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Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

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  • #482
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    too man communists around


  • #483
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,240 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    tritium wrote: »
    Yeah, all of us blokes are thrilled that benefitting from this one comes at the cost of having less time with our children then the mothers do....

    Fortunately the state considers fathers disposable fashion accessories largely so we really don't get a say in it. Paternity leave? No thanks, equal right to a relationship with your child? No thanks, just suck it up sonny and earn the money

    Funny how many folks leave that bit out of any discussion about wage gaps

    ‘But… but… its men that make the laws…’


  • #484
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    dav3 wrote: »
    When the gender pay gap sits at 14% and we live in a country where women are still not allowed full control over their own bodies, we still have some way to go.

    I also think that abortion should be legal.

    This does highlight the pointless nature of the "Men vs Women" argument though.

    There are plenty of women who are pro-life. So should men listen to those pro-life women or should men listen to the pro-choice women?

    I am sure that most Feminists would want to see more women in politics but I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to see more pro-life women in politics, right?

    Would you rather have a 50-50 split in government where the majority think the wage gap isn't an issue and the majority are also pro life?

    Or would you rather have an 80-20 split in favor of men where the majority want to shrink the wage gap and also legalize abortion?


  • #485
    Nollog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,707 ✭✭✭Nollog


    dav3 wrote: »
    I find it preposterous that in this day and age as a man, I could be given a vote to dictate on what a woman should do with her own body.

    Well, if you're in a relationship with her, I'd imagine you should have a say.


  • #486
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    dav3 wrote: »

    As for the other question I was asked above. I find it preposterous that in this day and age as a man, I could be given a vote to dictate on what a woman should do with her own body.

    I'm almost tempted to agree with you. On the surface, it does seem a little ridiculous that Men could be given a vote to decide that.

    However, many women disagree with my belief that a woman should be able to make the choice to have an abortion. If their vote gets counted and mine doesn't then those women have a better chance to deny other women full control of their bodies.

    It's like you are almost saying that only pro-choice people should be allowed to vote on whether or not a woman should be given a choice but you are getting confused and saying only women should have that vote.

    Not all women are feminists and not all women are pro-choice.

    What if the pro-lifers won a vote that was only open to women and polling suggested that a vote open to men and women would give the victory to the pro-choice side? Would you rather everyone be allowed to vote in those circumstances?

    What about women who can't have kids? Would they be allowed to vote on abortion? After all, it's never an issue they'll have to deal with, right?


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  • #487
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dav3 wrote: »
    Yes, this old saw, again.

    I was referencing the EU commission report. All the figures and facts are laid out here.
    Then try reading them. If you remove the oul feminist blinkers for a second, you may have noticed that the figures I quoted came from those sources in a report readied up by the National Women's council of Ireland, who define themselves as a "feminist organisation". They stated that women without kids receive 17% extra pay than men(that's across all ages BTW). Well they didn't. In an attempt to avoid showing their "pay gap" to be BS, or far more complex than the usual feminist rhetoric, they made it a negative figure, hoping it would be missed. No doubt some read it as an actual negative against women. On another thread hereabouts on the subject someone did. Because women are victims y'know.
    There you have it ladies. Wibbs has worked it out. Keep your legs closed if you know what's good for you.
    In my time I've read some pretty stupid statements in an effort to deflect, but that's a new one.
    thattequilagirl wrote:
    If you have to remain childless and defy time by remaining under 30, this doesn't really make a difference...
    That figure where women get paid more on average isn't age related. It also doesn't break down when women have kids and how that affects things. A woman in her mid 30's with a solid career under her is going to take far less of a hit, if any of having a kid than a woman who has a kid at 18. I'd be very interested to see how the stats stack up if young single women with kids were taken out of the equation. I'll bet now that for the average worker the gap between men and women is nil and I'd even bet that women have the advantage.

    Women are certainly showing better academic performances and that gap is widening and nary a thing does one hear about it in mainstream media.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #488
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    orubiru wrote: »
    I'm almost tempted to agree with you. On the surface, it does seem a little ridiculous that Men could be given a vote to decide that.

    However, many women disagree with my belief that a woman should be able to make the choice to have an abortion. If their vote gets counted and mine doesn't then those women have a better chance to deny other women full control of their bodies.

    It's like you are almost saying that only pro-choice people should be allowed to vote on whether or not a woman should be given a choice but you are getting confused and saying only women should have that vote.

    Not all women are feminists and not all women are pro-choice.

    What if the pro-lifers won a vote that was only open to women and polling suggested that a vote open to men and women would give the victory to the pro-choice side? Would you rather everyone be allowed to vote in those circumstances?

    What about women who can't have kids? Would they be allowed to vote on abortion? After all, it's never an issue they'll have to deal with, right?


    The curious thing about it too is that according to a recent Red C poll regarding legislating for abortion in Ireland - more men were pro-choice than women, so, if it were only women voting on a change to the Irish Constitution, a referendum that would allow for abortion would likely fail!

    dav it's not that you have a choice in what women do with their own bodies. It's that as a citizen of Ireland, you would have the right to vote in a referendum anyway.


  • #489
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #490
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    In fairness though, you surely must be aware why society can't be kept out of it.


  • #491
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #492
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    It's not a false belief though, it's a fact. It'd be the very same thing if we were to vote on any social issue that would have an effect on society. The issue of abortion isn't just a personal moral issue for women, and legislating for it is a matter of public interest.


  • #493
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #494
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The curious thing about it too is that according to a recent Red C poll regarding legislating for abortion in Ireland - more men were pro-choice than women, so, if it were only women voting on a change to the Irish Constitution, a referendum that would allow for abortion would likely fail!y

    dav it's not that you have a choice in what women do with their own bodies. It's that as a citizen of Ireland, you would have the right to vote in a referendum anyway.

    Also the referendum would be about whether the unborn have a right to life not whether women have a right to abort. By this logic only the unborn could vote? You can not change the constitution without a referendum and only letting one gender vote would be ridiculous and totally unconstitutional.


  • #495
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    We're in agreement insofar as I agree that an abortion itself is a private matter for a woman, but the issue of abortion, and legislating for it, even in terms of the time limits and so on, would be a public matter. Personally I think if we are going to legislate for abortion, it should be completely a woman's choice at every stage. It's a view that isn't as extreme as it sounds - IDX make up less than 1% of all abortions in the US.


  • #496
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Since this is at risk of becoming another abortion thread.

    I think something that hasn't really been talked about on this thread the double bind of conflicting messages men find themselves in.
    We are told its ok to be sensitive, be true to ourselves and not guard our emotions on one hand, yet often if a man is open about their feelings, things that bother them and so on they are slapped back with the implication that they are whining or need to "man up".

    Many people (and more so guys I think) are stoic by nature and thats fine but it seems that this "traditionally" manly characteristic isn't a valued characteristic in the prevalent narrative you encounter in new media, that in and off itself is fine, if a man feels like being sensitive they should be able to be so, the problem is when they come forward with their feelings the reaction is very different to what they expect.

    Take this thread here (which I have used before as an example)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057247232

    Basically guy who thinks he is his partners 3rd partner finds out she has been with 500 guys and she smashes up the place and finds out later he has got an STD. He calls her a "B-tch" in the OP.

    The most thanked post says (by a woman and AFAIK mainly thanked by woman posters, I'm pointing this out because when this problems men face are brought up its often framed that its only other men that hold guys back)
    What attitude? That some women enjoy sex and have different moral standards to you?

    That a woman who enjoys multiple partner sex is a right bitch? You don't see anything wrong with THAT attitude?

    There is also a number of other posts "shaming" him

    His feelings are completely invalidated because they go counter to the progressive narrative and because he insults his ex with a fairly mind gendered insult.

    Is it any wonder that some younger guys who may spend a lot of time online and on "new media" and probably aren't that socially clued in end up in the more toxic end of the manosphere or PUA, they will actually listen and tell them that the problem isn't them and its ok to feel that way, basically bizarrely the toxic environment actually supports and cares for these guys more while the "nice" people shun them.
    Read the some progressive media and you will very regularly see masculinity and/or young men referred to as dangerous, toxic, needing to be policed etc while everything a woman does is basically empowering.

    Despite my love of gender wars threads I don't think we should be pushing a message thats harmful to both genders.


  • #497
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #498
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Since this is at risk of becoming another abortion thread.

    I think something that hasn't really been talked about on this thread the double bind of conflicting messages men find themselves in.
    We are told its ok to be sensitive, be true to ourselves and not guard our emotions on one hand, yet often if a man is open about their feelings, things that bother them and so on they are slapped back with the implication that they are whining or need to "man up".

    Many people (and more so guys I think) are stoic by nature and thats fine but it seems that this "traditionally" manly characteristic isn't a valued characteristic in the prevalent narrative you encounter in new media, that in and off itself is fine, if a man feels like being sensitive they should be able to be so, the problem is when they come forward with their feelings the reaction is very different to what they expect.

    Take this thread here (which I have used before as an example)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057247232

    Basically guy who thinks he is his partners 3rd partner finds out she has been with 500 guys and she smashes up the place and finds out later he has got an STD. He calls her a "B-tch" in the OP.

    The most thanked post says (by a woman and AFAIK mainly thanked by woman posters, I'm pointing this out because when this problems men face are brought up its often framed that its only other men that hold guys back)



    There is also a number of other posts "shaming" him

    His feelings are completely invalidated because they go counter to the progressive narrative and because he insults his ex with a fairly mind gendered insult.

    Is it any wonder that some younger guys who may spend a lot of time online and on "new media" and probably aren't that socially clued in end up in the more toxic end of the manosphere or PUA, they will actually listen and tell them that the problem isn't them and its ok to feel that way, basically bizarrely the toxic environment actually supports and cares for these guys more while the "nice" people shun them.
    Read the some progressive media and you will very regularly see masculinity and/or young men referred to as dangerous, toxic, needing to be policed etc while everything a woman does is basically empowering.

    Despite my love of gender wars threads I don't think we should be pushing a message thats harmful to both genders.

    that looks like some thread :pac: you are always going to get some hate if you are critical of someone else's lifestyle. At the end of the day you only have one life to live and you have to calculate risk/reward. Its worth having data on your side that your reasoning is sound. promiscuity and divorce are correlated so while objectively criticisng someone is wrong , if you plan on having a serious relationship with them, then its absolutely a factor.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #499
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Feel I have to mention this again. When will our friendly neighbourhood activists be demanding Equal application of the law to either sex/gender ?


  • #500
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    To my mind its something that effects younger men more particularly those that are slightly socially isolated who might spend a lot of time online, I don't consider myself old but when I was a teenager the prevalent social movement was lad culture, which was basically the much more successful counterpoint to the "new men", its a very different social framework today (basically "new men" is back in vogue).

    You seem to dismiss the reaction to this poster, in one way thats fair enough, but this is a fairly consistent reaction across the media and what we have been constantly told over the last few years is that reactions on the internet are important too (I don;t know if I personally agree)


  • #501
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »
    Equality seem to be taking precedence over common sense, as Spock said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

    You're not advocating regulatory & taxation systems which favour ordinary citizens over billionaires, are you? :pac:


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  • #502
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Despite my love of gender wars threads I don't think we should be pushing a message thats harmful to both genders.


    You can't police what message other people are pushing though, in the same way as you can't police what people are exposed to. I absolutely detest the whole, what comes across as patronising "men should be allowed to cry" guff. I don't need anyone's permission to cry. I'll cry if I feel like it. I don't.

    The whole "talk about their emotions" stuff. It makes absolutely no sense to me, and to me comes across as wanting men and boys to behave like delicate little flowers. It really does sound like they want men to be more effeminate and allow themselves "vulnerable", as if that's how people are supposed to be equal - they're all as weak and victimised as each other.

    I can't get behind that message at all, and I don't think many men ever will, but I don't think too many men fall into the extreme PUA stuff either. The internet exaggerates the effect of everything, so I wouldn't worry too much about hordes of men crying into women's breasts just yet or in need of a special hug having been triggered by the violence in Loony Toons.


  • #503
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You can't police what message other people are pushing though, in the same way as you can't police what people are exposed to. I absolutely detest the whole, what comes across as patronising "men should be allowed to cry" guff. I don't need anyone's permission to cry. I'll cry if I feel like it. I don't.

    The whole "talk about their emotions" stuff. It makes absolutely no sense to me, and to me comes across as wanting men and boys to behave like delicate little flowers. It really does sound like they want men to be more effeminate and allow themselves "vulnerable", as if that's how people are supposed to be equal - they're all as weak and victimised as each other.

    I can't get behind that message at all, and I don't think many men ever will, but I don't think too many men fall into the extreme PUA stuff either. The internet exaggerates the effect of everything, so I wouldn't worry too much about hordes of men crying into women's breasts just yet or in need of a special hug having been triggered by the violence in Loony Toons.

    I actually completely agree with you about the middle part of your statement, but it is the message thats pushed.

    Are you sure a lot of guys don't fall into the whole PUA lifestyle thing, I mean because I said PUA can be Toxic I have a rereg sending me messages trying to convince me otherwise.


  • #504
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I actually completely agree with you about the middle part of your statement, but it is the message thats pushed.

    Are you sure a lot of guys don't fall into the whole PUA lifestyle thing, I mean because I said PUA can be Toxic I have a rereg sending me messages trying to convince me otherwise.


    I know the one :D

    Ahh no, I'm fairly sure alright. What does concern me though, is that whole "nofap" and MGTOW nonsense. I'd see those phenomena as more damaging to socially introverted young men than the PUA stuff as it's young men competing amongst themselves to see who can be more puritan. As unhealthy as the PUA stuff is, that kind of mentality is IMO genuinely fair more toxic to young men's mental health.

    At least with the PUA stuff, young men get feedback from women that it's a ball of shyte, but with the nofap and MGTOW stuff, there's no feedback there, just constant reinforcing among themselves that what they're at is actually healthy for them, when it's anything but healthy!!


  • #505
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I know the one :D

    Ahh no, I'm fairly sure alright. What does concern me though, is that whole "nofap" and MGTOW nonsense. I'd see those phenomena as more damaging to socially introverted young men than the PUA stuff as it's young men competing amongst themselves to see who can be more puritan. As unhealthy as the PUA stuff is, that kind of mentality is IMO genuinely fair more toxic to young men's mental health.

    At least with the PUA stuff, young men get feedback from women that it's a ball of shyte, but with the nofap and MGTOW stuff, there's no feedback there, just constant reinforcing among themselves that what they're at is actually healthy for them, when it's anything but healthy!!

    I'm not sure how I feel about the Nofap thing, but the MGTOW just make me feel depressed for them, I don't think they are common though thankfully.
    That said MGTOW are simply the male version of political lesbianism or feminist separatists


  • #506
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I know the one :D

    Ahh no, I'm fairly sure alright. What does concern me though, is that whole "nofap" and MGTOW nonsense. I'd see those phenomena as more damaging to socially introverted young men than the PUA stuff as it's young men competing amongst themselves to see who can be more puritan. As unhealthy as the PUA stuff is, that kind of mentality is IMO genuinely fair more toxic to young men's mental health.

    At least with the PUA stuff, young men get feedback from women that it's a ball of shyte, but with the nofap and MGTOW stuff, there's no feedback there, just constant reinforcing among themselves that what they're at is actually healthy for them, when it's anything but healthy!!
    I don't know what any of these things are atall. Damn all these new letters..


  • #507
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I'm not sure how I feel about the Nofap thing, but the MGTOW just make me feel depressed for them, I don't think they are common though thankfully.
    That said MGTOW are simply the male version of political lesbianism or feminist separatists

    why havnt I heard of feminist sepraratists before? :pac: it sounds like the kind of feminism I could support....

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #508
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,524 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    melissak wrote: »
    I don't know what any of these things are atall. Damn all these new letters..

    :D

    Ahh they're just various online communities that are for the most part a US and UK phenomenon.

    PUA (Pick Up Artists) is a community of young men that spend their days talking about their success with women, but they never seem to have any success with actual women.

    MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) is a community of young and middle aged men who reject society because they've pretty much been rejected by society.

    Nofap (No masturbation) is an online community of men who make dubious claims to each other about how long they can go without touching themselves. It's sort of like the priesthood if you will.


  • #509
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    :D

    Ahh they're just various online communities that are for the most part a US and UK phenomenon.

    PUA (Pick Up Artists) is a community of young men that spend their days talking about their success with women, but they never seem to have any success with actual women.

    MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) is a community of young and middle aged men who reject society because they've pretty much been rejected by society.

    Nofap (No masturbation) is an online community of men who make dubious claims to each other about how long they can go without touching themselves. It's sort of like the priesthood if you will.

    Hmmmmm.


  • #510
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #511
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes but is a justified rant not an expression of feelings? The impression one gets from reading this is that its not ok for men to feel aggrieved.

    In relation to the slut/stud thing I'm really not sure if that applies to the OP, the numbers are vastly of the norm even if somebody is "sex positive".


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