Why do Irish people hate being Irish?

Eramen · 23-03-2016 03:03AM

rsh118 wrote: »

Theirs is far enough back in the veils of history so that the brute nastiness can be easily forgotten, whereas some of us have grand parents who were involved.

The French definitely feel some horror towards parts of the revolution though, I.e. the terror etc.

Spot on about Americans though. 1776 is long enough ago to invent a good fairy tale to cover up the genuine nastiness of war though.

Yes, war is nasty, but so is oppression. Sometimes a few dudes need to stand up and put a stop to it, of this there can be no doubt.

Take note: Did you see the Syrian army and the Russian airforce pummeling the ISIS death-cult in order to restore that country back to a glimmer of prospective normality? Nasty but necessary.

Why do you have a problem with any action that *isn't* pacifistic? I feel that this is a chink in your ideology that needs sorted.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 03:04AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Why not?

Well people can feel proud to be Irish if they want, but I do not feel like they *should* have to. A person can feel neither proud nor ashamed - that would describe me (although I would totally feel proud of being Irish in certain contexts I would say - e.g. international sporting events or living abroad, and I can very much understand national pride in an area of conflict).

gormdubhgorm · 23-03-2016 03:05AM

The fact 1916 is celebrated is a bit of an oxymoron. It was a complete flop. It was called on/off and on/off again.
Most did not turn out. The military tactics were a disaster like Mallin burying himself in St Stephen's Green.
To be completely honest I feel it is a bit odd that we have to celebrate it and I feel a bit odd doing so. It was a comedy of calamities.
The only thing that seemed anyway successful was Mount Street bridge (two snipers) because the Brits were just as clueless there.

I do feel proud to be Irish but a little bit embarrassed about having to celebrate a fiasco. It is sort of like when Ireland lost v France when Henry hand-balled.
Ireland lost the battles and did not last long, but public opinion celebrated a moral victory!

In answer to your question OP why do people hate being Irish.
1) A lot of Irish people identify with Britain/USA culture more then Irish culture
2) A lot of Irish people speak English the Americans/British people speak it
3) A lot of Irish people resent the way Irish was taught at schools

chair28 · 23-03-2016 03:06AM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I've never once suggested that the British did not engage in terrorist tactics or that they weren't terrorists. Are you now willing to make the same admission about the IRA?

Absolutely not, they did what needed to be done to start with and then it escalated into a nasty and horrible war.Still would not by any means call them terrorists. At the end of the day why were they even needed ? if the BA were doing what they were there to do there would be no need for them. Did you just expect Republicans to roll over and take it from a foreign army?

StudentDad · 23-03-2016 03:06AM

I'm Irish, happily so. My proviso, I'll define my own Irishness thanks. I'm getting fed up of the term Irish being hijacked by one interest group or another. Be it the crazy lunatic ra head fringe or the comfortable 'west brit' crowd. The irritating lists of things, you're not Irish unless ... or what really gets my goat. The notion that so and so is a better brand of Irish person because of ...

Personally I don't know what all the fuss is about. A gang of people caused bloody mayhem 100 years ago, people died. Because of their actions hundreds more died. Are we better off? That's debatable.

Isn't great though. We're all Irish

SD

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:08AM

Eramen wrote: »

Yes, war is nasty, but so is oppression. Sometimes a few dudes need to stand up and put a stop to it, of this there can be no doubt.

Take note: Did you see the Syrian army and the Russian airforce pummeling the ISIS death-cult in order to restore that country to prospective normality? Nasty but necessary.

Careful now. The issues in Syria are related to a two factions of Islam, one in the minority oppressing the majority. Both sides think they're right. The third side in this is ISIS who are attempting to form their own state. They're vile and disgusting but from their point of view I bet you if they had an equivilant of boards.ie there'd be at least one nutter on there saying none of them were terrorists and they we're fighting a war. :rolleyes:

23-03-2016 03:08AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

As for the IRA part, the present IRA are scum. Covering up pedophilia by Liam Adams, selling drugs to kids, running protection rackets against business owners... Doesn't really smack of nationalism and selflessness now, does it? They're nothing more than jumped up little cúnts.

How many IRA members do you know of personally? I'm afraid people's judgement is too often clouded by the content of state sponsored rags nowadays. I'm asking what you know about the activities of such people apart from what you have heard in the media that has caused you to speak so harshly of them?

rsh118 · 23-03-2016 03:10AM

Eramen wrote: »

Yes, war is nasty, but so is oppression. Sometimes a few dudes need to stand up and put a stop to it, of this there can be no doubt.

Take note: Did you see the Syrian army and the Russian airforce pummeling the ISIS death cult in order to restore that country to some sense of normality? Nasty but necessary.

Why do you have a problem with any action that *isn't* pacifistic? I feel that this is a chink in your ideology that needs sorted.

I wouldn't go as far as to say force is never necessary, there are clearly times when it is, that's the sort of world we live in. Oppression especially often leads to armed uprising.

What I'm saying about our history is that there is absolutely no harm in wishing it could have come about with fewer deaths on all sides. I'm glad about aspects of 1916 and sad about others. The reality is however that it was armed struggle which led directly to independence here and I wouldn't wish that away for the world.

It's all shades of grey I'm afraid, all shades of grey.

One thing I cannot support however is the argument that 'Brits were always killing us, it's only fair we killed a few of them in getting independence.' That's too eye-for-an-eye-ish for me.

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:11AM

chair28 wrote: »

Absolutely not, they did what needed to be done to start with and then it escalated into a nasty and horrible war.Still would not by any means call them terrorists. At the end of the day why were they even needed ? if the BA were doing what they were there to do there would be no need for them. Did you just expect Republicans to roll over and take it from a foreign army?

No I'd expect them the fight a war.

Let's return to the point of what is the strategic value of blowing up innocent civilians - as the main and specific target?

Junkyard Tom · 23-03-2016 03:12AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Fitzgerald got the ball rolling,

Fitzgerald consistently distanced himself from talking with SF unlike Hume and then Reynolds.

give him his dues, and I mentioned him because his Da was in the GPO.

He also wrote of the importance of the 1916 Rising to Irish independence.

What was on offer before 1916 was Home Rule – devolution, well short of independence. It is assumed by many that Home Rule would have evolved automatically into sovereign independence [...] The truth is that without 1916 our people might well have settled down for a time at least within a Home Rule system [...] with the evolution of the welfare state, Ireland would have become increasingly dependent financially on Britain.

If Home Rule had endured for any length of time, a move to independence would have become so costly in the short-run that it is most unlikely that there would ever have been a willingness to pay the price of doing without these transfers

Garret Fitzgerald

He subtly paints an appalling vista of an entire island that would have ended up like the north in the 70's 80's only for the 1916 Rising.

IrishTrajan · 23-03-2016 03:13AM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Well people can feel proud to be Irish if they want, but I do not feel like they *should* have to. A person can feel neither proud nor ashamed - that would describe me (although I would totally feel proud of being Irish in certain contexts I would say - e.g. international sporting events or living abroad, and I can very much understand national pride in an area of conflict).

Fair's fair, I suppose. Personally, I love being Irish and can't understand why someone would feel ashamed of it. I can understand why you might get fed up sharing a country with some certain bumblefúcks who shout "up the ra" whenever The Chieftains come on in the pub or those imbeciles who think we should apologise for being white, but overall, I can't understand people who actually dislike being Irish. For me, it's an integral part of myself, I love being Irish, I love singing in Irish, I love reading Irish history. Hell, even if I say the word "Ireland" in the news, I can't help but perk up and pay more attention than I usually would (like Cheltenham, I'm not a betting man, but I've just spent the last 10 minutes reading about Irish jockeys).

For me, nationalism should be something we can all gather around and stroke ourselves off to. That's not to say I'll call someone less Irish if they hold the same level of fanaticism as I do (and I am pretty fanatical about being Irish in fairness).

The Backwards Man · 23-03-2016 03:13AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many IRA members do you know of personally? I'm afraid people's judgement is too often clouded by the content of state sponsored rags nowadays. I'm asking what you know about the activities of such people apart from what you have heard in the media that has caused you to speak so harshly of them?

I know quite a few personally and I have no qualms whatsoever about labelling them all as scum, and anyone who justifies their actions likewise.

gormdubhgorm · 23-03-2016 03:13AM

chair28 wrote: »

if it wasn't for physical force republicanism you'd be still singing GSTQ....I think people forget that quiet a lot to be honest

Not strictly true, how do you know that a political solution could not have been attained?
Who knows Ireland may not have been partitioned it the physical force option was not chosen?
By choosing the physical force option it definitely ensured that 6 counties are still singing GSTQ!!!!

IrishTrajan · 23-03-2016 03:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

How many IRA members do you know of personally? I'm afraid people's judgement is too often clouded by the content of state sponsored rags nowadays. I'm asking what you know about the activities of such people apart from what you have heard in the media that has caused you to speak so harshly of them?

Personally? None. I wouldn't affiliate them. How many have I seen in person? Quite a few. Comes with growing up in a "disadvantaged" area of the capital.

chair28 · 23-03-2016 03:16AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The fact 1916 is celebrated is a bit of an oxymoron. It was a complete flop. It was called on/off and on/off again.
Most did not turn out. The military tactics were a disaster like Mallin burying himself in St Stephen's Green.
To be completely honest I feel it is a bit odd that we have to celebrate it and I feel a bit odd doing so. It was a comedy of calamities.
The only thing that seemed anyway successful was Mount Street bridge (two snipers) because the Brits were just as clueless there.

I do feel proud to be Irish but a little bit embarrassed about having to celebrate a fiasco. It is sort of like when Ireland lost v France when Henry hand-balled.
Ireland lost the battles and did not last long, but public opinion celebrated a moral victory!

In answer to your question OP why do people hate being Irish.
1) A lot of Irish people identify with Britain/USA culture more then Irish culture
2) A lot of Irish people speak English the Americans/British people speak it
3) A lot of Irish people resent the way Irish was though at schools

Id have to disagree with you. I think 1916 was a huge success. it did exactly what they planned it to do, they made international news and their struggle was noticed by the whole world. Ok, the battle was lost after 3/4 days but that was only the start of it all.. if you like, 1916 got the ball rolling for freedom thanks to Maxwell ordering all the leaders to be shot

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 03:17AM

Deleted User wrote: »

How many IRA members do you know of personally? I'm afraid people's judgement is too often clouded by the content of state sponsored rags nowadays. I'm asking what you know about the activities of such people apart from what you have heard in the media that has caused you to speak so harshly of them?

Oh come on. This is not a matter of distortion by the media - the IRA's actions speak for themselves. I have no doubt there have been members who grew up in the heart of the conflict and who joined just for the cause way way back, and because they were almost pushed into it due to the vile sectarianism and ill treatment by the security forces, but by now, it is plain to see what the organisation is like.

IrishTrajan · 23-03-2016 03:18AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not strictly true, how do you know that a political solution could not have been attained?
Who knows Ireland may not have been partitioned it the physical force option was not chosen?
By choosing the physical force option it definitely ensured that 6 counties are still singing GSTQ!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant

The Covenant had two basic parts: the Covenant itself, which was signed by men, and the Declaration, which was signed by women. In total, the Covenant was signed by 237,368 men; the Declaration, by 234,046 women.

In January 1913, the Ulster Volunteers aimed to recruit 100,000 men aged from 17 to 65 who had signed the Covenant, as a unionist militia.[3]

A British Covenant, similar to the Ulster Covenant in opposition to the Home Rule Bill, received two million signatures in 1914.

BEING CONVINCED in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V., humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant, throughout this our time of threatened calamity, to stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right, we hereto subscribe our names.
And further, we individually declare that we have not already signed this Covenant.

chair28 · 23-03-2016 03:19AM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Careful now. The issues in Syria are related to a two factions of Islam, one in the minority oppressing the majority. Both sides think they're right. The third side in this is ISIS who are attempting to form their own state. They're vile and disgusting but from their point of view I bet you if they had an equivilant of boards.ie there'd be at least one nutter on there saying none of them were terrorists and they we're fighting a war. :rolleyes:

haha you gave up on your last argument.... good man,

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:20AM

Let me answer your main question OP.

Some people aren't proud to be Irish because of idiots who romanticise the past. They might be people like yourself who believe that everything that was done on the Irish side was justified because of the 'Yoke of British oppression' not bothering to look at the nuances of the time. They might be idiots who believe in 2016 a woman doesn't have the right to chose what she can do with her own body because of the magic sky man or the robed one in Rome.

Others are simply indifferent, abandon the country as soon as TVs are cheaper in the UK or the job prospects are better abroad, all the time bemoaning people trying to get into the country to make a better life for themselves. Many and I'd say the majority are proud that Ireland gained her independence and is a successful country with many rights and freedoms and for the most part a safe and prosperous place to live. The first country to ratify Gay marriage by popular vote and other leaps and bounds forward.

People who are proud about aspects can realise there are other aspects which one should not be as proud of. It's people who try an oppress that difference of opinion who don't have any respect.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 03:21AM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Some people aren't proud to be Irish because of idiots who romanticise the past.

The idiots also include people being ashamed to be Irish because of the RA.

rsh118 · 23-03-2016 03:21AM

chair28 wrote: »

Id have to disagree with you. I think 1916 was a huge success. it did exactly what they planned it to do, they made international news and their struggle was noticed by the whole world. Ok, the battle was lost after 3/4 days but that was only the start of it all.. if you like, 1916 got the ball rolling for freedom thanks to Maxwell ordering all the leaders to be shot

I think it was a success in the goal of achieving independence, I think though there is a difficulty in labelling it a huge success because of the differing ideas of what the leaders thought it would be.

Pearse no doubt saw the value in blood sacrifice, but you have to feel for those who were going for military success but ended part of a very public suicide pact. Yes they were ready and willing to die for Ireland, but some I'm sure would have preferred to lead on past Easter week running something more like the War of Independence.

Mainly thinking aloud here really.

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:22AM

chair28 wrote: »

haha you gave up on your last argument.... good man,

You're trying to dodge the question again. What is the main tactic in targeting innocent civilians, which you've admitted the IRA did. I've given you the answer above, I'm more than willing to try and keep an open mind that you have a different answer.

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:23AM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

The idiots also include people being ashamed to be Irish because of the RA.

People should be ashamed of the RA, that doesn't mean they have to be ashamed to be Irish.

chair28 · 23-03-2016 03:24AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not strictly true, how do you know that a political solution could not have been attained?
Who knows Ireland may not have been partitioned it the physical force option was not chosen?
By choosing the physical force option it definitely ensured that 6 counties are still singing GSTQ!!!!

Like all the other bullsh1t political solutions for the 800 years previously that were just empty promises to get Irishmen to fight for them?

gormdubhgorm · 23-03-2016 03:24AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Personally? None. I wouldn't affiliate them. How many have I seen in person? Quite a few. "disadvantaged" area of the capital.

The type who have "Eire" tattooed on one arm and an English soccer crest on the other... and wouldn't know a fada from a fart.

23-03-2016 03:24AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Personally? None. I wouldn't affiliate them. How many have I seen in person? Quite a few. Comes with growing up in a "disadvantaged" area of the capital.

It seems you have grew up quite close to such activity so you obviously have good reason to be critical. As regards the CIRA - the are something of an enigma. Unfortunately since 2009 that movement (military and political) has been ravaged by internal issues. There are (or were at some stage) two organisations claiming to be the CIRA. One was mainly based in Limerick but had activists in Dublin and elsewhere. The Limerick dominated group have been dubbed the 'Limerick loonies' are are alleged to be involved in criminal activity by their former comrades. As such in their eyes they are the legitimate CIRA and the others are thugs who are tarnishing their name. It's all very bitter.

The point of all this of course is that the fellas in your area may be these 'Loonie' fellas. Maybe you're already aware of all this ****e. Certain people are styling themselves as the IRA when in fact they are nothing to do with it.

davycc · 23-03-2016 03:25AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The fact 1916 is celebrated is a bit of an oxymoron. It was a complete flop. It was called on/off and on/off again.
Most did not turn out. The military tactics were a disaster like Mallin burying himself in St Stephen's Green.
To be completely honest I feel it is a bit odd that we have to celebrate it and I feel a bit odd doing so. It was a comedy of calamities.
The only thing that seemed anyway successful was Mount Street bridge (two snipers) because the Brits were just as clueless there.

I do feel proud to be Irish but a little bit embarrassed about having to celebrate a fiasco. It is sort of like when Ireland lost v France when Henry hand-balled.
Ireland lost the battles and did not last long, but public opinion celebrated a moral victory!

In answer to your question OP why do people hate being Irish.
1) A lot of Irish people identify with Britain/USA culture more then Irish culture
2) A lot of Irish people speak English the Americans/British people speak it
3) A lot of Irish people resent the way Irish was though at schools

the battle of ashbourne was a complete military success under tomas ashe destroyed the RIC barrracks and its reinforcements .. captured more weapons and prisoners than they could carry..
got away from the wastful trench warfare and successfully introduced flying columns and guerrilla ambush mindset which was copied to great affect on the war of independance

IrishTrajan · 23-03-2016 03:26AM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Some people aren't proud to be Irish because of idiots who romanticise the past. They might be people like yourself who believe that everything that was done on the Irish side was justified because of the 'Yoke of British oppression' not bothering to look at the nuances of the time. They might be idiots who believe in 2016 a woman doesn't have the right to chose what she can do with her own body because of the magic sky man or the robed one in Rome.

Being condescending doesn't help either.

MarkAnthony · 23-03-2016 03:27AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Being condescending doesn't help either.

Neither does quoting out of context. What part of my above statement isn't true?

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 03:28AM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

People should be ashamed of the RA, that doesn't mean they have to be ashamed to be Irish.

No I won't be feeling ashamed for something I have no responsibility for. I certainly condemn the murderers and they do not speak for me, but feeling shame makes no sense. Thinking people should feel ashamed about people from the same country as them... is very dangerous thinking.

Why do Irish people hate being Irish?

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