Litter fine received, advice needed

Krusader · 29-03-2016 04:44AM #1

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

ezra_pound · 29-03-2016 04:45AM

Krusader wrote: »

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

Were you the last registered owner?

Krusader · 29-03-2016 04:49AM

Yes, at the time the rubbish was found

sparksfly · 29-03-2016 04:51AM

Krusader wrote: »

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

You should have proof that you no longer own the car, you either sold it or scrapped it.
Bring this to court and it should be struck out.
Sorry,there were no other reply's when I started typing. Any idea how the plate ended up in the rubbish?

Krusader · 29-03-2016 04:54AM

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?

I have no idea how it got there. I bought the car in Carlow in Nov 2014. I live and work in dublin and have no business being down around the curragh

sparksfly · 29-03-2016 04:57AM

Krusader wrote: »

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?

If you have a convincing reason as to how the plate ended up in the rubbish I would chance presenting it in court.

Pawwed Rig · 29-03-2016 04:59AM

Krusader wrote: »

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?

If it was your car then you are responsible for it. How did you dispose of it or are you saying one of the previous owners had a spare reg? Confused about what your saying here tbh

Grab All Association · 29-03-2016 05:03AM

Doesn't sound like they have much of a case in my opinion . What's to say a previous owner had a trailer/horsebox/caravan, changed the plate for cosmetic reasons/sale or it was stolen by someone, identity theft/cloning etc

They have no other evidence linking you to this

ezra_pound · 29-03-2016 05:04AM

If the fixed penalty is 150, I'd definitely be cautious about considering not paying it now and taking it to court without legal advice first. Maximum fine is 3000 and you could be made pay their legal costs and their costs in investigation / cleaning up etc.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

Pretty sure court fines for this are always pretty high compared to motoring offences so if it was me I'd probably just cut my losses and pay the 150 and move on - even though it seems so wrong if you're innocent.

Hopefully you might get more encouraging advice later. Good luck!

Krusader · 29-03-2016 05:04AM

Pawwed Rig wrote:

If it was your car then you are responsible for it. How did you dispose of it or are you saying one of the previous owners had a spare reg? Confused about what your saying here tbh

One of the owners must have had a spare reg.

Krusader · 29-03-2016 05:07AM

@ezra_pound
This is my worry, hence why I'm posting this when I should be sound asleep.

There goes my faith in justice and the law of the land

ezra_pound · 29-03-2016 05:14AM

If it was me I'd pay the 150 today and sleep soundly for the rest of the week.

I wouldn't consider it unjust, just the cost of convenience - not having to go to court, seek legal advice, and pay for it etc.

**** happens - 150 is not that bad! Next time you blow 150 you'll probably have a hangover.

Krusader · 29-03-2016 05:20AM

ezra_pound wrote:

If it was me I'd pay the 150 today and sleep soundly for the rest of the week.

To me it's a ploy. They make the fine reasonable affordable so it's the better option to pay than take it to court. It's a scam. If I was well off I'd take my day in court.

Pawwed Rig · 29-03-2016 05:25AM

Where is the car now? Have you evidence that it has both reg intact?

Krusader · 29-03-2016 05:27AM

Pawwed Rig wrote:

Where is the car now? Have you evidence that it has both reg intact?

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

Pawwed Rig · 29-03-2016 05:33AM

Krusader wrote: »

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

We get there at last

.
So you have evidence you disposed of it responsibly then presumably with regs attached.
I would contact the council and tell them the details and ask them to cancel the fine.
If not then I would tell the same story to a judge.

Esel · 29-03-2016 06:45AM

Krusader wrote: »

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

Presume you mean at least Sunday week last? (Otherwise you could not have this issue).

I hope you obtained something in writing from the person you sold the car to.

If they are not a reputable disposer of end-of-life vehicles, then it is very plausible that the registration plate(s) from your car ended up dumped somewhere along with other rubbish.

Have you actually received an 'ultimatum' about this?

Have you contacted the council to explain the facts from your side?

Personally, I would not roll over for this. It is probably a long way from court, and if it gets that far you have a good version of events.

TL/dr Write to the council; explain your position, and ask them for a description of the circumstances in which the reg plate was found.

Even if all the other rubbish was from the car you had previously sold, you are not responsible.

Next time though (if you didn't this time) get a proper receipt from the person you sell the car to. Preferably someone you contacted first rather than a 'cold caller'.

Krusader · 29-03-2016 06:54AM

I contacted the council and I told them I wasn't liable for the rubbish and what evidence they had.

The time the incident occurred I was the registered owner of the car.

They showed me pics of rubbish in a field with a reg plate. I told them I felt they had no basis to fine me but they said they are going ahead with it anyway.

I received the solicitors letter on Saturday, either pay the fine or there will be legal proceedings.

Hemerodrome · 29-03-2016 07:17AM

Any chance of a timeline of events, when you bought the car, when the rubbish was found, when you disposed of the car etc?

zoobizoo · 29-03-2016 07:28AM

I got a litter fine when my old housemate dumped domestic litter in a public bin and a letter addressed to me (at my parents address) was discovered in it.

I had moved out of the house at that stage and was actually on the town's Tidy Towns committee.

anyway, emailed the council with all the info - they weren't buying it and had a day in court.

Had a letter from my new landlord saying that I had been living there when the rubbish was found.

Case was struck out.

Had I not turned up in court though who knows what the fine could have been

Krusader · 29-03-2016 08:45AM

Hemerodrome wrote:

Any chance of a timeline of events, when you bought the car, when the rubbish was found, when you disposed of the car etc?

Car was bought in November 2014.
Rubbish was discovered on the 30th October 2015.
Sold car on 28th March 2016

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 29-03-2016 08:52AM

Was there any other 'evidence' or only the reg plate?

A dirty job to go through someone else's rubbish, but can you ask them for the rubbish or has it already been dumped?

Esel · 29-03-2016 09:59AM

Krusader wrote: »

Car was bought in November 2014.
Rubbish was discovered on the 30th October 2015.
Sold car on 28th March 2016

Bit of a problem with that timeline!

You sold the car yesterday, but a plate with the car reg no was found with rubbish almost five months ago?

Did you by any chance have to replace the plate (e.g. for NCT) sometime before 30th October and bin the duff plate? If so, is it possible that whoever you got to take your rubbish away might have fly-tipped it?

It's looking like you may have to bite the bullet on this one...

VincePP · 29-03-2016 10:12AM

You can take your chances in the district court, but you have a good chance of getting Judge Zaidan and he hates bullsh1t and excuses and judging by above, he will apply about €2,000 fine (that's his favourite number for litter louts)

franer1970 · 29-03-2016 10:49AM

Esel wrote: »

Bit of a problem with that timeline!

You sold the car yesterday, but a plate with the car reg no was found with rubbish almost five months ago?

Did you by any chance have to replace the plate (e.g. for NCT) sometime before 30th October and bin the duff plate? If so, is it possible that whoever you got to take your rubbish away might have fly-tipped it?

It's looking like you may have to bite the bullet on this one...

The car has had multiple owners in the past, any of whom may have replaced the number plates, had one made for a trailer etc. and disposed of the old one on the Curragh at any time after they've sold on the vehicle. Judge would surely take that into consideration? No evidence that the OP dumped it.
What next - will they start fining anyone who happens to have a photograph of their car found as litter? In a classic car magazine say??

Esel · 29-03-2016 11:00AM

franer1970 wrote: »

The car has had multiple owners in the past, any of whom may have replaced the number plates, had one made for a trailer etc. and disposed of the old one on the Curragh at any time after they've sold on the vehicle. Judge would surely take that into consideration? No evidence that the OP dumped it.

Good argument.

sillysmiles · 29-03-2016 11:28AM

franer1970 wrote: »

No evidence that the OP dumped it.

No evidence that the OP didn't dump it either, other than his say so.

I'm not question the OP here, I believe him, but objectively the reg plate of his car was found in a pile of rubbish on the curragh. Without anything else you would expect the county council to fine the offender.

It is highly unlike that the rubbish has been kept as evidence and in this instance I think I would just pay the fine.

How much would a solicitor cost? And the risk that once in court you still get hit with a larger fine.

slavetothegrind · 29-03-2016 11:44AM

I would not pay the fine, the burden of proof is on the state office here, you are innocent.
bad enough you will have to take time off to attend court but bear in mind the local rag will be reporting you as a convicted litterer!!!!

Best of luck!

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-03-2016 11:54AM

Is it just me or does this sound like a person was using the number of a car and then dumped the plate, a ringer.

esforum · 29-03-2016 11:58AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Is it just me or does this sound like a person was using the number of a car and then dumped the plate, a ringer.

It sounds more like someone changed the plate at some stage and while emptying the garage / shed they dumped it alongwith all the other useless stuff they had.

I would go to court if it was me but thats just personal preference

Courtn2 · 29-03-2016 12:06PM

Hiya,

my 2 cents - slave is correct - burden of proof is with Co. Council.
Had a similar (but not identical) issue a few years ago.

Got a car parking fine for a time when I wasn't in the country. I queried it and it turned out the Garda had incorrectly input
the details in the computer, leaving out an initial "1" from the handwritten ticket, so not only was my fine quashed, but the
one that was correct (and they were able to identify from the handwritten ticket) couldn't stand either. I believe the real owner got fine notices as well, as the one I got was the "final" threat of court, having supposedly ignored previous versions.

The point is, if they can't prove 100%, they probably won't get any traction.

2 queries here - in the photographs of the plate - did it clearly match your reg, or is it just their say-so?
If not clear, ask to see the plate. If they can't produce, you should have no worries.

Secondly, you need to have your narrative clear as to when you bought the car, where it would normally be at that time
and when/how it was disposed of - documentation will help?

The Co. Council will probably not back down in any case, as it's routine for them.

If you have a solicitor for other reasons, it's worth giving them a call. Some will actually give quick guidance on the phone free of charge for existing clients (they're not all attack hamsters).

Hope this helps - at the end of the day you have to weigh up the risk vs what's in your favour

Litter fine received, advice needed

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