Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

mada999 · 30-03-2016 11:26PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I was a doing a bit of lawn work for a rich family a few years ago. Come Friday evening I knocked on the door in the hope of getting paid, and the four year old son answered. 'Is your Mammy or Daddy in?' says I. 'No', says he, 'are you looking to get paid? I can pay you'. 'OK', says I, somewhat bemused. So the wee lad goes back into the house and reappears a few minutes later handing me a shiny one pence piece. 'What's the idea of this?' says I. 'Mammy says you aren't worth tuppence' says he, smiling.

absolute total lies...

there's no way he would have said 'mammy', i'd say he said 'mummy'

PARlance · 30-03-2016 11:32PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Hugely unfair & incorrect.

This appears to be one of those troll comments without any substance; a comment intended merely to flame conversation without adding anything to the actual discussion.

What exactly have you added to the discussion with this?

Point out the reasons why you think my opinions are hugely unfair and incorrect.

purplecow1977 · 30-03-2016 11:37PM

PARlance wrote: »

What exactly have you added to the discussion with this?

Point out the reasons why you think my opinions are hugely unfair and incorrect.

I added previous comments based on the same matter about 1 hour ago. To repeat same would be tedious!

PARlance · 30-03-2016 11:40PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I added previous comments based on the same matter about 1 hour ago. To repeat same would be tedious!

Well if you've said you piece then move on and ignore my opinions. I'm not obliged to read over the thread. I'm guessing that would be tedious.

purplecow1977 · 30-03-2016 11:43PM

PARlance wrote: »

Well if you've said you piece then move on and ignore my opinions. I'm not obliged to read over the thread. I'm guessing that would be tedious.

What another superb addition to the conversation! You don't understand the merits of debating then I take it!

Hardly asking anyone to read over the whole thread, simply the last couple of posts before you made your comment as it appeared you were replying to the recent few posts, to which I had contributed, but perhaps it was just a random trolling comment as I suspected initially.

PARlance · 30-03-2016 11:59PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

What another superb addition to the conversation! You don't understand the merits of debating then I take it! Hardly asking anyone to read over the whole thread, simply the last couple of posts before you made your comment as it appeared you were replying to the recent few posts, to which I had contributed, but perhaps it was just a random trolling comment as I suspected initially.

I cannot debate without an opposing argument from you, to me.

All I have to work with at present is emotions and petty name calling / slurs being thrown at me.

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 12:01AM

PARlance wrote: »

I cannot debate without an opposing argument from you, to me.

All I have to work with at present is emotions and petty name calling / slurs being thrown at me.

Emotions? Nope. I don't believe I expressed emotions. Oh well, other than expressing admiration for specific employees.

I also reject your idea that any petty name calling or slurs took place, but I don't envisage that you and I will be seeing any eye to eye on any matter so I shall leave it at that!

KERSPLAT! · 31-03-2016 12:01AM

Mod

Can you both give it a rest, please.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-03-2016 12:30AM

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Mod

Can you both give it a rest, please.

http://m.imgur.com/Je60mGb?r

esforum · 31-03-2016 01:43AM

wow this thread is a beauty. 49 pages which could be condensed to about 4 posts consisting of "the public sector are all lazy and rich and retire early"

"No they dont because a, b, c, d, and e"

.........................................

"the public sector are all lazy and rich and retire early"

But I can end it now.

the public sector helps you be born. the public sector keeps you alive and well, treats you when you are sick, the public sector educates you, the public sector protects you from criminals, the public sector keeps those criminals locked up so you can enjoy life, the public sector collects your waste, maintains the roads you drive on, the paths you walk, cleans those streets, processes your dole / child benefit / sick benefit / tax refund, issues your passport and drivers license, maintains the pitches and parks, processes your applications, makes your ex pay maintenance for you and / or your kids and takes care of all the paperwork needed for, ensures your rights are respected, protects you when the private company tries to rip you off.

the private sector sells you items, often ones that you dont need and thus employs thousands of people to convince you you do.

No public sector employee is on the forbes rich list, its exclusively private sector. The vast majority of luxery mansions and cars are owned by private sector empoyees. The most expensive watches and phones are in private sector hands.

"I want to be rich and famous so I joined the public sector" said no one, ever

maryishere · 31-03-2016 02:30AM

esforum wrote: »

"the public sector rich and retire early"

Considering half the people in the private sector earn less than €28,500 per year and will never have a public service pension, or indeed the job security that many would crave (in the past decade hundreds of thousands of private sector employees have lost their jobs ) yes, you or right.

Rabbling on in your public sector jealousy about the luxery mansions and cars and most expensive watches and phones of those in the forbes rich list is just pathetic - you know how many people are on the forbes rich list? If you want to be on it, try to be...you will have a better chance of winning the lottery. Oh, I forgot, you already won it.;)

By the way, it was the public sectors job ( Central Bank, Regulator, Government ) to regulate the economy, but yet their pensions alone are ten times bigger than anyone in the real world gets.

31-03-2016 02:45AM

I read a little bit of this thread and then stopped.

I don't understand the animosity of some people towards both sides of the workforce. Perhaps I'm naive but surely we are all in this together? All doing our best with what we have.

My own experience of being employed by the public sector was pretty dismal. The money was good. The type of work was very difficult.
I can't comment on life in the private sector but I'm sure it has both advantages and disadvantages.

Why are people so angry? "Oh teachers have it cushy". Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Let them at it. Live your life, in your profession, concentrate on making yourself happy instead of throwing venom towards others because of their job conditions.

31-03-2016 02:48AM

maryishere wrote: »

Rabbling on in your public sector jealousy about the luxery mansions and cars and most expensive watches and phones of those in the forbes rich list is just pathetic - you know how many people are on the forbes rich list? If you want to be on it, try to be...you will have a better chance of winning the lottery. Oh, I forgot, you already won it.;)

Such anger.

There will always be those who have more money and less money than you.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 10:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are people so angry? "Oh teachers have it cushy". Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Let them at it. Live your life, in your profession, concentrate on making yourself happy instead of throwing venom towards others because of their job conditions.

Surely that's the point though? It's not so easy to ignore public sector pay disputes and strikes as it would be if they were private sector, because they do affect you.

Increased pay will either mean increased taxes, an increased deficit or cuts elsewhere. Strikes affect service users - the public.

Obviously 'throwing venom' isn't going to help anyone. But should we not be able to talk about how public money is spent? If it's done in the right way, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to discuss it. It might even give a better perspective on how much extra teachers put into their jobs that can't be seen from the outside.

Mardy Bum · 31-03-2016 12:51PM

doireannod wrote: »

Another teacher said that a doctor's basic starting pay is 30k but most doctors earn >40k per annum due to "allowances". Really have no idea what he/she is talking about!

Enlighten me doireannod how long does it take to become a SHO and how much are you paid on point 1 of SHO scale?

My own knowledge of this tells me it takes 1 year full time work and then you are a SHO starting on 38k minimum.

I am also aware that there is a bit of controversy surrounding the living out allowance at present. I was also referring to Sunday double time and on call off site rates.

To me that would mean most doctors are on at least 38k without any overtime or Sunday double or on call off site rates after a years work.

Now I could be totally wrong and if so I empathise with your fatigue from reading my posts.

I'm not saying the job is easy. In fact it is brutal so don't think I'm slighting you.

31-03-2016 12:53PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Surely that's the point though? It's not so easy to ignore public sector pay disputes and strikes as it would be if they were private sector, because they do affect you.

Increased pay will either mean increased taxes, an increased deficit or cuts elsewhere. Strikes affect service users - the public.

Obviously 'throwing venom' isn't going to help anyone. But should we not be able to talk about how public money is spent? If it's done in the right way, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to discuss it. It might even give a better perspective on how much extra teachers put into their jobs that can't be seen from the outside.

There is a huge difference between having a balanced evidence based opinion on a subject and the emotive/foaming at the mouth/ type of response you sometime get on AH, plus the trolling.

People own position effect their perception too, for example someone putting their child in to a childcare at 7.30am and picking them up at 6.30pm and getting 4 weeks holiday a year, while simultaneously watching their neighbour who is a teacher getting lots of paid holidays and is home at 4.30pm every evening, often have a very personal view of the issue.

The thing is the opinion based on fact and not emotion.

You will never get a consensus about what extra effort a teacher puts in it too subjective.

esforum · 31-03-2016 01:02PM

maryishere wrote: »

Considering half the people in the private sector earn less than €28,500 per year and will never have a public service pension, or indeed the job security that many would crave (in the past decade hundreds of thousands of private sector employees have lost their jobs ) yes, you or right.

Rabbling on in your public sector jealousy about the luxery mansions and cars and most expensive watches and phones of those in the forbes rich list is just pathetic - you know how many people are on the forbes rich list? If you want to be on it, try to be...you will have a better chance of winning the lottery. Oh, I forgot, you already won it.;)

By the way, it was the public sectors job ( Central Bank, Regulator, Government ) to regulate the economy, but yet their pensions alone are ten times bigger than anyone in the real world gets.

blah blah blah, waffle waffle waffle. Its all the same crap from you Mary.

half the people get less than, yeah and what about the other half earning fortunes???? Oh we muystnt include them now must we?

Public sector jealousy? Wow you are deluded, I aint the one crying foul about what other people earn. You are, I am making a point about your limited views.

Try to be it? well thanks for defeating your own arguement absolutely and completely. You try the public sector, oh wait. Thats been said to you a dozen times now, time to ignore for a while Mary until the posts vanish?

100 of thousands, well no actually. Less than 10% of the private sector lost their jobs. So 90% actually had great job security during the recession. False arguement.

Public sector pension? Of course no private worker will have one, its for the ppublic sector! I will never have Bill Gates pension either. Whats your point?

Ten times bigger pensions? Well actually no, no they arent. Again I will direct you to the top, oh lets say 1 million people in the world, now look at the top 1 million pensions on the world. Private sector workers.

Real world? Selling iphones to gullible people aint the real world. Creating ****ty ads aint the real world. Shuffling numbers from one bank to another and claiming millions in bonuses aint the real world.

ackling armed criminals., delivering babies, saving children from fires, rushing a critically ill woman to hospital while treating them, patching up wounded persons, cleaning the roads, running the country, thats real world.

You chose, let me repeat this for those (Mary) that will try to ignore it, you CHOSE the private sector over the public. I would suggest its because

A, You saw more money and more oppurtunities in it or

B, Couldnt face;
the criminal,
the parents of the stillborn child
critically injured woman from the 2 car collision.
Wouldnt have any idea of how to break the news to their relatives.
Wouldnt lower yourself to sweep up other peoples rubbish
Would wet yourself if ordered into a burning building and would be absolutely mentally unable to go to work the next day after recovering a childs burnt corpse
Didnt fancy spending your time educating children who would then go on to moan about your pay when their dreams of striking it rich dont happen

I could go on but when all is said and done, you will jst ignore what you cant argue and make up more fabricated evidence based on Gardai living to be 90

Paulzx · 31-03-2016 01:06PM

mariaalice wrote: »

T while simultaneously watching their neighbour who is a teacher getting lots of paid holidays and is home at 4.30pm every evening, often have a very personal view of the issue.

........and sometimes that personal view is down to nothing more than petty jealousy and good old fashioned human envy.

We all make our choices in life. We all have diverse aspirations, motivations and goals.

Becoming bitter about the choices other people have made is futile. It would suit some begrudgers much better to concentrate on their own careers, lives etc.

esforum · 31-03-2016 01:07PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Surely that's the point though? It's not so easy to ignore public sector pay disputes and strikes as it would be if they were private sector, because they do affect you.

because you rely on the public sector but not the private?

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 01:25PM

esforum wrote: »

because you rely on the public sector but not the private?

In general there's competition in the private sector. If Dunnes staff go on strike you can go to Aldi. If Cadbury's are on strike you can buy Mars.

Of course that's a generalisation, there are companies within the private sector that have a far more dominant position in the market and cause much more disruption when they have industrial action. But by and large, public sector strikes cause much, much more disruption to the general public.

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 01:29PM

Paulzx wrote: »

........and sometimes that personal view is down to nothing more than petty jealousy and good old fashioned human envy.

We all make our choices in life. We all have diverse aspirations, motivations and goals.

Becoming bitter about the choices other people have made is futile. It would suit some begrudgers much better to concentrate on their own careers, lives etc.

I really like this post.

Becoming bitter about a teacher arriving home at 4.30, is no different to bitterness because my friend went on holidays to the US last week, or my brother got an extra 'bonus' a few weeks ago, or my other brother gets a top of the range tablet for 'work', or my cousin who gets one4all vouchers, digital cameras etc as a 'bonus' for dealing with the sales reps etc etc. I could go on, I won't, as I found it difficult enough to think of examples as I don't spend my time in a bitter bubble.

Meanwhile, the Denis O Brien's of the country go relatively unnoticed!

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 01:30PM

maudgonner wrote: »

In general there's competition in the private sector. If Dunnes staff go on strike you can go to Aldi. If Cadbury's are on strike you can buy Mars.

Of course that's a generalisation, there are companies within the private sector that have a far more dominant position in the market and cause much more disruption when they have industrial action. But by and large, public sector strikes cause much, much more disruption to the general public.

If disruption is not caused, what can I ask is the point of a strike?

PARlance · 31-03-2016 01:31PM

Paulzx wrote: »

........and sometimes that personal view is down to nothing more than petty jealousy and good old fashioned human envy.

We all make our choices in life. We all have diverse aspirations, motivations and goals.

Becoming bitter about the choices other people have made is futile. It would suit some begrudgers much better to concentrate on their own careers, lives etc.

And sometimes it's down to seeing these people and realising that we (the Country) are paying much more than we should for the services they provide.

I hate the idiots that will trot out the "I pay your wages" line but the fact is that the public service get paid from public money, then they will be subject to scrutiny from the public. People have a vested interest in them.

And to trot out a similar style argument that pro Public Service people make.... don't join the Public Service if you don't want to be judged by the Public.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 01:33PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

If disruption is not caused, what can I ask is the point of a strike?

Disruption to who? If staff in a private company go on strike it's a disruption to their customers, to some degree (depending on how easy for them is is to go elsewhere), but mainly to their employers.

If public sector staff go on strike it's a disproportionally larger disruption to their 'customers' - pupils, patients, passengers, clients etc because it's rarely possible for them to simply go to another service provider to get what they need.

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 01:39PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Disruption to who? If staff in a private company go on strike it's a disruption to their customers, to some degree (depending on how easy for them is is to go elsewhere), but mainly to their employers.

If public sector staff go on strike it's a disproportionally larger disruption to their 'customers' - pupils, patients, passengers, clients etc because it's rarely possible for them to simply go to another service provider to get what they need.

The current luas strike - the strike action is causing a lot of money to be lost. This puts pressure on the boss men to force a compromise. Equally, the employees are losing out on money until a resolution is solved.

With public sector, strike action is the last straw. It is never a decision taken lightly and many of the employees would rather an alternative option but if all other options have been exercised without resolution, then at times it is a necessity. Again, the purpose of a strike (in the public sector instance) is to create pressure on the government. I can't imagine nurses on strike take any pleasure in knowing essential services for patients are not provided, or that teachers enjoy students missing out on education.

If a strike did not create any disruption, then it is of little value and effect.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 01:50PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

The current luas strike - the strike action is causing a lot of money to be lost. This puts pressure on the boss men to force a compromise. Equally, the employees are losing out on money until a resolution is solved.

With public sector, strike action is the last straw. It is never a decision taken lightly and many of the employees would rather an alternative option but if all other options have been exercised without resolution, then at times it is a necessity. Again, the purpose of a strike (in the public sector instance) is to create pressure on the government. I can't imagine nurses on strike take any pleasure in knowing essential services for patients are not provided, or that teachers enjoy students missing out on education.

If a strike did not create any disruption, then it is of little value and effect.

I'm so glad you brought up Luas, I was just about to. Luas is unusual in that it's a private company but providing a public service and there's no direct competition. So for the public it's much more like a public service organisation.

There has been huge criticism of the strike and the pay demands that the Luas employees are making. Do you think we're wrong to criticise them? To question whether they deserve their high salaries? And to criticise their actions in holding their customers to ransom to get what they want? Because if you do, you're in the minority. But that's what you're expecting us to do for teachers and all public sector workers, it seems.

I think it's very unfair to write off any criticism of teachers' pay & conditions as 'just bitterness'. Argue your points - fine, but refusing to consider someone else's point of view on the basis that your critics are just jealous? It's no wonder people think that teachers live in their own bubble.

rubadub · 31-03-2016 01:50PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

The current luas strike - the strike action is causing a lot of money to be lost.

The poster was saying it causes more disruption. Money is not lost just to the luas company. Loads suffer indirectly, tourists here at the time will not have got to use the service, I remember the tram service in other countries being a huge talking point of people I know who went there. Hotels would suffer indirectly and the tourist industry on the whole. Shops on the luas line etc.

purplecow1977 wrote: »

that teachers enjoy students missing out on education.

People having to take leave from work to take care of the kids, missing money themselves, using up valuable leave, and leaving employers high and dry.

I do not believe it is always a last straw, some know fine well how much they will fcuk over huge amounts of more people and take advantage of that. The true "owners of the business" are the government and they would have to think how it will effect all these other people and so the strikers know they would be quicker to give in than if privately owned.

purplecow1977 · 31-03-2016 02:01PM

maudgonner wrote: »

I'm so glad you brought up Luas, I was just about to. Luas is unusual in that it's a private company but providing a public service and there's no direct competition. So for the public it's much more like a public service organisation.

There has been huge criticism of the strike and the pay demands that the Luas employees are making. Do you think we're wrong to criticise them? To question whether they deserve their high salaries? And to criticise their actions in holding their customers to ransom to get what they want? Because if you do, you're in the minority. But that's what you're expecting us to do for teachers and all public sector workers, it seems.

]I think it's very unfair to write off any criticism of teachers' pay & conditions as 'just bitterness'. Argue your points - fine, but refusing to consider someone else's point of view on the basis that your critics are just jealous? It's no wonder people think that teachers live in their own bubble.

I consider someone complaining about teachers arriving home at 4.30 whilst comparing childcare bills until 6pm or so, bitterness yes, I'm not sure how this means I'm refusing another's point of view?

I don't think you're wrong to criticise them, but I also don't believe that the luas workers expect to win their claims in their entirety. Aim high, and expect a conclusion somewhere in the middle. Isn't that how bargaining works? I see a bag at a stall for €50. The seller doesn't expect to get €50 for that. I offer €20. They say no €45, and eventually we come to an agreement around €35. I assume this is how most negotiations go.

rubadub wrote: »

I do not believe it is always a last straw, some know fine well how much they will fcuk over huge amounts of more people and take advantage of that. The true "owners of the business" are the government and they would have to think how it will effect all these other people and so the strikers know they would be quicker to give in than if privately owned.

Because the government are kind & considerate like that. :rolleyes:

I believe it's a last straw. Industrial action involves other methods. Strike is always the last one. I work in a large school and anyone I have spoken to in the past would avoid a strike where possible. The government know that too.

maudgonner · 31-03-2016 02:17PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I consider someone complaining about teachers arriving home at 4.30 whilst comparing childcare bills until 6pm or so, bitterness yes, I'm not sure how this means I'm refusing another's point of view?

Not specifically what you posted, but there have been a number of posts on here last night & today that come down to 'people should just stop being so bitter and focus on their own lives instead of criticising the public sector'. Ignoring the fact that people may have very valid reasons for their criticism.

esforum · 31-03-2016 02:18PM

PARlance wrote: »

And sometimes it's down to seeing these people and realising that we (the Country) are paying much more than we should for the services they provide.

I hate the idiots that will trot out the "I pay your wages" line but the fact is that the public service get paid from public money, then they will be subject to scrutiny from the public. People have a vested interest in them.

And to trot out a similar style argument that pro Public Service people make.... don't join the Public Service if you don't want to be judged by the Public.

If I get my hair cut, am I not paying the hairdressers wages? Do I not have an interest in them? Are they not subject to scrutiny for their work? Have I not directly paid Bill Gates and Michael Dell? They earned last year more than any public sector worker including the very very top ever will.
Theres far, I repeat far more high earners in private business than public service.

and once again, am I not paying too much for services considering how many high paid people in the banking sector? Are most companies not owned and run by millionaires?

Sorry, theres not a single ounce of merit in your arguement.

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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