Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

doireannod · 31-03-2016 11:06PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Of course you don't. You couldn't admit to that or maybe you didn't read any of mary's posts.

You and I view debate differently. I don't think voicing an opinion = jealousy.

thattequilagirl · 31-03-2016 11:07PM

bubblypop wrote: »

So you believe that doctors, nurses, teachers, gardai, prison officers etc etc are overpaid?
You genuinely believe that?

Those are five different professions. I don't think it makes sense to lump them all in together.

doireannod · 31-03-2016 11:11PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Of course you don't. You couldn't admit to that or maybe you didn't read any of mary's posts.

I also don't think Mary is jealous. Maybe she feels a sense of injustice. Again, not jealous, not a begrudger.

31-03-2016 11:13PM

maryishere wrote: »

I do, but as someone else said you are giving back to the government with one hand a bit of what the government has given you in to your other hand.

So let's take a public service salary, subtract PAYE, prsi, pension payments, USC, and of course the pension levy ( tax because they have a pension) then contrast with someone on social welfare payment.
How much more, do you think, public service get paid, from the government & your taxes of course!!

Would you prefer people be working, doing a public service, or just receiving social welfare & doing nothing for it?

& you must remember the amount of money public service employees pay back to they government in VAT etc..
Stamp duty etc....
I think you must be a very bitter person, in a job you dislike very much, to begrudge public service workers a decent wage.

maryishere · 31-03-2016 11:13PM

Bear in mind someone posted earlier that average median wage in the private sector is 28,500 per year - for working - for those lucky enough to have work and not be let go.

The average pension of the 5 groups you mention -doctors,nurses,teachers, gardai + prison officers is more than that - for not working.

Inspector Coptoor · 31-03-2016 11:23PM

maryishere wrote: »

Bear in mind someone posted earlier that average median wage in the private sector is 28,500 per year - for working - for those lucky enough to have work and not be let go.

The average pension of the 5 groups you mention -doctors,nurses,teachers, gardai + prison officers is more than that - for not working.

Yes it is.
AFTER a long career of service and after paying into the pension they are now receiving.

My own father is on a pension of €31k a year after spending 32 years as a Garda and he is full value for that pension.

However, were he, or other public sector workers to die within a few years of retirement, the state would actually be in a surplus from that worker.

The way some of you lot go on, you'd swear all these people were retiring at 50, after working for 30 years and then drawing a pension for 40 years.

I realise there are pension issues going forward - that Defined benefit pensions can't continue as, with an aging population, pensions are now like a pyramid scheme.
However - you can't change the goalposts for people already retired.

Just to add, public sector workers from 2011 onwards and anyone in a position where they were off the states books for 6 months since then, are now on a new pension scheme that would be based on career average earnings as opposed to the average of final 3 years earnings which will have a huge impact on pensions for PS workers in the future and will lower them considerably

31-03-2016 11:24PM

bubblypop wrote: »

So you believe that doctors, nurses, teachers, gardai, prison officers etc etc are overpaid?
You genuinely believe that?

I don't think the above are overpaid, in fact I think Gardaí starting pay is now too low. At the same time, besides the new Gardaí, I wouldn't say that the above are necessarily underpaid either. I believe there is a skewed vision from many here as to what private sector workers are earning, and that they make unrealistic comparisons to back up the notion of what they feel they deserve.

Someone a few pages back was making a comparison to the boss of Dell in Ireland, for example. A middle manager, you might have a point, but to compare a principal or sergeant to the head of a multi-billion euro organization is just a bit much.

31-03-2016 11:25PM

maryishere wrote: »

Bear in mind someone posted earlier that average median wage in the private sector is 28,500 per year - for working - for those lucky enough to have work and not be let go.

The average pension of the 5 groups you mention -doctors,nurses,teachers, gardai + prison officers is more than that - for not working.

For not working???
For working 30+ years for the public sector, as in working for the good of the state for over 30 years!
Would you really begrudge them a decent pension? For working shifts, hard work, looking after sick people, looking after victims, looking after & teaching the young people?
We need public sector employees, & we need to pay them well.
There would be no private sector workers if we didn't have decent public service workers.

31-03-2016 11:31PM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Someone a few pages back was making a comparison to the boss of Dell in Ireland, for example. A middle manager, you might have a point, but to compare a principal or sergeant to the head of a multi-billion euro organization is just a bit much.

I have no issue at all with people in the private sector making as much as they can. If Dell feel that their head in Ireland deserves 200,000 euro a year, more power to him. Delighted for him.
But, if you feel that the teachers, teaching your children, the doctors & nurses looking after your sick family, or the gardai preserving the peace & law of your state are not worthy of a good and decent wage, then there's something wrong.

31-03-2016 11:44PM

bubblypop wrote: »

But, if you feel that the teachers, teaching your children, the doctors & nurses looking after your sick family, or the gardai preserving the peace & law of your state are not worthy of a good and decent wage, then there's something wrong.

Knee-jerk sensationalism. You missed my point entirely, either on purpose or because you're only hearing what you want to hear. A 'good and decent wage' is entirely subjective. Saying that you consider existing pay to be 'good and decent' does not equate someone to some kind of child, teacher, nurse, doctor, garda hating maniac, as you're blatantly trying to imply.

31-03-2016 11:58PM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Knee-jerk sensationalism. You missed my point entirely, either on purpose or because you're only hearing what you want to hear. A 'good and decent wage' is entirely subjective. Saying that you consider existing pay to be 'good and decent' does not equate someone to some kind of child, teacher, nurse, doctor, garda hating maniac, as you're blatantly trying to imply.

No, I'm absolutely not.
I wasn't actually replying to your post, I was replying to Mary.
I don't believe the majority of people in this country hate public service workers, which is why I was replying to Mary.
I think most people in the country are trying to keep their heads above water & are doing their best.
Which is why I don't think most private sector workers have any issues with public sector employees getting a decent wage.
I'm not here looking for 50% pay rises or anything like it!

Geuze · 31-03-2016 11:59PM

maryishere wrote: »

There is info here too: http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-wage-higher-300-than-private-sector-1637290-Aug2014/
It says public sector average wages are €300 per week higher than private sector.
It does not mention the fact the working week for full time workers is shorter in the public sector, the job security, the fact public sector workers take more "sickies" on average, the big payoff tax free bonus on retirement ( 18 months salary) or the big pension (50% of salary).
In Germany there is no premium that public sector workers have over private sector. Here is it just ridiculous.

The Journal is not a reliable source.

Both the ESRI and the CSO have studied the PS pay premium that you refer to.

Yes, there was a premium, no doubt about it, of approx 20%.

You will be happy to hear that due to the three PS paycuts, the average PS pay premium is now approx 0%.

See here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

01-04-2016 12:00AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

Knee-jerk sensationalism. You missed my point entirely, either on purpose or because you're only hearing what you want to hear. A 'good and decent wage' is entirely subjective. Saying that you consider existing pay to be 'good and decent' does not equate someone to some kind of child, teacher, nurse, doctor, garda hating maniac, as you're blatantly trying to imply.

What do you think is a good wage for teachers, doctors, nurses, gardai and all other front line workers?

Geuze · 01-04-2016 12:03AM

maryishere wrote: »

Most in the private sector do not just think it, they know it. And is its the taxes of the private sector going to the government which in turn pays the public sector, working and retired, so it affects the private sector as they are the net contributors of taxes.

There are well over a million people in the private sector. Employers and the country cannot afford to pay private sector works each 300 more per week, or give big pensions to. What sort of a state would the country be in if that was the case - it would be totally uncompetitive.

Note that the PS will always be paid more than the private sector, due to various reasons:

more education, e.g. every teacher has a degree
higher skills, e.g. many doctors in PS
older
less low productivity / lower wage sectors

01-04-2016 12:08AM

bubblypop wrote: »

What do you think is a good wage for teachers, doctors, nurses, gardai and all other front line workers?

In and around what they are on at the moment. I see no drastic improvement in the country's fortunes to make me think otherwise. In fact, I see a lot of areas that seem to be majorly underfunded (housing, childcare, the IT infrastructure for starters) so think wage increases shouldn't be a priority until those issues are sorted out.

Now your turn, what do you think they should be paid?

maryishere · 01-04-2016 12:15AM

Geuze wrote: »

The Journal is not a reliable source.

Well all the rest of the media and reports come to the same conclusion. Here is the examiner:
"Average private sector earnings for the first three months of 2012 was €611.66 a week, which was down 1.9% on the previous three months. This compares with €919.99 in the public service, which was up slightly on the previous three months"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

Not only that, but pensions, security, sickies, hours worked etc are also injust when compared, on average. For example sickies:
Sickies in public service twice that of private sector
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sickies-in-public-service-twice-that-of-private-sector-26798438.html

01-04-2016 12:21AM

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

In and around what they are on at the moment. I see no drastic improvement in the country's fortunes to make me think otherwise. In fact, I see a lot of areas that seem to be majorly underfunded (housing, childcare, the IT infrastructure for starters) so think wage increases shouldn't be a priority until those issues are sorted out.

Now your turn, what do you think they should be paid?

Well I agree that there's a lot of areas that need attention. Homelessness in particular, the government should be building social housing, like they used to. It's disgraceful putting whole families up in one hotel room. Disgusting actually.
I think they do OK as regards wages, but front line staff took a big cut over the last 7 or 8 years. I think reinstating wages should be the first thing.
While, it doesn't effect me I think the new wages for new entrants is disgraceful. It's an insult to those people who want to give their life to public service.
I would actually be happy enough if everyones wages were the same.
Like I said I'm not looking for a massive pay rise.

01-04-2016 12:27AM

maryishere wrote: »

Well all the rest of the media and reports come to the same conclusion. Here is the examiner:
"Average private sector earnings for the first three months of 2012 was €611.66 a week, which was down 1.9% on the previous three months. This compares with €919.99 in the public service, which was up slightly on the previous three months"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

Not only that, but pensions, security, sickies, hours worked etc are also injust when compared, on average. For example sickies:
Sickies in public service twice that of private sector
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sickies-in-public-service-twice-that-of-private-sector-26798438.html

If I am sick for over 3 days, I go on social welfare sick pay.

Geuze · 01-04-2016 12:41AM

maryishere wrote: »

Well all the rest of the media and reports come to the same conclusion. Here is the examiner:
"Average private sector earnings for the first three months of 2012 was €611.66 a week, which was down 1.9% on the previous three months. This compares with €919.99 in the public service, which was up slightly on the previous three months"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

Yes, of course, crude PS earnings are much higher than private sector.

But after adjusting for skills/age/education, etc., the PS pay premium is now approx: -5% to +5%.

maryishere · 01-04-2016 09:25AM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, of course, crude PS earnings are much higher than private sector.

But after adjusting for skills/age/education, etc., the PS pay premium is now approx: -5% to +5%.

No its not, that is a myth, because there are plenty of educated, skilled people in the private sector too? Why is a cleaner in the public sector on average paid in much more than the cleaner in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a secretary in the public sector on average paid in much more than the secretary in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a vet in the public sector on average paid in much more than the vet in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a architect in the public sector on average paid in much more than the architect in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Its because the public sector has got a great deal from the unions and held the country to ransom by threatening to go on strike over the decades. If Mohammed the cleaner in Ballyhaunis went on strike who would care, the country would keep going, if Siobhan the secretary in the typical small to medium struggling enterprise in Cork went on strike who would care ( it might shut down or relocate abroad anyway), if Andy the struggling architect went on strike in Athlone who would care, half of architects are unemployed anyway and if vincent the vet in Wicklow went on strike who would care, people would use some other vet from a mile or two away anyway because he might be cheaper.

According to the report "average private sector earnings for the first three months of 2012 was €611.66 a week, which was down 1.9% on the previous three months. This compares with €919.99 in the public service, which was up slightly on the previous three months". Not surprising. The economy needs enterprising, bright hard working people in its private sector. These people take the risks, take only half the sickies according to the statistics, mostly have no pension ( extremely few could afford a defined benefit pension like the public service get - these are generally not available to the private sector as they would be too expensive to pay in to ), do not have job security. In other countries things are not as unbalanced as here. Over €300 per week is a big difference.

Coat22 · 01-04-2016 09:33AM

Great example of the Public/private divide this morning on the way into work.

Gave a friend of mine a lift in, he's manages a back office function in the education sector. One of his staff left yesterday so a few of them went out last night to celebrate.

He then tells me at 5 this morning 1 of them texts to tell him he won't be turning in today as he's only just got in.

So I ask him "you ok with him taking a holiday at such short notice" - his reply - "nah we'll just put it down as a sick day"

I laughed as that's all I could do.

purplecow1977 · 01-04-2016 11:56AM

maryishere wrote: »

Well all the rest of the media and reports come to the same conclusion. Here is the examiner:
"Average private sector earnings for the first three months of 2012 was €611.66 a week, which was down 1.9% on the previous three months. This compares with €919.99 in the public service, which was up slightly on the previous three months"
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

Not only that, but pensions, security, sickies, hours worked etc are also injust when compared, on average. For example sickies:
Sickies in public service twice that of private sector
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sickies-in-public-service-twice-that-of-private-sector-26798438.html

Did you get chance to read my post on sickies?

You are unbelievable! This just shows your unwillingness to admit the truth that is right in front of you, but continue to willy-nilly bark your narrow minded viewpoint around the place.

For what it's worth, article similar to your examiner one above was discussed yesterday and stated how senior paid positions skew the overall average. Also' in the same article.... If a journalist can't even put their NAME on something they've written, I would take its reliability with a pinch of salt! ðŸ˜€

purplecow1977 · 01-04-2016 11:59AM

Coat22 wrote: »

He then tells me at 5 this morning 1 of them texts to tell him he won't be turning in today as he's only just got in.

So I ask him "you ok with him taking a holiday at such short notice" - his reply - "nah we'll just put it down as a sick day"

I laughed as that's all I could do.

Because nobody in the private sector has ever done that?! I worked with a girl in Dunnes Stores who did it a few times over the course of 3 years!

Coat22 · 01-04-2016 12:41PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Because nobody in the private sector has ever done that?! I worked with a girl in Dunnes Stores who did it a few times over the course of 3 years!

Loads do - but would have they the b*lls to text their manager as they get in from a night out and do it? And would their manager laugh it off and put it down as a sick day asking no questions?

purplecow1977 · 01-04-2016 01:01PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Loads do - but would have they the b*lls to text their manager as they get in from a night out and do it? And would their manager laugh it off and put it down as a sick day asking no questions?

I assume not! I would hope not!

Mardy Bum · 01-04-2016 01:15PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Loads do - but would have they the b*lls to text their manager as they get in from a night out and do it? And would their manager laugh it off and put it down as a sick day asking no questions?

Walk into any of the big 4 accountancy firms today and tell me if you spot much work going on.

Granted your story is a good example of a brutal manager and worker in the PS.

Geuze · 01-04-2016 01:17PM

maryishere wrote: »

No its not, that is a myth, because there are plenty of educated, skilled people in the private sector too? Why is a cleaner in the public sector on average paid in much more than the cleaner in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a secretary in the public sector on average paid in much more than the secretary in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a vet in the public sector on average paid in much more than the vet in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a architect in the public sector on average paid in much more than the architect in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

Please read this report, from page 11. In particular, see page 14.

Page 14 looks at the PS pay premium including the first PS pay cut, and the PRD.

So it looks at the situation in 2010 - note that this is before the third paycut under Haddington road.

Look at chart 2.4.

This shows that, yes, for some lower-paid PS, there is still a pay premium.

I fully accept that.

A clerical officer at top of scale 36k/37k is paid more than private sector equivalent.

However, higher paid PS are paid less than in the private sector, e.g. engineers, accountants, dentists, doctors

If you look at the right side of chart 2.4 you can see that.

For most PS, the pay premium is now between -10% and +10%.

01-04-2016 01:20PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Walk into any of the big 4 accountancy firms today and tell me if you spot much work going on..............

There might or might not be .......... but most of the folks in there will go through periods where they do far more than their 39/hours per week, swings and roundabouts.

Geuze · 01-04-2016 01:23PM

maryishere wrote: »

No its not, that is a myth, because there are plenty of educated, skilled people in the private sector too? Why is a cleaner in the public sector on average paid in much more than the cleaner in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a secretary in the public sector on average paid in much more than the secretary in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a vet in the public sector on average paid in much more than the vet in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Why is a architect in the public sector on average paid in much more than the architect in the more competitive private sector? And without the big pension at the end too.

Please also see table 2.1 for the size of the PS pay premium, and again note that this is before the third PS paycut.

The PS pay premium in 2010 is between -1% and +1.3%.

So we can now state that the PS pay premium has on average been reduced towards 0%, across all grades.

Although some grades are still paid maybe 10-20% more than the private sector, and some grades are paid less than the private equivalent.

fg1406 · 01-04-2016 01:35PM

I earn ~ €5k to €10k less than my private sector equivalent. I graduated when there were few jobs in the private sector and took a role in the public sector instead. I have since upskilled through doing Masters and am now doing an additional level 8 degree. However the problem is there is no recognition for doing so in the public sector. My fiancé did a masters last year and on successful completion was awarded €5k pa pay rise with an additional €5k next year as long as his work targets are met. I have no option to progress career wise until someone retires or dies. I plan to leave my job in the next 12 months and head back to the private sector now that things are picking up. I have had 2 sessions with a career coach who has really opened my eyes to the dead end nature of my current public sector career. I'm working on my interview skills and I have applied for 2 roles so far, and fingers crossed I get short listed for interview.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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