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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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Comments

  • #992
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    ukoda wrote: »
    Let's play out your doomsday scenario of "I'm a merchant who bought a list of postcodes and I think this particular postcode is like the UK one and I know Mary at this postcode bought a laptop so I want to do a mail shot to all Mary's neighbours because I think they are laptop purchasing folk"

    Ok so Mary's postcode is ABC123, hmm now that means nothing to me, I better look it up....off I go to the Irish postcode website to have a look, oh no! This is a unique identifier to one house! But WAIT! I can just get the list of all neighbouring postcodes, on no! They aren't sequential so I in fact can't just fire out letters to her neighbours, damn it, BUT WAIT I can licence this ECAD thing and then get all the addresses in a certain radius of Mary's house, look at me go, oh dear, has Mary given consent for me to have her address now that I know the postcode = one address. I'm a reputable marketeer so I will check with the merchant before I do anything.

    Or if I'm a bit dodgy: screw it I'm going to send my laptop brochure to all her neighbours.

    End result:
    Best case scenario, nothing happens at all
    Worst case scenario, someone gets a laptop brochure

    Oh the humanity! I've been violated


    That's the problem with these fear inducing statements of "SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN" people get caught up in it and need to take moment to get back to the reality of not everyone is out to violate your privacy. Some are, and they will do it with or without eircode. Such is life.

    If I was the kind of person who'd send out unsolicited marketing material, I wouldn't be bothered about getting Mary's Eircode in the first place. I'd just pick a load of addresses at random and fire away.

    Here are guidelines from the UK's Information Commissioner about unsolicited marketing literature (junk mail):
    What is junk mail?

    Junk mail is unwanted postal marketing such as flyers, competition entries and postal campaigns.

    How can I reduce the amount of junk mail I receive?

    If you are having a problem with the overall amount of junk mail that is addressed to you, it could help to register your name and address with the Mailing Preference Service (MPS).

    The MPS is a free service set up by the direct marketing industry to help people who don't want to receive junk mail. It is good practice for organisations to check the MPS list before sending marketing but it is not a legal requirement that they do so.

    To register, contact the MPS www.mpsonline.org.uk

    You can reduce the amount of 'unaddressed’ mail you receive by registering with the Royal Mail's door to door opt-out service. However, this will not stop mail addressed to 'the occupier'.

    Write to:
    Freepost RRBT-2BXB-TTTS,
    Royal Mail Door to Door Opt Outs,
    Kingsmead House, Oxpens Road,
    Oxford, OX1 1RX
    Or email at optout@royalmail.com

    How can I stop an organisation from sending me junk mail?

    If you receive marketing that is addressed to you, the Data Protection Act gives you the right to tell an organisation to stop sending it to you.

    You should write to them by letter or email to tell them to stop using your personal information to send you marketing. When they receive your request they must stop marketing you as soon as they can.

    Suggested letter:



    [Date]

    Dear Sir or Madam

    Notice under the Data Protection Act 1998 not to use my personal information for direct marketing.

    I [your full name] of [your full address] require you to stop / not to begin processing personal information relating to me for direct marketing as soon as possible and in any event within 28 days of the date of this letter / email.

    If you do not normally handle these requests for your organisation, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer or the person who does.

    Please note that if you do not comply with this notice, I can apply to the court for an order against you under the Data Protection Act.

    Yours faithfully
    [Signature]

    If you have written to the organisation to ask them to stop sending you marketing material, but they have continued to send it, then you may wish to report your concerns.

    https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/junk-mail/

    So junk mail sent to 'The Occupier' will still be delivered by Royal Mail unless you write to the company responsible and demand they stop.

    This is the position under Irish data protection law:
    POSTAL MARKETING

    The rules governing postal marketing are mainly contained in Section 2 of the Data Protection Acts.

    Marketing through the post is the traditional and oldest form of direct marketing. For mail to be considered to be direct marketing it must, generally speaking, be addressed to a named person and must be promoting a product or service. Unaddressed mail or mail addressed to "the occupant", "the resident" or "the householder" does not normally involve the use of personal data and consequently data protection legislation would not apply. However, where a data controller can identify "the occupant", "the resident" or "the householder" from the address in conjunction with other data in or likely to come into his possession, this may involve the processing of personal data and data protection requirements would apply. Also, the rules do not normally apply to postal marketing of corporate entities (companies, agencies etc) - including marketing of office-holders within such an entity (provided that the marketing is related to the organisation's business needs and that the details of the named person in receipt were obtained fairly).

    Before you can use personal data for postal marketing, you must tell customers (or potential customers) that you intend to use their data for this purpose and give them an opportunity to refuse such use. Where you yourself have collected the personal data, this should be done at the time of collection (for example, by providing a "tick-box" on a form). Where you have obtained the personal data from a third party - including a source of information that is publicly available by law - the opportunity to refuse direct marketing material must be provided before any such material is sent.
    If any customer objects, you may not use their personal data to directly market them. The individual may withdraw their consent to direct marketing at any time. If your only reason for holding an individual's personal data is direct marketing, then you must erase the personal data from any lists or databases that you hold once the individual has objected.

    You may use names and addresses drawn from the Edited Electoral Register for postal marketing. The "Edited Register" contains a sub-set of the names and addresses on the "Full Register" of voters. Individuals on the Edited Register are those who, when registering to vote, did not object to their personal data being used for marketing or other non-statutory purposes. It is an offence under electoral law to use information drawn from the "Full Register" of electors for direct marketing (or for any other purpose not provided for in legislation). It is also your duty to make sure that you are using the most up-to-date version of the Edited Register (see separate guidance-note).

    https://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/guidance/GeneralGuideDC.htm

    Unless you're going to go to the trouble of getting the names of the people who live at the addresses (with or without Eircodes) where you're sending direct mail to, you're not subject to the data protection rules.

    Getting someone's Eircode doesn't mean you'll have their name too - the databases that you can license (or the Eircode Finder or the free An Post Eircode tools) don't contain personal names.

    So it would be perfectly legal to send out unsolicited marketing materials by post to millions of people, with or without their Eircodes as part of the address, and you wouldn't even be covered by data protection law - as long as you send it to the Occupant/Resident you're not subject to data protection law unless you also had information about their names as well as their addresses/Eircodes.

    If you do want to send direct mail to named individuals, you can get names legitimately from the Edited Electoral Register and use them in conjunction with Eircodes (you would then be subject to data protection law) unless the people tell you to stop.


  • #993
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    The anti Eircode group are continuing their reducto ab absurdum argument, stretching credibility and dredging up unlikely edge cases to justify knocking the whole project. its just ridiculous , its even more ridiculous now that Eircode is implemented


  • #994
    threeiron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭threeiron


    ukoda wrote: »
    But weren't they paid €9 million already for use of their geodirectory by eircode?
    Hopefully it has been resolved if An Post were the cause of the significant delay. It really would be ridiculous and farcical if they are still opposing them to protect their local knowledge relating to one need to be able to find a non-unique address.


  • #995
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭plodder


    GJG wrote:
    A unique postcode was the only viable way to solve Ireland's non-unique address problem. The problems of people misusing Eircode you claim exist would be equally of any unique postcode, whatever the design.
    Correct, but at least you are starting to see there is a trade-off.
    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Yes, I made that same point.



    That's not proof. You've asserted that Eircodes will be handled with less care than they require - the onus is on you to prove this assertion.
    What I said was:
    Postcodes are normally assumed to be anonymous and might not be handled with the same level of care as addresses, which can be assumed to be unique and personal.
    It's not an assertion of fact. It is an opinion, based on the fact that all postcodes in the world apart from Eircode are anonymous, and anonymous information that cannot be tied to individuals is not subject to the same data protection rules as personal information.

    It doesn't matter how many times posters come back and say. "But, but, but ... a UK postcode plus a house number is equivalent". It doesn't matter because postcodes can be automatically extracted from sales information and shipped off to third parties regardless of the privacy guarantees provided by the vendor, and the question is will every website in China or Hong Kong, know that Eircodes should be treated differently and removed from such lists.

    It's really not complicated a point, but it is amusing to observe the twisting and turning around it.
    ...

    So, still no google maps support yet, just a lot of 'I believe' this, that and the other.


  • #996
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    plodder wrote: »
    Correct, but at least you are starting to see there is a trade-off.

    Of course there is a trade-off, there are many of them. That is why the anti-Eircode obsessive(s) can easily find a single point where their pet system is 'superior', but only as long as you ignore all the other requirements.
    plodder wrote: »
    It doesn't matter how many times posters come back and say. "But, but, but ... a UK postcode plus a house number is equivalent". It doesn't matter because postcodes can be automatically extracted from sales information and shipped off to third parties regardless of the privacy guarantees provided by the vendor, and the question is will every website in China or Hong Kong, know that Eircodes should be treated differently and removed from such lists.

    It's really not complicated a point, but it is amusing to observe the twisting and turning around it.

    Plodder, I recognise that you are trying to be constructive, and I don't want to be negative towards you personally, but I think that this demonstrates that you might not have much practical experience on this topic.

    Firstly, if you think that people who are willing to ignore DP best-practice, let alone the law, then the idea that they will carefully extract postcodes only from a customer file to make it, they think, anonymous, then that is a bit naive.

    But moreover, you say that all other postcodes are anonymous. They are not. UK postcodes cover a maximum of 26 dwellings, but often far fewer. Typically, they each cover one side of a street. A highly DP-sensitive use of postcodes is for health statistics. The public good in having very accurate locality information when investigating environmental causes or targeting treatment services is obvious.

    But what about releasing to researchers 'anonymised' location data of HIV infections by type? How would you feel about releasing the male-to-male sexual transmission data, if you were the only gay couple living on the street? Equally German postcodes, with up to 100k residents, might hamper looking for clusters of childhood illness, to get early warning of an epidemic.

    Obviously, there are different levels of anonymisation that are suitable for different uses. There is a job to be done in establishing what is suitable for what, and making, communicating and enforcing sensible rules. The DPA should have been all over this with, but there is nothing on their website about this other than vague blathering.

    Fortunately, Eircode can do this better than almost any other system, because it is easy to build a system that converts Eircode into any other location division, be it Dáil constituency or Small Area. The fact that this hasn't been done yet, or that people may use Eircode wrongly, is hardly the fault of Eircode


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  • #997
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we get back to discussing implementation rather than straying into design.


  • #998
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭plodder


    ^
    Re post above I am happy to continue this discussion on the other thread. Though this discussion isn't really about design. It's about the decision of paypal to implement eircode and require it for all users.
    GJG wrote: »
    Of course there is a trade-off, there are many of them. That is why the anti-Eircode obsessive(s) can easily find a single point where their pet system is 'superior', but only as long as you ignore all the other requirements.



    Plodder, I recognise that you are trying to be constructive, and I don't want to be negative towards you personally, but I think that this demonstrates that you might not have much practical experience on this topic.
    I'm working in IT nearly 30 years, including dealing with software security. So, why don't we just stick with discussing the issues?
    Firstly, if you think that people who are willing to ignore DP best-practice, let alone the law, then the idea that they will carefully extract postcodes only from a customer file to make it, they think, anonymous, then that is a bit naive.
    :confused: if customer transactions are stored in a database, it is the easiest thing in the world to extract information piecemeal, eg a list of all product purchases together with the postcodes of the purchaser, and nothing else. This is what they do. For example, it is conceivable that amazon.com might produce lists of book purchases by postcode, and sell/provide that information to book publishers or distributors, who might then use it for stocking shelves in bookshops. That's hardly stretching credulity is it. Now, when analyzing Irish book purchases the following things could happen:
    a) they know about Eircode. So they license the ECAD and convert Eircodes into some other anonymised area code.
    b) they think a) is too much trouble so they just dump Irish stats from their analytics altogether
    c) they don't know about Eircode (unlikely in this case) and the raw eircodes get delivered along with postcodes from elsewhere.
    But moreover, you say that all other postcodes are anonymous. They are not. UK postcodes cover a maximum of 26 dwellings, but often far fewer. Typically, they each cover one side of a street. A highly DP-sensitive use of postcodes is for health statistics. The public good in having very accurate locality information when investigating environmental causes or targeting treatment services is obvious.

    But what about releasing to researchers 'anonymised' location data of HIV infections by type? How would you feel about releasing the male-to-male sexual transmission data, if you were the only gay couple living on the street? Equally German postcodes, with up to 100k residents, might hamper looking for clusters of childhood illness, to get early warning of an epidemic.

    Obviously, there are different levels of anonymisation that are suitable for different uses. There is a job to be done in establishing what is suitable for what, and making, communicating and enforcing sensible rules. The DPA should have been all over this with, but there is nothing on their website about this other than vague blathering.

    Fortunately, Eircode can do this better than almost any other system, because it is easy to build a system that converts Eircode into any other location division, be it Dáil constituency or Small Area. The fact that this hasn't been done yet, or that people may use Eircode wrongly, is hardly the fault of Eircode
    We're not talking about health statistics though. Extra precautions are needed when dealing with that type of data. We're talking about more mundane things like purchases on websites. I gave examples before of privacy policies on websites where they say they will keep your personal information private, but reserve the right to share other information, including postcodes. It is those kind of organisations that are at risk of divulging Eircodes improperly, if they don't know that Eircodes need to be handled differently. It is probably fair to assume that large reputable organisations, will do that, especially if they have a presence in this country, but there is a risk that not all will.


  • #999
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Mentioned before, SUSI Grants system using eircode, estimate they'll save 250,000 staff hours a year now that the staff won't have to look up Google maps.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/student-grants-could-be-slashed-by-half-in-postcode-overhaul-34557703.html


  • #1000
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Have any of you folks got your Census forms yet? First use of Eircode in my experience.


  • #1001
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Driving licence form asks for 'Postcode' and does not have correct format, but still ......


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  • #1002
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Have any of you folks got your Census forms yet? First use of Eircode in my experience.

    Did the Census enumerator give you any instructions about Eircodes - it looks a bit vague on the form as to where they should be inserted?


  • #1003
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    clewbays wrote: »
    Did the Census enumerator give you any instructions about Eircodes - it looks a bit vague on the form as to where they should be inserted?

    Mine arrived with eircode pre populated, wasn't mentioned in conversation with enumerator


  • #1004
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    Interesting description of an addressing project in Zambia which will involve naming streets, numbering houses, and assigning postcodes:

    http://www.zicta.zm/Views/Publications/FINANCING%20PROPOSAL%20FOR%20NADS.pdf

    as Plodder repeatedly says the old 1950s postcodes are non-unique on their own but what granularity will 21st century postcodes have and will they be integrated with GPS functionality?


  • #1005
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    ukoda wrote: »
    Mine arrived with eircode pre populated, wasn't mentioned in conversation with enumerator

    I wonder whether non-unique addresses are pre-populated with an Eircode which would put CSO ahead of the game. They probably are if CSO are using geodirectory. Was any mention made in relation to the Eircode of where you work?


  • #1006
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    clewbays wrote: »
    I wonder whether non-unique addresses are pre-populated with an Eircode which would put CSO ahead of the game. They probably are if CSO are using geodirectory. Was any mention made in relation to the Eircode of where you work?

    Not mentioned. The word "eircode" does not appear anywhere on the form either. It only asks for your address, every section for an address has a 7 character line at the end, I assume for eircode, but it's not labelled


  • #1007
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    clewbays wrote: »
    I wonder whether non-unique addresses are pre-populated with an Eircode which would put CSO ahead of the game. They probably are if CSO are using geodirectory. Was any mention made in relation to the Eircode of where you work?

    Well I live in the countryside, with typical townland address. Our census form was not pre-populated with the eircode, he copied it from his own master list into our census form.

    He has 500 addresses to complete, which is probably a five mile by five mile square area.


  • #1008
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Well I live in the countryside, with typical townland address. Our census form was not pre-populated with the eircode, he copied it from his own master list into our census form.
    Did he ask you to verify it or was he using a map to be sure of the exact location?


  • #1009
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    plodder wrote: »
    the question is will every website in China or Hong Kong, know that Eircodes should be treated differently and removed from such lists.

    It's really not complicated a point, but it is amusing to observe the twisting and turning around it.

    ...

    What's amusing is that now you're resorting to the 'Chinese won't understand it' gambit...

    What would a Chinese business do if they had your Eircode?


  • #1010
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    marmurr1916 wrote: »

    What would a Chinese business do if they had your Eircode?

    SOMETHING!! They could do something with it. You won't get a credible example out of plodder or anyone really (as even the data protection officer "struggles to think of a reviting example") of a privacy breach specfically from having eircode and only from having eircodes. But that's not the point, for eircode detractors, it's enough to make a vague claim designed to elicit fear of eircode


  • #1011
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    clewbays wrote: »
    Did he ask you to verify it or was he using a map to be sure of the exact location?

    He had a map showing the boundries of his alloted area.
    Each dwelling was shown with the eircode printed beside each house.
    Quite like the Dept.Ag. mapping showing land parcel identifiers, just not in photo form.
    He cross referenced my name as householder with the eircode. He also inquired about several houses in the immediate locality which are unoccupied and noted this.


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  • #1012
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    HERE maps need to get to work on this :

    ojNSjcW.jpg


  • #1013
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭plodder


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    ...

    What's amusing is that now you're resorting to the 'Chinese won't understand it' gambit...

    What would a Chinese business do if they had your Eircode?
    They might inadvertently end up releasing personal information contrary to their privacy policy.

    Keep asking the same question and you're going to keep getting the same answer.


  • #1014
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    Originally Posted by marmurr1916 viewpost.gif
    ...

    What's amusing is that now you're resorting to the 'Chinese won't understand it' gambit...

    What would a Chinese business do if they had your Eircode?

    They might inadvertently end up releasing personal information contrary to their privacy policy.

    Keep asking the same question and you're going to keep getting the same answer.

    Are you implying they would be inferior ?

    Or are you trying to get another thread locked up for drifting


  • #1015
    BailMeOut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭BailMeOut


    ukoda wrote: »
    Mentioned before, SUSI Grants system using eircode, estimate they'll save 250,000 staff hours a year now that the staff won't have to look up Google maps.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/student-grants-could-be-slashed-by-half-in-postcode-overhaul-34557703.html

    250,000 hours a year? So SUSI savings over 10 years will pay for entire eircode system!


  • #1016
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    plodder wrote: »
    They might inadvertently end up releasing personal information contrary to their privacy policy.

    Keep asking the same question and you're going to keep getting the same answer.

    shocked-woman.jpg


  • #1017
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    plodder wrote: »
    They might inadvertently end up releasing personal information contrary to their privacy policy.

    Keep asking the same question and you're going to keep getting the same answer.

    which any company can do today with or without eircode , so what , it that regards compliance with data protection is essentially voluntary


  • #1018
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭plodder


    BoatMad wrote: »
    They might inadvertently end up releasing personal information contrary to their privacy policy.
    which any company can do today with or without eircode , so what , it that regards compliance with data protection is essentially voluntary
    merrygoround.jpg


  • #1019
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    BailMeOut wrote: »
    250,000 hours a year? So SUSI savings over 10 years will pay for entire eircode system!

    That's pretty stunning. Even if you take a full cost of employment at €50 per hour - modest by PS standards - that save the taxpayer €12.5m per year. It won't take anything like 10 years to make back the cost of Eircode, not even three years.

    If the government had the drive to implement that sort of efficiency across the public sector, it gives you an idea just how big the benefit for the taxpayer.


  • #1020
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭plodder


    SUSI receives around 100,000 applications per year. So, does this mean they were spending two hours per application looking up google maps?

    Must have shockin' slow broadband or something.... :eek:


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  • #1021
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    SUSI receives around 100,000 applications per year. So, does this mean they were spending two hours per application looking up google maps?

    Must have shockin' slow broadband or something.... :eek:

    Considering the amount of rural people applying for grants I'd say a considerable amount of time was spent on non unique addressees following up, put it into google maps and how do you know what house it is? And how far away is it from the college? I better ring them and ask because it's not clear, How many phone calls per application to get to speak to someone who can actually provide an accurate location of the house? Do they describe the site while the SUSI worker scrolls around Google maps trying to find it?

    Now it's, pop eircode in, job done.

    To take such a simplistic approach and divide hours saved per application is naive. You clearly don't know much about running a business and process improvement.


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