Litter fine received, advice needed

Krusader

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

ezra_pound

Krusader wrote: »

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

Were you the last registered owner?

Krusader

Yes, at the time the rubbish was found

sparksfly

Krusader wrote: »

Hi, I'm receiving a fine for a litter crime that I didn't commit.
Kildare county council have issued the fine based on they found a reg plate of a car I owned with a pile of rubbish in a field near the curragh. The car was 15 years old with multiple owners

I have received an ultimatum letter from a solicitor acting on behalf of kildare county council, pay the fine or I'll be heading to the district court. I really do not wish to pay the fine for something I didn't commit but fear I am being bullied into having to.
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed.

You should have proof that you no longer own the car, you either sold it or scrapped it.
Bring this to court and it should be struck out.
Sorry,there were no other reply's when I started typing. Any idea how the plate ended up in the rubbish?

Krusader

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?


I have no idea how it got there. I bought the car in Carlow in Nov 2014. I live and work in dublin and have no business being down around the curragh

sparksfly

Krusader wrote: »

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?

If you have a convincing reason as to how the plate ended up in the rubbish I would chance presenting it in court.

Pawwed Rig

Krusader wrote: »

I owned the car at the time the crime was committed, does this have a factor in it?

If it was your car then you are responsible for it. How did you dispose of it or are you saying one of the previous owners had a spare reg? Confused about what your saying here tbh

Grab All Association

Doesn't sound like they have much of a case in my opinion . What's to say a previous owner had a trailer/horsebox/caravan, changed the plate for cosmetic reasons/sale or it was stolen by someone, identity theft/cloning etc

They have no other evidence linking you to this

ezra_pound

If the fixed penalty is 150, I'd definitely be cautious about considering not paying it now and taking it to court without legal advice first. Maximum fine is 3000 and you could be made pay their legal costs and their costs in investigation / cleaning up etc.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

Pretty sure court fines for this are always pretty high compared to motoring offences so if it was me I'd probably just cut my losses and pay the 150 and move on - even though it seems so wrong if you're innocent.

Hopefully you might get more encouraging advice later. Good luck!

Krusader

Pawwed Rig wrote:

If it was your car then you are responsible for it. How did you dispose of it or are you saying one of the previous owners had a spare reg? Confused about what your saying here tbh

One of the owners must have had a spare reg.

Krusader

@ezra_pound
This is my worry, hence why I'm posting this when I should be sound asleep.

There goes my faith in justice and the law of the land

ezra_pound

If it was me I'd pay the 150 today and sleep soundly for the rest of the week.

I wouldn't consider it unjust, just the cost of convenience - not having to go to court, seek legal advice, and pay for it etc.


**** happens - 150 is not that bad! Next time you blow 150 you'll probably have a hangover.

Krusader

ezra_pound wrote:

If it was me I'd pay the 150 today and sleep soundly for the rest of the week.

To me it's a ploy. They make the fine reasonable affordable so it's the better option to pay than take it to court. It's a scam. If I was well off I'd take my day in court.

Pawwed Rig

Where is the car now? Have you evidence that it has both reg intact?

Krusader

Pawwed Rig wrote:

Where is the car now? Have you evidence that it has both reg intact?

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

Pawwed Rig

Krusader wrote: »

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

We get there at last .
So you have evidence you disposed of it responsibly then presumably with regs attached.
I would contact the council and tell them the details and ask them to cancel the fine.
If not then I would tell the same story to a judge.

Esel

Krusader wrote: »

Car was sold on Sunday for scrap

Presume you mean at least Sunday week last? (Otherwise you could not have this issue).

I hope you obtained something in writing from the person you sold the car to.

If they are not a reputable disposer of end-of-life vehicles, then it is very plausible that the registration plate(s) from your car ended up dumped somewhere along with other rubbish.

Have you actually received an 'ultimatum' about this?

Have you contacted the council to explain the facts from your side?

Personally, I would not roll over for this. It is probably a long way from court, and if it gets that far you have a good version of events.

TL/dr Write to the council; explain your position, and ask them for a description of the circumstances in which the reg plate was found.

Even if all the other rubbish was from the car you had previously sold, you are not responsible.

Next time though (if you didn't this time) get a proper receipt from the person you sell the car to. Preferably someone you contacted first rather than a 'cold caller'.

Krusader

I contacted the council and I told them I wasn't liable for the rubbish and what evidence they had.

The time the incident occurred I was the registered owner of the car.

They showed me pics of rubbish in a field with a reg plate. I told them I felt they had no basis to fine me but they said they are going ahead with it anyway.

I received the solicitors letter on Saturday, either pay the fine or there will be legal proceedings.

Hemerodrome

Any chance of a timeline of events, when you bought the car, when the rubbish was found, when you disposed of the car etc?

zoobizoo

I got a litter fine when my old housemate dumped domestic litter in a public bin and a letter addressed to me (at my parents address) was discovered in it.

I had moved out of the house at that stage and was actually on the town's Tidy Towns committee.

anyway, emailed the council with all the info - they weren't buying it and had a day in court.

Had a letter from my new landlord saying that I had been living there when the rubbish was found.

Case was struck out.

Had I not turned up in court though who knows what the fine could have been

Krusader

Hemerodrome wrote:

Any chance of a timeline of events, when you bought the car, when the rubbish was found, when you disposed of the car etc?

Car was bought in November 2014.
Rubbish was discovered on the 30th October 2015.
Sold car on 28th March 2016

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Was there any other 'evidence' or only the reg plate?

A dirty job to go through someone else's rubbish, but can you ask them for the rubbish or has it already been dumped?

Esel

Krusader wrote: »

Car was bought in November 2014.
Rubbish was discovered on the 30th October 2015.
Sold car on 28th March 2016

Bit of a problem with that timeline!

You sold the car yesterday, but a plate with the car reg no was found with rubbish almost five months ago?

Did you by any chance have to replace the plate (e.g. for NCT) sometime before 30th October and bin the duff plate? If so, is it possible that whoever you got to take your rubbish away might have fly-tipped it?

It's looking like you may have to bite the bullet on this one...

VincePP

You can take your chances in the district court, but you have a good chance of getting Judge Zaidan and he hates bullsh1t and excuses and judging by above, he will apply about €2,000 fine (that's his favourite number for litter louts)

franer1970

Esel wrote: »

Bit of a problem with that timeline!

You sold the car yesterday, but a plate with the car reg no was found with rubbish almost five months ago?

Did you by any chance have to replace the plate (e.g. for NCT) sometime before 30th October and bin the duff plate? If so, is it possible that whoever you got to take your rubbish away might have fly-tipped it?

It's looking like you may have to bite the bullet on this one...

The car has had multiple owners in the past, any of whom may have replaced the number plates, had one made for a trailer etc. and disposed of the old one on the Curragh at any time after they've sold on the vehicle. Judge would surely take that into consideration? No evidence that the OP dumped it.
What next - will they start fining anyone who happens to have a photograph of their car found as litter? In a classic car magazine say??

Esel

franer1970 wrote: »

The car has had multiple owners in the past, any of whom may have replaced the number plates, had one made for a trailer etc. and disposed of the old one on the Curragh at any time after they've sold on the vehicle. Judge would surely take that into consideration? No evidence that the OP dumped it.

Good argument.

sillysmiles

franer1970 wrote: »

No evidence that the OP dumped it.

No evidence that the OP didn't dump it either, other than his say so.

I'm not question the OP here, I believe him, but objectively the reg plate of his car was found in a pile of rubbish on the curragh. Without anything else you would expect the county council to fine the offender.

It is highly unlike that the rubbish has been kept as evidence and in this instance I think I would just pay the fine.

How much would a solicitor cost? And the risk that once in court you still get hit with a larger fine.

slavetothegrind

I would not pay the fine, the burden of proof is on the state office here, you are innocent.
bad enough you will have to take time off to attend court but bear in mind the local rag will be reporting you as a convicted litterer!!!!

Best of luck!

Pro Hoc Vice

Is it just me or does this sound like a person was using the number of a car and then dumped the plate, a ringer.

esforum

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Is it just me or does this sound like a person was using the number of a car and then dumped the plate, a ringer.

It sounds more like someone changed the plate at some stage and while emptying the garage / shed they dumped it alongwith all the other useless stuff they had.

I would go to court if it was me but thats just personal preference

Courtn2

Hiya,

my 2 cents - slave is correct - burden of proof is with Co. Council.
Had a similar (but not identical) issue a few years ago.

Got a car parking fine for a time when I wasn't in the country. I queried it and it turned out the Garda had incorrectly input
the details in the computer, leaving out an initial "1" from the handwritten ticket, so not only was my fine quashed, but the
one that was correct (and they were able to identify from the handwritten ticket) couldn't stand either. I believe the real owner got fine notices as well, as the one I got was the "final" threat of court, having supposedly ignored previous versions.

The point is, if they can't prove 100%, they probably won't get any traction.

2 queries here - in the photographs of the plate - did it clearly match your reg, or is it just their say-so?
If not clear, ask to see the plate. If they can't produce, you should have no worries.

Secondly, you need to have your narrative clear as to when you bought the car, where it would normally be at that time
and when/how it was disposed of - documentation will help?

The Co. Council will probably not back down in any case, as it's routine for them.

If you have a solicitor for other reasons, it's worth giving them a call. Some will actually give quick guidance on the phone free of charge for existing clients (they're not all attack hamsters).

Hope this helps - at the end of the day you have to weigh up the risk vs what's in your favour

zoobizoo

Courtn2 wrote: »

The Co. Council will probably not back down in any case, as it's routine for them.

Yep - I spoke to the litter warden on the day and he was very polite to me and said that once the wheels were in motion, it had to go to court.

As for Solicitor, I didn't go to court with one. (on previous occasions when up for speeding fines, I've just asked one outside the court house for a bit of advice - they're usually grand).

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bucketybuck

sillysmiles wrote: »

No evidence that the OP didn't dump it either, other than his say so.

I'm not sure thats how these things work, surely the onus is on the accuser to prove guilt? The OP doesn't need to prove innocence.

Otherwise, if I had an enemy I'd just note his registration, get a number plate made up and dump it with a bag of rubbish in a field somewhere, then laugh at him as he gets fined.

stoplooklisten

People make up false plates for robberies and things. It could be something like that. Any chance finding out where it was made, or where the current plate was made?

kingtut

If I was in your position I would definitely go to court, in fact I would be onto the solicitor stating that I am innocent and more than happy to attend court.

MarkR

I presume your car had both it's plates attached when you scrapped it, and you never had any stolen off it while you had it?

marklazarcovic

Totaly irish thing that a car numberplate that could have had 15 owners ,in fact there may have been 5 of the same plate at one stage or another,owned by 15 people ,is found in a field,and the last registered owner of the car it may once have been attached to is 100% responsible for it ..haha..

Bully boy tactics

foggy_lad

franer1970 wrote: »

The car has had multiple owners in the past, any of whom may have replaced the number plates, had one made for a trailer etc. and disposed of the old one on the Curragh at any time after they've sold on the vehicle. Judge would surely take that into consideration? No evidence that the OP dumped it.
What next - will they start fining anyone who happens to have a photograph of their car found as litter? In a classic car magazine say??

OP if you can you should get photos of the car with the plates intact or at least something from the scrap merchant that they were both on the car when you dumped it.

Then go to court and explain that you have never removed the plates for any reason and have never had extra plates made up for a trailer or other reason.

We can forget the stories about stolen cars, ringers etc and stick with what is known, this car had several owners and you were the last, any of those owners could have had a scrape and needed to replace the plate or may have had plates made for a trailer which they may have discarded once they sold on the car.

Have the council sent letters/fines to all previous owners of the vehicle? because one of them are far more likely to have dumped the plate rather than someone who has the car in daily use. Did they find any other addresses or details of others in the rubbish who they have sent similar fines to?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

taytobreath

it would be no harm in showing evidence to the council or the court that you have been disposing of your household waste legally at the time of the alleged offence. That would add weight to your defense.

esforum

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Its not a criminal prosecution though so they dont need to

goldenhoarde

esforum wrote: »

Its not a criminal prosecution though so they dont need to

Exactly. They have searched the litter and have found evidence in it of the owner. Maybe this was the only evidence that they found. You could go to court (I'd have a solicitor if you do) and plead your case but it would probably come down to the judge. as to how it goes. They may go with your story or not. Ask the litter warden for more info on what the rubbish was made up of. You may then be able to show that the rubbish was commercial etc and not household (assumes you don't have a business) so was not yours. As its not a criminal matter the burden of proof is way lower so the number plate may be enough in the judges eyes. the Co Co thinks its enough and they may have won cases with this type of evidence in the past.

taken from -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

If a local authority can establish who owns material that has been illegally dumped, the owner has a case to answer, even if they haven’t been caught in the act of dumping.

Gerry T

If the car is just sold go back to the new owner and ask does he still have the car, is he breaking it for parts?
If he has 2 reg plates ask for them and you should be fine

ohnonotgmail

Gerry T wrote: »

If the car is just sold go back to the new owner and ask does he still have the car, is he breaking it for parts?
If he has 2 reg plates ask for them and you should be fine

Car was bought in November 2014.
Rubbish was discovered on the 30th October 2015.
Sold car on 28th March 2016

So it wasnt the case that the car was just sold when the litter was discovered.

stoplooklisten

taytobreath wrote: »

it would be no harm in showing evidence to the council or the court that you have been disposing of your household waste legally at the time of the alleged offence. That would add weight to your defense.

This. Have you proof of disposing your waste correctly, receipts etc.

Zillah

The timing of the scrapping is going to look strange, though, no? When did you receive the solicitor's letter? Destroying the vehicle just as the question of who was responsible for its license plate being dumped comes to a head is a very odd decision.

GM228

esforum wrote: »

Its not a criminal prosecution though so they dont need to

I always tought littering was dealth with as a criminal offence.

But I take it you are saying this is dealth with as a civil issue - i.e on the balance of probability? I'm certain that is incorrect.

Pro Hoc Vice

esforum wrote: »

Its not a criminal prosecution though so they dont need to

Of course it is a criminal matter, it is covered by

24.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/12/enacted/en/print#sec24

In fact section 24 amended

24.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable—

(a) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €130,000, or

(b) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/act/27/section/58/enacted/en/html#sec58

Summary or indictment and conviction leading to a penalty ergo criminal.

foggy_lad

goldenhoarde wrote: »

Exactly. They have searched the litter and have found evidence in it of the owner. Maybe this was the only evidence that they found. You could go to court (I'd have a solicitor if you do) and plead your case but it would probably come down to the judge. as to how it goes. They may go with your story or not. Ask the litter warden for more info on what the rubbish was made up of. You may then be able to show that the rubbish was commercial etc and not household (assumes you don't have a business) so was not yours. As its not a criminal matter the burden of proof is way lower so the number plate may be enough in the judges eyes. the Co Co thinks its enough and they may have won cases with this type of evidence in the past.

taken from -> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

If a local authority can establish who owns material that has been illegally dumped, the owner has a case to answer, even if they haven’t been caught in the act of dumping.

They found evidence of only one owner of many owners of that vehicle, any other owner could have disposed of a replaced plate or a plate from a trailer.

OP did the car have a towing hitch fitted when you bought it?

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

I always tought littering was dealth with as a criminal offence.

But I take it you are saying this is dealty with as a civil issue - i.e on the balance of probability.

It is a criminal matter and requires to the best of my knowledge proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I had a quick look at the act and did not see any reduction of the burden.