Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:20PM

maudgonner wrote: »

In general there's competition in the private sector. If Dunnes staff go on strike you can go to Aldi. If Cadbury's are on strike you can buy Mars.

Of course that's a generalisation, there are companies within the private sector that have a far more dominant position in the market and cause much more disruption when they have industrial action. But by and large, public sector strikes cause much, much more disruption to the general public.

I am glad you brought this issue up. When the private sector strike its primarily based on the company ie very very rich people, losing money. THe public sector strike is based more on showing how needed a service it is.

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 02:23PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Not specifically what you posted, but there have been a number of posts on here last night & today that come down to 'people should just stop being so bitter and focus on their own lives instead of criticising the public sector'. Ignoring the fact that people may have very valid reasons for their criticism.

I have criticisms of some elements of the public sector myself, believe me!
Though I often feel though that ordinary teachers receive a lot of the criticism from others, and I'm probably being overly defensive of my profession as I assume others work as hard as I do. That's not everyone's experience.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 02:26PM

esforum wrote: »

If I get my hair cut, am I not paying the hairdressers wages? Do I not have an interest in them? Are they not subject to scrutiny for their work?

and once again, am I not paying too much for services considering how many high paid people in the banking sector? Are most companies not owned and run by millionaires?

Theres far, I repeat far more high earners in private business than public service.

Sorry, theres not a single ounce of merit in your arguement.

There is competition in the hairdressing market. If you feel the hairdresser is charging too much or does a poor job, you can go elsewhere.

To a degree (although far less than I would like) the same can be said about banking - you can chose a bank that offers low fees or better service.

Remind me again how I can chose a school that pays teachers less?

There may be far more high earners in the private sector, but there are also far more low earners - didn't someone quote an average industrial wage figure of E28,500 a few pages back?

Paulzx · 31-03-2016 02:29PM

PARlance wrote: »

And sometimes it's down to seeing these people and realising that we (the Country) are paying much more than we should for the services they provide.

I hate the idiots that will trot out the "I pay your wages" line but the fact is that the public service get paid from public money, then they will be subject to scrutiny from the public. People have a vested interest in them.

And to trot out a similar style argument that pro Public Service people make.... don't join the Public Service if you don't want to be judged by the Public.

Yes, but neither the public service nor the private sector can operate without each either. People who produce goods and services create wealth but cannot operate without the non wealth creating services supporting them.

The arguement that the private sector creates all the wealth and the public sector sucks it up is simplistic in the extreme. Neither operates in their own vacuum and they are not completely indepandent.

Society needs each equally

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 02:30PM

esforum wrote: »

I am glad you brought this issue up. When the private sector strike its primarily based on the company ie very very rich people, losing money. THe public sector strike is based more on showing how needed a service it is.

Really? Isn't that another way of saying they hold the country to ransom to get what they want? Do you really think people aren't aware that we need teachers and nurses?

I have no problem with teachers going on strike to improve pupil-teacher ratios, or to get more money for classroom resources. I have no problem with nurses going on strike to get patients off trolleys.

But you're painting a very rosy picture if you say that's what strikes are always about in the public sector.

Paulzx · 31-03-2016 02:31PM

maudgonner wrote: »

There may be far more high earners in the private sector, but there are also far more low earners - didn't someone quote an average industrial wage figure of E28,500 a few pages back?

I'd say the new coppers coming out of templemore on 23 grand would jump all over the "average industrial wage"

Geuze · 31-03-2016 02:32PM

maryishere wrote: »

Considering half the people in the private sector earn less than €28,500 per year

Where did you get this figure from?

I'd love to know, as I can't find CSO data on median earnings.

Mean earnings, I can find.

They are 21.94 ph and 712.75 pw.

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

Paulzx · 31-03-2016 02:33PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Really? Isn't that another way of saying they hold the country to ransom to get what they want? Do you really think people aren't aware that we need teachers and nurses?

I have no problem with teachers going on strike to improve pupil-teacher ratios, or to get more money for classroom resources. I have no problem with nurses going on strike to get patients off trolleys.

.

So basically you've no problem with someone else going on strike to get something that benefits you but if it's to benefit themselves you have an issue with it.

Nice....

Geuze · 31-03-2016 02:34PM

maryishere wrote: »

By the way, it was the public sectors job ( Central Bank, Regulator, Government ) to regulate the economy, but yet their pensions alone are ten times bigger than anyone in the real world gets.

You will find that the pension fund of most CEOs will be much more than the pension of most leaders of PS organisations.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 02:37PM

Paulzx wrote: »

I'd say the new coppers coming out of templemore on 23 grand would jump all over the "average industrial wage"

In year 2 their wage goes up to 28,302. Year 3 it's 29,834. So they'd only have to jump for 2 years before they're earning very close to the average industrial wage.

How many people must be getting paid less than that in order for the average to be so low?

(And yet, I still think that the starting wage for Gardaí should be higher)

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:38PM

maudgonner wrote: »

There is competition in the hairdressing market. If you feel the hairdresser is charging too much or does a poor job, you can go elsewhere.

Thats neither here nor there, the poster stated that the public sector are scrutinised as the public pay them. We all pay each other. We all employ each other.

maudgonner wrote: »

To a degree (although far less than I would like) the same can be said about banking - you can chose a bank that offers low fees or better service.

That doesnt change the high incomes many recieve. Bank senior staff are on far more than a Garda as an example.

maudgonner wrote: »

Remind me again how I can chose a school that pays teachers less?

Why would you seek out a company and utilise their service based on the fact that they pay bad? Thats just such a negative and mean attutude. Not once did I suggest seeking another company based on saleries, not once. That speaks volumes about your mentality in this issue.

Not all teachers are state funded by the way, some in private schools who are in fact 'private' employees earn more not less than state pay. So to answer your question of how you find a school that pays less than another, look for a public state school

maudgonner wrote: »

didn't someone quote an average industrial wage figure of E28,500 a few pages back?

Isnt it amazing that the figure quoted is always the average 'industrial' wage as opposed to just the plain aul private employment wage? Would it be because it excludes a lot of high earners and high earning sectors?

maudgonner wrote: »

There may be far more high earners in the private sector, but there are also far more low earners -

Exactly, absolutely bloody 100% correct. Thats the way it is when entering private employment, some make millions, some dont. Thats the choice thats made.

This suggests you will only be happy if absolutely no private worker earns less than a public sector worker.

Sorry but I am more skilled, more needed, have more responsibility and work more than a lot of private workers on low income and I work in an area that open recruitment so absolutly ever singe person in this thread cou ld have applied for my job. You and many others, chose not too.

maudgonner wrote: »

Really? Isn't that another way of saying they hold the country to ransom to get what they want? Do you really think people aren't aware that we need teachers and nurses?

I have no problem with teachers going on strike to improve pupil-teacher ratios, or to get more money for classroom resources. I have no problem with nurses going on strike to get patients off trolleys.

But you're painting a very rosy picture if you say that's what strikes are always about in the public sector.

what do private workers strike for? Never heard of a shop going on strike to get customers better prices. Have you?

njs030 · 31-03-2016 02:42PM

Paulzx wrote: »

I'd say the new coppers coming out of templemore on 23 grand would jump all over the "average industrial wage"

That's a basic pay. They get shift payments and a whole host of allowances on top of it.
Plus the massive pay off at the end of their 30 years....
It's still not a huge wage I agree but it's not 23grand either.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 02:43PM

Paulzx wrote: »

So basically you've no problem with someone else going on strike to get something that benefits you but if it's to benefit themselves you have an issue with it.

Nice....

I have no problem with someone going on strike to improve the service - which is what esforum said public service strikes are all about.

I have no problem with people going on strike to improve their own conditions if their conditions are unacceptable. It's whether their conditions are unacceptable or not that's the question. And I don't feel that it's unfair for the public to form their own opinion as to whether that's the case.

We can't stop public service workers from going on strike (with the exception of Gardaí, Defence Forces etc that's their right). But we certainly have the right to express our displeasure at the strike if we believe it is unjustified.

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:44PM

Geuze wrote: »

Where did you get this figure from?

I'd love to know, as I can't find CSO data on median earnings.

Mean earnings, I can find.

They are 21.94 ph and 712.75 pw.

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

Wouldnt that equate to more than the average industrial wage? Now, I am only an uneducated overpaid neanderthal but I think so.

PARlance · 31-03-2016 02:47PM

esforum wrote: »

If I get my hair cut, am I not paying the hairdressers wages? Do I not have an interest in them? Are they not subject to scrutiny for their work?

I think you misread my post. To clarify, anyone using the "I pay your wages" line is an idiot in my book. But getting past that.
Hairdressers are of course subject to scrutiny.
If they aren't good at their job, they will get fired. Or if they're a sole trader, the will lose their business. This accountability and responsibility is lacking in the Public Sector.

esforum wrote: »

and once again, am I not paying too much for services considering how many high paid people in the banking sector?

Are there a lot of highly paid people in the banking sector? YES
Are you paying too much for services? I don't know how much your paying so I can't comment.
You'll have to clarify that for me.

Do I feel like I'm paying too much? I did until I took action and switched to another bank with considerably less fees.

esforum wrote: »

Are most companies not owned and run by millionaires?

Not sure what the point behind the question is here. But to answer your question.
NO, most companies are not run by millionaires. The SME sector employs ~80% of the private workforce in Ireland. At a guess, SME's represent 95%+ of companies in Ireland. Most owners of SME's (and therefore Companies) are NOT millionaires by a long shot.

esforum wrote: »

Theres far, I repeat far more high earners in private business than public service.

Yes. There are far more people earning minimum wage in private business than public sector.

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:48PM

notjustsweet wrote: »

That's a basic pay. They get shift payments and a whole host of allowances on top of it.
Plus the massive pay off at the end of their 30 years....
It's still not a huge wage I agree but it's not 23grand either.

Jesus wept, please read threads, What allowances? You should be paid extra for working Christmas day.

Geuze · 31-03-2016 02:53PM

esforum wrote: »

Wouldnt that equate to more than the average industrial wage? Now, I am only an uneducated overpaid neanderthal but I think so.

No such thing as "average industrial wage" anymore.

Not published by CSO anymore.

Average earnings are:

21.94 per hour
712.75 per week
37,191 per year

PARlance · 31-03-2016 02:54PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Yes, but neither the public service nor the private sector can operate without each either. People who produce goods and services create wealth but cannot operate without the non wealth creating services supporting them.

The arguement that the private sector creates all the wealth and the public sector sucks it up is simplistic in the extreme. Neither operates in their own vacuum and they are not completely indepandent.

Society needs each equally

I completely agree on that but it has nothing to do with my point.

Geuze · 31-03-2016 02:55PM

maudgonner wrote: »

In year 2 their wage goes up to 28,302. Year 3 it's 29,834. So they'd only have to jump for 2 years before they're earning very close to the average industrial wage.

How many people must be getting paid less than that in order for the average to be so low?

Average earnings are 37,191.

No such thing as "average industrial wages" published by CSO anymore.

njs030 · 31-03-2016 02:56PM

esforum wrote: »

Jesus wept, please read threads, What allowances? You should be paid extra for working Christmas day.

I didn't disagree, but actual wage is different to the basic wage that is quoted.

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:56PM

PARlance wrote: »

I think you misread my post. To clarify, anyone using the "I pay your wages" line is an idiot in my book. But getting past that.
Hairdressers are of course subject to scrutiny.
If they aren't good at their job, they will get fired. Or if they're a sole trader, the will lose their business. This accountability and responsibility is lacking in the Public Sector.

Are there a lot of highly paid people in the banking sector? YES
Are you paying too much for services? I don't know how much your paying so I can't comment.
You'll have to clarify that for me.

Do I feel like I'm paying too much? I did until I took action and switched to another bank with considerably less fees.

Not sure what the point behind the question is here. But to answer your question.
NO, most companies are not run by millionaires. The SME sector employs ~80% of the private workforce in Ireland. At a guess, SME's represent 95%+ of companies in Ireland. Most owners of SME's (and therefore Companies) are NOT millionaires by a long shot.

Yes. There are far more people earning minimum wage in private business than public service.

I disagree obviously. Only one "e" in argument btw... I blame the teachers

The myths continue, Gardai, Nurses, etc can all be fired for incompetance, Its a myth that they cant.

I have already addressed that, who was speaking purely about Ireland? Whole big bad world out there.

Correct on the income, but again. Gardai deserve better pay than a factlory worker, sorry but they do.

SME's can be upto 200 or 300 employees depending on nation. A company emplying 300 people owned by a single entity? yeah, that owners on low money allright, and over there is the tree I fell out of.

Whats the average income for self employed people? Do you know?

Whats the average income for workers with degrees? Do you know?

Whats the average annual profit across SME's?

Does a private doctor earn more or less than a public?

what about a private nurse?

Trying to think of others than cross the divide. Mercenaries compared to soldiers maybe?

Geuze · 31-03-2016 02:57PM

esforum wrote: »

Wouldnt that equate to more than the average industrial wage? Now, I am only an uneducated overpaid neanderthal but I think so.

Average earnings in industry = 864.09 per week, or 45,088 pa.

Overall average earnings = 712.75 pw, or 37,191 pa

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32015finalq42015preliminaryestimates/

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:58PM

Geuze wrote: »

Average earnings in industry = 864.09 per week, or 45,088 pa.

Overall average earnings = 712.75 pw, or 37,191 pa

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32015finalq42015preliminaryestimates/

your blowing my mind, but isnt it 28 a year?

doireannod · 31-03-2016 02:58PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Enlighten me doireannod how long does it take to become a SHO and how much are you paid on point 1 of SHO scale?

My own knowledge of this tells me it takes 1 year full time work and then you are a SHO starting on 38k minimum.

I am also aware that there is a bit of controversy surrounding the living out allowance at present. I was also referring to Sunday double time and on call off site rates.

To me that would mean most doctors are on at least 38k without any overtime or Sunday double or on call off site rates after a years work.

Now I could be totally wrong and if so I empathise with your fatigue from reading my posts.

I'm not saying the job is easy. In fact it is brutal so don't think I'm slighting you.

So you you consider progressing up a pay scale an "allowance"?

Do consider working on a Sunday and getting paid for it an "allowance"?

Do you consider being paid to be on call off site an "allowance"?

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:59PM

notjustsweet wrote: »

I didn't disagree, but actual wage is different to the basic wage that is quoted.

by how much?

PARlance · 31-03-2016 02:59PM

Geuze wrote: »

You will find that the pension fund of most CEOs will be much more than the pension of most leaders of PS organisations.

There must have been a copy of Forbes going around the staffroom.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 03:00PM

Geuze wrote: »

Average earnings are 37,191.

No such thing as "average industrial wages" published by CSO anymore.

Thanks Geuze.

I checked back and the 28,500 was quoted as the median wage. Is that figure right? (just out of interest)

esforum · 31-03-2016 03:00PM

maudgonner wrote: »

I have no problem with someone going on strike to improve the service - which is what esforum said public service strikes are all about.

No I didnt

Geuze · 31-03-2016 03:02PM

esforum wrote: »

your blowing my mind, but isnt it 28 a year?

I am quoting you CSO data, you can look it up yourself.

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

Average weekly earnings are 712.75, or 37,191.

Within industry, defined as NACE sectors B-E, average weekly earnings are 864.09, or 45,088.

It is obvious that earnings would be higher in industry than across the whole economy.

esforum · 31-03-2016 03:03PM

Geuze wrote: »

I am quoting you CSO data, you can look it up yourself.

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/

Average weekly earnings are 712.75, or 37,191.

Within industry, defined as NACE sectors B-E, average weekly earnings are 864.09, or 45,088.

It is obvious that earnings would be higher in industry than across the whole economy.

I realise that, should have used smilies

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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