though in all/most positions

I think this shows we are VERY strong in several positions - centre, back row, 2nd row, front row

We are also quite thin and weak at scrum half, out half and full back. I think the back 3 is a real worry for us, I think we are well behind all other top nations in this position.

I've probably been a little generous putting some players in here, and I'm sure there are others I've left out, but I think it is interesting nonetheless.

Position Leinster Ulster Munster Connacht
Front Row Furlong, Moore, Tracey, Dooley Herring, McCall Cronin, N Scannell Bealham, Buckley
Second Row Molony, M Kearney Henderson, O'Connor Dillane, Roux
Back Row Ruddock, Murphy, VDF, Leavy, Conan O'Donoghue Heenan, Masterson, McKeon
Scrum Half L McGrath Marmion, Blade
Out Half Jackson Holland Carty
Centre Ringrose, Reid Marshall, McCloskey, Olding, Arnold R Scannell Henshaw
Wings Byrne, Kelleher Gilroy, Scholes Sweetnam
Fullbacks Conway Leader, O'Halloran

[Deleted User]

Lol closed account. Better to burn out than fade away.

[Deleted User]

brokenhooker wrote: »

in your opinion they aren't there, odd that leinster has more underae internationals than the rest of the provinces combined, so much so that leinster excess goes elsewhere..

but i guess leinster aren't producing talented players. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I don't understand. Are you now saying Leinster are producing an excess talented players?

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

has he played more games for the Leinster A team at 10 or 12?

Thanks for playing.

Leinster A is irrelevant. I pointed out why. You ignored it. I'm the only one 'playing' :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

so you admit he isn't good enough for leinster at 10, okay great thanks for playing.

another academy player they failed to develop, he never had the potential to be a top class 10, they tried to convert him to 12 and failed.

That's a different question. I don't think he was good enough at either position tbh. He might make a creeer for himself elsewhere but he never struck me as being up to the standard at underage level in any case. He might have been a late bloomer but that didn't pan out.

But that's not the discussion. He is still a ten. As a twelve he's a bit more meh than he is at ten. He can kick from hand extremely well, is an average goal kicker and has a very good pass. He could do a job for the likes of Edinburgh or maybe a championship team. At ten.

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You don't have to take your socks off to count the number of that 'vast majority' :rolleyes:

has he played more games for the Leinster A team at 10 or 12?

Thanks for playing.

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

you can keep calling the a team makeshift, but for the majority of his leinster career that is where he has played for Leinster and he has played 12 in the vast majority of those games. When he played for the senior team he played centre also. But hey what are facts.

have you never heard of a player moving position? Noel Reid played 10 all the way up until he didn't anymore because he wasn't a professional level 10, much like Crosbie.

You don't have to take your socks off to count the number of that 'vast majority' :rolleyes:

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well that's clear since he was going to be going to Edinburgh before his shoulder injury put a stop to it.

so you admit he isn't good enough for leinster at 10, okay great thanks for playing.

another academy player they failed to develop, he never had the potential to be a top class 10, they tried to convert him to 12 and failed.

CMOTDibbler

Tox56 wrote: »

Hart isn't even remotely close to being top international quality though, he wouldn't even be international quality full stop really. There are a lot of decent players like Matt Healy, fionn Carr and guys like mick McGrath and even fanning who dropped out of the system, shine at lower levels and can be useful in a pro squad up to a certain level, but they're not close to true top international quality and I don't think a player with that ability is likely to slip through the system at all

We weren't talking about international standard though. Maybe that's an extension of being a top class provincial player but if the first step is missed what chances the next ones?

THe point is that players have fallen through the cracks. Which means that there are cracks to fall through and the next obvious question is how many?

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He is not viewed by Leinster as a 12. He is listed on their website as a ten, an inconvenient truth you dismiss as 'the website is always wrong'. He played 10 for Ireland U20 and at underage for Leinster and in school.

But you think six appearnces for a makeshift A team is indicative of his preferred position and not the one he's trained for and played in almost all his life. :rolleyes:

You can't agree with anyone on this board. Whatever somebody says, even if it partially agrees with you is taken as some sort of contrarian viewpoint that you must argue against virulently.

you can keep calling the a team makeshift, but for the majority of his leinster career that is where he has played for Leinster and he has played 12 in the vast majority of those games. When he played for the senior team he played centre also. But hey what are facts.

have you never heard of a player moving position? Noel Reid played 10 all the way up until he didn't anymore because he wasn't a professional level 10, much like Crosbie.

sheep?

This whole ignore feature is really undermined by the quote feature.

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.

Well that's clear since he was going to be going to Edinburgh before his shoulder injury put a stop to it.

brokenhooker

errlloyd wrote: »

Well that's just wrong. Here he is starting ahead of Carberry.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/14519.php

one of the few times he has played 10.. this year alone he has played more 12 than 10.. even more so in previous years.

Tox56

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd have to disagree there. Firstly there's no way to 'prove' that the academy is missing talent because for many players it's the only outlet they have. Sure there are instances of players ploughing a lonely furrow to get picked up elsewhere, but their very existence speaks to a failure somewhere in the system.

Eoghan Masterson in Connacht is a perfect example of this. James Hart is another.

Hart isn't even remotely close to being top international quality though, he wouldn't even be international quality full stop really. There are a lot of decent players like Matt Healy, fionn Carr and guys like mick McGrath and even fanning who dropped out of the system, shine at lower levels and can be useful in a pro squad up to a certain level, but they're not close to true top international quality and I don't think a player with that ability is likely to slip through the system at all

CMOTDibbler

brokenhooker wrote: »

Did he play 10? no.

has he played 12 for the A team while Marsh and Byrne have played 10? yes.

He is viewed by Leinster as a 12. This undeniable, unless you wish to ignore the reality of the situation.

I have no idea where you are going with this whole the academy squad stuff.. it's called the A team and games are regularly played by them and in those games Crosbie has played 12 when he has started. why would he if he was viewed as an outhalf? oh wait he wouldn't.

He is not viewed by Leinster as a 12. He is listed on their website as a ten, an inconvenient truth you dismiss as 'the website is always wrong'. He played 10 for Ireland U20 and at underage for Leinster and in school.

But you think six appearnces for a makeshift A team is indicative of his preferred position and not the one he's trained for and played in almost all his life. :rolleyes:

You can't agree with anyone on this board. Whatever somebody says, even if it partially agrees with you is taken as some sort of contrarian viewpoint that you must argue against virulently.

salmocab

brokenhooker wrote: »

and you will keep trying to pretend that leinster are doing a good job when it comes to developing backs.

No in fact I've said that Leinster haven't developed enough backs recently but your too busy arguing with everybody.

errlloyd

brokenhooker wrote: »

he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.

Well that's just wrong. Here he is starting ahead of Carberry.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/team/results/14519.php

neelia11

brokenhooker wrote: »

well thats utter crap. it's like saying a team can never be under or over performing.

it's the academies job to help develop talent, over course they can do a poor job at that.

for years leinster struggled to produce forwards but had a backline to die for. The cycle has changed. Now there is two forwards in each position [except lock but with Toner, Maccer there and Molony & James Ryan emerging its not so bad]. There was very few top class forwards in the late 90s/early noughties produced, Mal O'Kelly was probably the only truly top class forward produced. A few others were a level or two down from him.

Look at Man Utd in the 90s, the class of 92. They havent produced anything like that in the intervening years. Its a cycle. Rugby competes with soccer, gaelic football & hurling for players. The academies are there to develop talent, but the talent has to be there to be developed. Some players will have higher ceilings then others.

brokenhooker

errlloyd wrote: »

Sure, but both of his caps were games Jimmy Gopperth played the full 80 in. Gopperth was a handy 10, but I don't think he ever played any other position.

Crosbie played 10 for the Ireland U20s at the world cup, has played 10 for Leinster A and played 10 for Gerards in their superb cup run (as a fifth year I believe). He's a handy backline second pivot also capable of playing 12.

I can't believe you're sitting here deciding some lads career for him based on 2 caps he has a replacements, one of which (3 quarters of his gametime) you couldn't even remember what position he was playing.

he has played centre for the A team, not outhalf. It's clear as day, that's the position leinster view him at. where he played in school or for the u20's isn't relevant.

plenty of 10's move to 12, just ask noel reid. Crosbie will never be a 10 at Leinster.

errlloyd

brokenhooker wrote: »

then he has played 12 and 13, he has never played 10 for Leinster senior team.

Sure, but both of his caps were games Jimmy Gopperth played the full 80 in. Gopperth was a handy 10, but I don't think he ever played any other position.

Crosbie played 10 for the Ireland U20s at the world cup, has played 10 for Leinster A and played 10 for Gerards in their superb cup run (as a fifth year I believe). He's a handy backline second pivot also capable of playing 12.

I can't believe you're sitting here deciding some lads career for him based on 2 caps he has a replacements, one of which (3 quarters of his gametime) you couldn't even remember what position he was playing.

brokenhooker

salmocab wrote: »

Well Id have to check which backs in their first squad came through through their academy recently and compare them to the recent graduates from Leinsters and Id say its not much actual difference. Im going to be honest and say Im not going to do that because all answers will be subjective and you will continue to argue with everyone regardless.

and you will keep trying to pretend that leinster are doing a good job when it comes to developing backs.

leakyboots

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are there many guys outside the Munster 23 who would be good, homegrown but not available.

For Lein there's Furlong, Moore, Tracey, SOB, Conan, Luke Fitz, RK, Ried

I make it Peter O'Mahoney, Dave Foley, Hurley (not great, would like to see him released), Ronan O'Mahoney (he's knocking on the door of a starting wing berth opposite Earls with Conway and Sweetnam). EDIT: BJ Botha too, big loss in the scrum. Chisholm it out too, hence no 2nd row cover

Leinster are missing more experience at the moment through injury with RK, Luke Fitz, SOB and Conan to a degree. Also, Furlong is starting.

brokenhooker

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He was in the 22 shirt both times. Both times he had to come on in a different position to normal because of injuries. He replaced Te'o because Te'o broke his arm in the 19th minute. That was an unexpected occurrence and necessitated Crosbie coming off the bench to replace him as Mick McGrath is not a centre.

Jury-rigged means makeshift, ad-hoc etc. The A sides are more about getting players on the pitch as a rehabilitation exercise for returning from injury players or getting 'a look' at academy squad players.

The academy doesn't even have a full squad never mind a player in each position. As I said before (and you jumped it up by two) the academy currently has four centres. How do you get all them on the pitch in their preferred positions?

Did he play 10? no.

has he played 12 for the A team while Marsh and Byrne have played 10? yes.

He is viewed by Leinster as a 12. This undeniable, unless you wish to ignore the reality of the situation.

I have no idea where you are going with this whole the academy squad stuff.. it's called the A team and games are regularly played by them and in those games Crosbie has played 12 when he has started. why would he if he was viewed as an outhalf? oh wait he wouldn't.

CMOTDibbler

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah they help develop talent, not create it out of thin air. If you think we have had Sexton/Fitzgerald/Kearney level talents in the system in recent years that were neglected/ignored/not developed properly I'd like to know who these people are. Leinster have produced a number of international backs over the last few years, just none that are really outstanding, and that has everything to do with the fact there was no top class international talents in the system, not the failure of the academy

I'd have to disagree there. Firstly there's no way to 'prove' that the academy is missing talent because for many players it's the only outlet they have. Sure there are instances of players ploughing a lonely furrow to get picked up elsewhere, but their very existence speaks to a failure somewhere in the system.

Eoghan Masterson in Connacht is a perfect example of this. James Hart is another.