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Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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Comments

  • #482
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    doireannod wrote: »
    Absolutely not. What I prescribe is my responsibility. Not the pharmacists'. If I prescribe a lethal dose of insulin I take responsibility for that. Not the pharmacist.

    I don't rely on the lab to phone me with the result. The onus is on the person who takes the sample to follow up the result. Again, fully my responsibility. Not the lab's.

    If a patient died due to a lethal dose of a medicine resulting in a lethal electrolyte imbalance do you honestly think anyone except the doctor is responsible for that?

    I assume full responsibility for patient care. But the claims mentioned by the article don't mention of they're about patient care or not. The claim could be against catering staff for spilling boiling water on a colleague's hand. No details about the events leading to "payouts" are given. It does mention that a lot of claims were made due to damage to personal property.

    What do you mean about a surgeon taking out a healthy organ based on an erroneous lab result despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data? Can you give an example here?

    That's happened once in the past, a horrible situation. There was a misplaced/swapped slide for an organ in an unwell patient showing a high grade tumour, no evidence of mets, decision was made to remove the organ asap to prevent spread. When removed there was no evidence of malignancy. Horrible situation for patient.


  • #483
    doireannod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭doireannod


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    That's happened once in the past, a horrible situation. There was a misplaced/swapped slide for an organ in an unwell patient showing a high grade tumour, no evidence of mets, decision was made to remove the organ asap to prevent spread. When removed there was no evidence of malignancy. Horrible situation for patient.

    So the misplaced slide is the error here. This was a system error. No one individual is at fault here. A chain of errors lead to this.


  • #484
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    doireannod wrote: »

    You've edited the post after I responded to include reference to a doctor fainting on a patient bed and doctors crashing theit cars due to exhaustion. My response remains the same.

    1. Do you think doctors collapsing due to exhaustion amounts to "screwing up"?

    2. Do you think these incidents give rise to The HSE giving pay outs? And if you think they do, do you think
    - a) the payout went to the doctor who claimed against The HSE for breech of contract (working too many hours)

    -b) the payout went to patients who have made claims against The HSE as they're upset that their doctor collapsed due to exhaustion?


    that bit is a little cranky, but anyway @ 22:35 :
    Last edited by gctest50; Today at 22:35

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99200242&postcount=476
    Today, 22:35 doireannod #477

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99200289&postcount=477

    Today, 22:37 doireannod #478

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99200312&postcount=478


  • #485
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Dingle_berry wrote: »
    It's not ridiculous. Those NCHDs you claim assume full responsibility for patient care, and their consultants, are very quick to point the finger. The crash team who give triple the maximum recommended dose of drugs yet blame the lab when a result (that wasn't requested as urgent) was late. The surgeon who removes a healthy organ based solely on an erroneous lab report - despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data. The obstetricians caring for a woman with frank sepsis and say 'oh the lab never phoned is so we assumed that the WCC was normal'. That's not to mention the very next post you made after assuming full responsibility "

    The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"? It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic."
    If the lab didn't phone you with the potassium of 9.1 you know where you would point the finger. If the pharmacist didn't correct your prescribing errors you wouldn't assume responsibility for the outcome nor defend that pharmacist.


    The lab should definitely ring the ward in some situations, very elevated potassium definitely, Hgb less than 8 in first set of bloods. That's basic stuff really. If someone came into ED at night with a potassium of 7 or 8 and the lab didn't contact someone as soon as the result came through I'd go mental and that would be entirely justified. CRP, WCC, etc. don't matter so much.
    Prescribing errors are the responsibility of the doctor. You sign the bottom of every script and below every drug on a kardex so it's the doctor's mistake, no-one elses.

    Doctors are the ones who make the decisions about patient management, treatment etc so of course they're responsible for patients. The hard thing isn't following protocols, it's making the right decisions when things are uncertain based on the history, examination, bloods and imaging. Doctors make those decisions and it's on them whether they were right or wrong.


  • #486
    Dingle_berry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Dingle_berry


    doireannod wrote: »
    Absolutely not. What I prescribe is my responsibility. Not the pharmacists'. If I prescribe a lethal dose of insulin I take responsibility for that. Not the pharmacist.

    I don't rely on the lab to phone me with the result. The onus is on the person who takes the sample to follow up the result. Again, fully my responsibility. Not the lab's.

    If a patient died due to a lethal dose of a medicine resulting in a lethal electrolyte imbalance do you honestly think anyone except the doctor is responsible for that?

    I assume full responsibility for patient care. But the claims mentioned by the article don't mention if they're about patient care or not. The claim could be against catering staff for spilling boiling water on a colleague's hand. No details about the events leading to "payouts" are given. It does mention that a lot of claims were made due to damage to personal property.

    What do you mean about a surgeon taking out a healthy organ based on an erroneous lab result despite contradictory signs and epidemiological data? Can you give an example here?
    That's great, if do that (hopefully you'll never be in that situation though) but will your colleagues? Will your indemnity and malpractice cover providers cover you if you assume full responsibility? Will your consultant and other NCHDs step forward with you? Because they haven't in the past.
    In the case of the organ removed incorrectly all doctors involved washed their hands of it. The hospital did too. They pushed all the blame on the slide.


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  • #487
    doireannod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭doireannod


    gctest50 wrote: »
    that bit is a little cranky, but anyway @ 22:35 :

    But you still haven't answered the question.


  • #488
    doireannod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭doireannod


    Dingle_berry wrote: »
    That's great, if do that (hopefully you'll never be in that situation though) but will your colleagues? Will your indemnity and malpractice cover providers cover you if you assume full responsibility? Will your consultant and other NCHDs step forward with you? Because they haven't in the past.
    In the case of the organ removed incorrectly all doctors involved washed their hands of it. The hospital did too. They pushed all the blame on the slide.

    Well if an NCHD makes an error and it's entirely of their own doing, I wouldn't expect co-NCHDs or consultants to step forward with them. And yes, your clinical indemnity will cover you if you make a mistake.

    In the case of the healthy organ being removed, as I said, the chain of errors began at the time the slide was misplaced.


  • #489
    leanonme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭leanonme


    doireannod wrote: »
    same goes for doctors. Starting at 30k. Working unsocial hours, away from family and taking abuse from drunks and violent thugs

    Same goes for social care workers, who are working well above the working time act hours, doing 24-48 hour shifts, in many different environments where they are at risk of assaults etc.


  • #490
    Dingle_berry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 885 ✭✭✭Dingle_berry


    doireannod wrote: »
    Well if an NCHD makes an error and it's entirely of their own doing, I wouldn't expect co-NCHDs or consultants to step forward with them. And yes, your clinical indemnity will cover you if you make a mistake.

    In the case of the healthy organ being removed, as I said, the chain of errors began at the time the slide was misplaced.

    You're very good at answering a different question. If you admit fault will the indemnity scheme cover you? Fully?

    A chain of errors. Not one. Not all comited by one individual. Yet one individual was isolated and blamed. Your post implied that only doctors are ever to blame. Which is it?


  • #491
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    doireannod wrote: »
    The claims made against The HSE quoted in that article aren't detailed. Those claims could have been due to nursing errors, admin errors, porters' errors, catering staff errors, social worker errors, radiographer errors. What leads you to believe these claims are due to doctors "screwing up"?

    It seems a significant number of claims were due to damage to personal property. Sounds like security staff errors are also problematic.

    In that post you have :
    nursing errors
    admin errors
    porters' errors
    catering staff errors
    social worker errors
    radiographer errors

    How about errors by junior doctors

    In your experience what percentage of the total do they account for ?
    • 5% ?
    • 10% ?
    • 15% ?
    • 20% ?


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  • #492
    doireannod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭doireannod


    Dingle_berry wrote: »
    You're very good at answering a different question. If you admit fault will the indemnity scheme cover you? Fully?

    A chain of errors. Not one. Not all comited by one individual. Yet one individual was isolated and blamed. Your post implied that only doctors are ever to blame. Which is it?

    Yes. Your clinical indemnity will cover you if you make an error. And of course it'll cover you when you assume full responsibility. Nobody is in the business of trying to shirk responsibility.

    Doctors are responsible for patient management. They are responsible for the blood tests they request, the scans they order, the medicines they prescribe and the decisions they make.

    Doctors are not responsible for things like filing slides in the correct place. With regard to this particular case I'm surprised one person was found to blame. It sounds like a system failure to me.


  • #493
    doireannod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭doireannod


    gctest50 wrote: »
    In that post you have :



    How about errors by junior doctors

    In your experience what percentage of the total do they account for ?

    20% I imagine. Doctors are the professionals most directly involved in patient care.

    You don't seem to trust doctors. Who do you attend when you are unwell?


  • #494
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    gctest50 wrote: »
    In that post you have :



    How about errors by junior doctors

    In your experience what percentage of the total do they account for ?


    Who knows what percentage. Doctors make pretty much all the big decisions about patients and are ultimately responsible so I'd imagine mistakes made by doctors could be fairly significant.


  • #495
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    doireannod wrote: »
    20% I imagine. Doctors are the professionals most directly involved in patient care.
    ..

    Grand, just wanted to know what you thought it may be

    They are human, and we humans make mistakes all the time and medicine depends on a chain of humans and lots of other things


  • #496
    jcon1913
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Jesus that's pretty bad. I knew their pay was low but that's an insult.

    They get paid during training, and start off on 31K - with a prospect of promotion / increments / overtime - I think thats not too shabby. Guards get to retire on a good pension, granted after ( I think ) 30 years service, on 2/3rds of final salary. They also get a good tax-free lump sum when retiring.


  • #497
    Martypants1
    Site Banned Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Martypants1


    Wow. Teachers have some cheek. Pretending like they want equal pay for equal work. LOL

    I'll let them have equal pay for equal work, by lowering the higher paid and bringing it in line with the new entrants. Wonder would they be on for that? NOOOOOOOO. They want more money.

    I should threaten strike action to my employer for paying more in Dublin than in Galway for the exact same job. Wonder how that would go down?

    Hope these leeches don't get a cent. They already get paid for 4 months of the year scratching their holes.


  • #498
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Martypants1 wrote: »
    Wow. Teachers have some cheek. Pretending like they want equal pay for equal work. LOL

    I'll let them have equal pay for equal work, by lowering the higher paid and bringing it in line with the new entrants. Wonder would they be on for that? NOOOOOOOO. They want more money.

    I should threaten strike action to my employer for paying more in Dublin than in Galway for the exact same job. Wonder how that would go down?

    Hope these leeches don't get a cent. They already get paid for 4 months of the year scratching their holes.

    1) New entrants want the same money, not more. Every teacher has seen their pay cut over the last 5 years. In an ecomomy that's supposed to be recovering (at least according to the govt and Enda Kenny), I dont think parity is cheek.


    2) Attacking another profession because you dislike your own conditions is non sensical.

    3) Teachers are paid a salary. Criticising their holidays again says more about your dissatisfaction in your own work than it does about theirs. If you are envious, become a teacher yourself.

    Id also point out that Irish teachers have amongst the highest class contact hrs with their students in Europe so the holidays are well earned.


  • #499
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 57,077 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    They get paid during training, and start off on 31K - with a prospect of promotion / increments / overtime - I think thats not too shabby. Guards get to retire on a good pension, granted after ( I think ) 30 years service, on 2/3rds of final salary. They also get a good tax-free lump sum when retiring.

    Its poor money. I wouldn't work weekends, nights or Christmas for that.
    Its an insult.


  • #500
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    jcon1913 wrote: »
    They get paid during training, and start off on 31K - with a prospect of promotion / increments / overtime - I think thats not too shabby. Guards get to retire on a good pension, granted after ( I think ) 30 years service, on 2/3rds of final salary. They also get a good tax-free lump sum when retiring.

    They got paid less than job seekers during training.


  • #501
    Martypants1
    Site Banned Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Martypants1


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    1) New entrants want the same money, not more. Every teacher has seen their pay cut over the last 5 years. In an ecomomy that's supposed to be recovering (at least according to the govt and Enda Kenny), I dont think parity is cheek.


    2) Attacking another profession because you dislike your own conditions is non sensical.

    3) Teachers are paid a salary. Criticising their holidays again says more about your dissatisfaction in your own work than it does about theirs. If you are envious, become a teacher yourself.

    Id also point out that Irish teachers have amongst the highest class contact hrs with their students in Europe so the holidays are well earned.

    1) Has anyone put forward a motion to reduce the pay of the higher earners to bring it in line with the new entrants? Doubt it. They want more money. The economy recovering doesn't mean the government has loads of money to hand out.

    2) I love my own conditions. I accept things can be different for different people and don't try and pretend I just want equality with someone else just for more money.

    Let's say in my company they used to start off with 30 days holidays a year but now new starters only get 20. Is that equality? If I started on 20 I'd accept that's the way it is. I wouldn't get butthurt over the fact the guy who got in 5 years before me is getting more.

    A line was drawn in the sand and from there on the changes have been implemented.

    3) What does that matter? They get paid for holidays, of which they get 4 months for doing nothing. not sure what kind of defence "they get paid a salary" is... Are you really trying to use a point of a basic job requirement as justification for their ridiculous holidays? You teachers need to go out to the real world and see there's so many people working 10/15 hours a week extra unpaid to get their job done.

    Once again I'm perfectly happy in my private sector job with pension, healthcare, bonus and company car all paid for. ;) I have no desire to become a teacher where I do the same work in year one as year 20. I'd rather progress and develop myself.


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  • #502
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Martypants1 wrote: »

    I should threaten strike action to my employer for paying more in Dublin than in Galway for the exact same job. Wonder how that would go down?

    Why would you do this if you are so happy with your private sector position, pension, and company car?

    Is your venom towards teachers pay and conditions from some sense of unwarranted "that's not fair that they get a, b, c"?


  • #503
    Martypants1
    Site Banned Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Martypants1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why would you do this if you are so happy with your private sector position, pension, and company car?

    Is your venom towards teachers pay and conditions from some sense of unwarranted "that's not fair that they get a, b, c"?

    Huh?

    I wouldn't do it. I accept there are differences and things change. Not everyone can have the same thing.

    Just like if I wa a teacher I wouldn't be striking for more pay as I would understand that teachers pay needed to be cut down and a new structure implemented. I would know the salary before becoming a teacher and if I didn't like it I wouldn't go for it.

    My venom is there because their greed is going to lead to more tax coming from my paypacket.


  • #504
    Martypants1
    Site Banned Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Martypants1


    No one has answered my question whether teachers want equality or more money?

    Has any motion been put forward to bring the higher paid teachers in line with the new entrants?


  • #505
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    Martypants1, teachers deserve the pay they get. They work not only 5 days a week, but at the weekends too. Correcting essays, arranging classes and going to hours of pointless meetings. Not to mention having to deal with the same little brats every week, with nothing done about them. In the summer, when they correct the JC and LC, they spent up to 8 hours a day for a little over a month correcting exams, with little to no breaks.


  • #506
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    bubblypop wrote: »
    There has been a big number of applicants for the gardai, that when they got the call for templemore, didn't turn up.
    They changed their mind because they couldn't manage on the wages..
    bubblypop wrote: »
    No it's not unbacked. It's directly from people I know, working in the Garda college.
    Don't know why you find it unbelievable!
    It sounds like utter nonsense, that's why, completely unbelieveable. How did they communicate to the "people you know" that they did not turn up because they could not manage on the wages. What % was this? as you make it sound like all of them. Makes no fcuking sense at all. Pure bloke in the pub spouting crap hoping others do not bother to actual think about the lies you spout. Or maybe you are not lying and just fell for the shite people fed you.

    I have had to interview people myself and take applications. I never once had someone ring back and say they are not turning up for interview because they "couldn't manage on the wages", it's a bizarre idea, especially in a job with widely known wages.

    Unless they were just looking for papers to give to the dole, but even then they would not say that incase it got back to the dole office.
    tayto lover wrote: »
    Its poor money. I wouldn't work weekends, nights or Christmas for that.
    Its an insult.
    You would probably find the wages for waxing scrotums an insult too. Dunno if you ever answered my question ages back about it. Many would be glad at the chance to do both jobs, they are not all of the same mindset as you. I am sure many would despise my job, and probably yours. Many are probably far more insulted to hear you call their wage an insult.


  • #507
    cena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,397 ✭✭✭✭cena


    Teachers don't need a pay rise. The get the same days off as the kids and get paid for summer holidays


  • #508
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 57,077 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    rubadub wrote: »
    It sounds like utter nonsense, that's why, completely unbelieveable. How did they communicate to the "people you know" that they did not turn up because they could not manage on the wages. What % was this? as you make it sound like all of them. Makes no fcuking sense at all. Pure bloke in the pub spouting crap hoping others do not bother to actual think about the lies you spout. Or maybe you are not lying and just fell for the shite people fed you.

    I have had to interview people myself and take applications. I never once had someone ring back and say they are not turning up for interview because they "couldn't manage on the wages", it's a bizarre idea, especially in a job with widely known wages.

    Unless they were just looking for papers to give to the dole, but even then they would not say that incase it got back to the dole office.


    You would probably find the wages for waxing scrotums an insult too. Dunno if you ever answered my question ages back about it. Many would be glad at the chance to do both jobs, they are not all of the same mindset as you. I am sure many would despise my job, and probably yours.

    Is that what you do, waxing scrotums?
    You're welcome to it.
    I wouldn't do that either.


  • #509
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    cena wrote: »
    Teachers don't need a pay rise. The get the same days off as the kids and get paid for summer holidays

    Inform yourself.

    They do not get paid for the holidays. Their pay is just spread out. They can choose to get paid the months they work, which would leave them without pay for the 3 months.


  • #510
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    cena wrote: »
    Teachers don't need a pay rise. The get the same days off as the kids and get paid for summer holidays

    Putting aside the work they do outside the class, which you don't seem to value, the job is one of the most important there is. Why wouldn't you pay them top dollar?


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  • #511
    maudgonner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    In the summer, when they correct the JC and LC, they spent up to 8 hours a day for a little over a month correcting exams, with little to no breaks.

    Unless this has changed in recent years, this is not part of their job. It's an extra, temporary employment that is paid separately from their salary?

    And most people work 8 hours a day?


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