Why do Irish people hate being Irish?

chair28

I was just reading other threads about Easter Lilies and the amount of people who just want nothing more to put us down and keep us down. There is a massive bang of anti Irishness from that thread and others.
Why do Irish people feel ashamed of being irish?
Why are Irish people ashamed of the past?
Why do they think its cool to be so anti Irish?
Why do people call members of any of the IRAs (past or present) terrorists when they are all fighting for the same goal?
Why are people against wearing an Easter lily and automatically think its a Ra thing?

Seems pathetic and very weird to be honest. Every other country is proud of their freedom, Eg America, are all the men who fought for their freedom terrorists also?

Pretty F*cked up to be honest

refusetolose

I don't,

I'm from Cork though...

TheLastMohican

I think some of the educated under Brit loving 1970 trained teachers, deserve a bit of compassion. They would be rebels at heart but lacked the cojones to ask the right questions.

Del2005

I'm proud to be Irish and feel zero need to wear anything to prove it.


If people feel that they need something to prove their Irish then I don't mind.

MarkAnthony

Ireland has moved on, no revolution has ever been completely 100% clean. Given the current backdrop of global terrorism people are, thankfully, a lot less willing to romanticise 'the RA'. There's misunderstandings across the board tbh with some people perhaps being a bit over sensitive; It's pretty much balanced out by the raving loonies on the other side of it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

coolbeans

chair28 wrote: »

I was just reading other threads about Easter Lilies and the amount of people who just want nothing more to put us down and keep us down. There is a massive bang of anti Irishness from that thread and others.
Why do Irish people feel ashamed of being irish?
Why are Irish people ashamed of the past?
Why do they think its cool to be so anti Irish?
Why do people call members of any of the IRAs (past or present) terrorists when they are all fighting for the same goal?
Why are people against wearing an Easter lily and automatically think its a Ra thing?

Seems pathetic and very weird to be honest. Every other country is proud of their freedom, Eg America, are all the men who fought for their freedom terrorists also?

Pretty F*cked up to be honest

They don't. Lots of people just don't subscribe to the narrow, unsubtle and frankly backward view of Irishness that a large and vocal minority seem to want to shove down everyone else's throats.

chair28

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

if it wasn't for physical force republicanism you'd be still singing GSTQ....I think people forget that quiet a lot to be honest

chair28

coolbeans wrote: »

They don't. Lots of people just don't subscribe to the narrow, unsubtle and frankly backward view of Irishness that a large and vocal minority seem to want to shove down everyone else's throats.

Can you expand on this? Backward view of Irishness?

diomed

OP
I'm proud to be a west-Brit.
I might as well get the Republican speak going early on the thread to be honest.

franklyon

Proud of being Irish, always was and always will be, maybe the fact I live overseas gives me green tinted glasses. The men of 1916 didn't plant bombs under cars, didn't kidnap and murder old women so they can hardly be called terrorists. They fought an open battle against British forces and lost but it planted the seed which would flower years later in the War of Independence.
Without them we would probably be just another part of the UK doing our shopping in Marks and Spencers, Boots etc...oh wait....:D
Seriously though we're a small nation and why shouldn't we be proud?

Junkyard Tom

There aren't lots of them. Just a miniscule, but vocal, insignificant minority with no popular support at any level.

MarkAnthony

chair28 wrote: »

if it wasn't for physical force republicanism you'd be still singing GSTQ....I think people forget that quiet a lot to be honest

Especially when they're shopping up in Newry.

MightyMandarin

chair28 wrote: »

if it wasn't for physical force republicanism you'd be still singing GSTQ....I think people forget that quiet a lot to be honest

If it wasn't for physical force 'republicanism' there'd be a lot less victims of terrorism on this island too. I think you're forgetting that to be honest.

Ice Maiden

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think they mean that. I think they are referring to people - Irish people - who just non stop condemn and sneer at Ireland and Irish people (but not themselves ) and the Irish language; people who like to describe "us" (not including themselves) as backwards and this country being a backwater. There are several of them, who post regularly on After Hours and Politics. They post the nastiest, most spiteful comments putting down this country - it is bizarre stuff.

Some of them like to say they "wish" the 26 counties was never made independent and "we" failed as a state because of independence, and we should go back to the UK with cap in hand. Exaggeration for wind-up effect I'm sure, but they do think along those lines. And they pretend the Northern Ireland conflict was 100% republican, nobody else, and their lickspittling of unionists would embarrass an Irish Independent writer. They are nearly apologetic about being born here.

Then there are the crowd who go on and on about how Ireland is useless for everything and like a third world country (from their warm homes with their access to plenty of food and to clean water and education) - and offer absolutely zero solutions.

I don't think people should feel proud to be Irish (I don't particularly) or should support hardline republicanism (Christ no) and I love so much about England and English culture. There are things about this country I do not like too. But being ashamed and feeling inferior (yet superior to your fellow countrypeople) - very silly.

The Backwards Man

I'm very proud of who I am and where I come from.

I don't wear a poppy or a lilly, and anyone that thinks I should respect any arsehole that tries to claim justification of murder, robbery and pillaging in my name can go fcuk themselves.

Ice Maiden

diomed wrote: »

OP
I'm proud to be a west-Brit.
I might as well get the Republican speak going early on the thread to be honest.

What is a west Brit and why are you "proud" of being one?

chair28

franklyon wrote: »

Proud of being Irish, always was and always will be, maybe the fact I live overseas gives me green tinted glasses. The men of 1916 didn't plant bombs under cars, didn't kidnap and murder old women so they can hardly be called terrorists. They fought an open battle against British forces and lost but it planted the seed which would flower years later in the War of Independence.
Without them we would probably be just another part of the UK doing our shopping in Marks and Spencers, Boots etc...oh wait....:D
Seriously though we're a small nation and why shouldn't we be proud?

Franklyon, they did plant bombs etc, they did everything the other IRAs did during wars....War is war no matter what way you look at it the only things that change from case to case is the reasoning behind it....in our case its freedom, that hasn't changed since 1916 and before so i dont know why people call them terrorists. its pretty ignorant and disrespectful

The Backwards Man

Ice Maiden wrote: »

What is a west Brit and why are you "proud" of being one?

Poster is being tongue in cheek I think.

Being called a west Brit by some of the knuckledraggers that inhabit internet forums these days is more of a compliment than an insult in my opinion anyway.

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It is though. Physical force was necessary to become independent. Hence the war.

However it isn't just that, is it. The antis hate everything, wish nelsons pillar back, wish the union wasn't broken.

Odd group. Massively over represented on boards.

Ice Maiden

chair28 wrote: »

Franklyon, they did plant bombs etc, they did everything the other IRAs did during wars....War is war no matter what way you look at it the only things that change from case to case is the reasoning behind it....in our case its freedom, that hasn't changed since 1916 and before so i dont know why people call them terrorists. its pretty ignorant and disrespectful

Ah here, condemnation of IRA atrocities is not the same as hating being Irish. IRA atrocities deserve condemnation - saying it was a war is a cop-out. Daesh think what they are doing is a war. The UVF thought what they were doing was a war. Violent scum are violent scum.

MarkAnthony

chair28 wrote: »

so i dont know why people call them terrorists. its pretty ignorant and disrespectful

Whatcha smoking, are you sharing?

Of course they were terrorists. Perhaps terrorists with nobler goals in mind than ISIS but with frankly the similar tactics in later years.

Eugene Norman

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Poster is being tongue in cheek I think.

Being called a west Brit by some of the knuckledraggers that inhabit internet forums these days is more of a compliment than an insult in my opinion anyway.

Most people who are called west Brits admit to preferring we stayed with the union.

Enough of these generalised ad hominems btw.

Ice Maiden

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Poster is being tongue in cheek I think.

Being called a west Brit by some of the knuckledraggers that inhabit internet forums these days is more of a compliment than an insult in my opinion anyway.

Well I would not use the term "west Brit" (cannot stand it) but I know what is meant by it sometimes. As outlined in my first post to this thread.

"Shinnerbot" about people who are not IRA supporters but who just have a nuanced view about the full picture of the Northern Ireland conflict is knuckledraggy too.

chair28

MightyMandarin wrote: »

If it wasn't for physical force 'republicanism' there'd be a lot less victims of terrorism on this island too. I think you're forgetting that to be honest.

this is the kinda nonsense im talking about....what an ignorant comment....
Why is there trouble in this land in the first place? who gave you your freedom?
have a bit of respect.

Eugene Norman

chair28 wrote: »

Franklyon, they did plant bombs etc, they did everything the other IRAs did during wars....War is war no matter what way you look at it the only things that change from case to case is the reasoning behind it....in our case its freedom, that hasn't changed since 1916 and before so i dont know why people call them terrorists. its pretty ignorant and disrespectful

I've never seen any references to bombs. Obviously the Brits shelled later.

chair28

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Whatcha smoking, are you sharing?

Of course they were terrorists. Perhaps terrorists with nobler goals in mind than ISIS but with frankly the similar tactics in later years.

So the People of 1916 were terrorists??????

catbear

Being proud of an accident of birth never made sense to me but I am extremely glad we don't have the luggage that former empires like the UK and France have to deal with.

kupus

I love smithwicks and 20 major. nothing like it unless i start on the guinness first. I cant stand the IRA. baby murdering scum.

All they are now is a glorified mafia, which makes them.....still scum.

chair28

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Ah here, condemnation of IRA atrocities is not the same as hating being Irish. IRA atrocities deserve condemnation - saying it was a war is a cop-out. Daesh think what they are doing is a war. The UVF thought what they were doing was a war. Violent scum are violent scum.

Of course it was a war.....what else war it?

Junkyard Tom

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You, as with many other anti-Republican pseuds, persistently sneer at physical force Republicanism in all forms while ignoring the population-halving, despicable, physical force Imperialism that gave rise to it.

The Backwards Man

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Most people who are called west Brits admit to preferring we stayed with the union.

Enough of these generalised ad hominems btw.

Is that right?

I see people that were instrumental in the forming of the peace process, such as Fitzgerald and Hume, being denigrated as west brits here all the time. Those are two people I would call good republicans. As I say, if anyone thinks that makes me less Irish than an ooh aahh up the Ra yahoo then they can go fcuk themselves

Ice Maiden

chair28 wrote: »

Of course it was a war.....what else war it?

Few names for it. Blowing up a shopping centre, blowing up pubs, blowing up a memorial service - killing innocent civilians.

chair28

catbear wrote: »

Being proud of an accident of birth never made sense to me but I am extremely glad we don't have the luggage that former empires like the UK and France have to deal with.

An accident of birth? the idea of freedom has been around since we were first colonised

The Backwards Man

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Well I would not use the term "west Brit" (cannot stand it) but I know what is meant by it sometimes. As outlined in my first post to this thread.

"Shinnerbot" about people who are not IRA supporters but who just have a nuanced view about the full picture of the Northern Ireland conflict is knuckledraggy too.

It always astounds me how full a picture people down south have of the picture in Northern Ireland when those of us that live here still struggle to peer through the blur.:)

MarkAnthony

chair28 wrote: »

So the People of 1916 were terrorists??????

Some of them - you might want to go and read a few history books. One on punctuation might be an idea too.

chair28 wrote: »

Of course it was a war.....what else war it?

A terrorist action. Wars have rules, even the largest and most well organised army can descend into terrorist tactics, at which point they become terrorists.

What in your opinion was the strategic point of blowing up people in an Industrial town in the North of England when they were out doing some weekend shopping?

Junkyard Tom

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Fitzgerald and Hume

Fitzgerald and Hume?

Reynolds and Hume. FG sneered at Reynolds for engaging in the Hume-Adams talks that ultimately led to the peace process and GFA (spurred on by a few bombs being set of in financial districts in Britain and them threatening Paisley that they'd 'pull the plug')

We became the degraded and feeble imitators of our tyrants. English fashions, English material tastes and customs were introduced by the landlord class or adopted by them, and by a natural process they came to be associated in the minds of our people with gentility. The outward sign of a rise in the social scale became the extent to which distinguished us as Irish and the success with which we imitated the enemy who despised us. - Michael Collins

Sums it up really.

nocoverart

refusetolose wrote: »

I don't,

I'm from Cork though...

You Cork people are so obsessed about were ye are from. You should all get a "I'm from from Cork bhoy" tattoo on your foreheads, or better still... shove a cork up your anuses so it changes the range of that stupid accent.

Nice scenery there though TBF.

Ice Maiden

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It always astounds me how full a picture people down south have of the picture in Northern Ireland when those of us that live here still struggle to peer through the blur.:)

It astounds me how some people in the south just cling to one aspect rather than looking at the fuller picture, which would surely be the more logical position when you are standing outside.

chair28

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Few names for it. Blowing up a shopping centre, blowing up pubs, blowing up a memorial service - killing innocent civilians.

and shooting innocent men,women and children at civil rights movements etc wasnt war either. Face it, it was a war and a bloody horrible one at that.....

Ice Maiden

chair28 wrote: »

An accident of birth?

They mean we are just born where we are born by chance, so what is there to be proud of - I do not agree with them though; it is more complex than that, as it is not a case of just being born here, we are shaped after we are born.

chair28 wrote: »

and shooting innocent men,women and children at civil rights movements etc wasnt war either.

Of course. Horrible violent acts too, for which innocent people did not deserve to die in retaliation.

chair28

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Some of them - you might want to go and read a few history books. One on punctuation might be an idea too.



A terrorist action. Wars have rules, even the largest and most well organised army can descend into terrorist tactics, at which point they become terrorists.

What in your opinion was the strategic point of blowing up people in an Industrial town in the North of England when they were out doing some weekend shopping?

Explain on the some of them comment?
It was a tit for tat word. Civilians on both sides got hurt. generally what happens during wars

Day Lewin

I don't hate being Irish: in fact I love it.

All wars are horrible and all peoples do it. Any history book, of anywhere. Lighten up!

MarkAnthony

chair28 wrote: »

Explain on the some of them comment?
It was a tit for tat word. Civilians on both sides got hurt. generally what happens during wars

What was the strategic value of doing it. Don't dodge the question. You either don't know or don't want to admit what the answer is. Which is it?

rsh118

Historically speaking it's the physical force republicanism which accelerated independence. Any supposition about a more peaceful transition is still guesswork, whatever bills had passed the commons.

That doesn't mean we can't wish it had been peaceful? It's no betrayal of your country to wish that we could have been separated without loss of life because that's a noble goal, whatever way you paint it.

Remember the men and women who strove to set us free, from every tradition, yes. But that does not release them from modern critques of what happened. History changes as we change, and to re-analyse it makes no one a traitor.

The Backwards Man

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Fitzgerald and Hume?

Reynolds and Hume. FG sneered at Reynolds for engaging in the Hume-Adams talks that ultimately led to the peace process and GFA (spurred on by a few bombs being set of in financial districts in Britain and them threatening Paisley that they'd 'pull the plug')

Fitzgerald got the ball rolling, give him his dues, and I mentioned him because his Da was in the GPO.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jesus, not this again??

Save me the bother: have we established the stupidity of asking why Irish people hate being Irish before actually finding out if Irish people DO hate being Irish??

chair28

MarkAnthony wrote: »

What was the strategic value of doing it. Don't dodge the question. You either don't know or don't want to admit what the answer is. Which is it?

What bomb are you referring to? I would imagine it was in retaliation for something the British army did previously. it was a clear warning and a show of muscle. Bringing the war over to England would cause outrage over there and they might get what they wanted faster

gormdubhgorm

franklyon wrote: »

The men of 1916 didn't plant bombs under cars, didn't kidnap and murder old women

They didn't but 1916 was vicious stuff, the war of independence was vicious, the civil war had famillies fighting against each other.

To say there was no atrocities/civilian casualties committed in 1916 is a bit naive to be fair.
They were just of a different type to the ones you list above.
It was not all just singing a few songs and wrapping the green flag around them...

Eramen

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You don't see the French or the Americans being ashamed of themselves because of 'physical force republicanism'. This is just so silly.

If not republicanism, we would have rallied under another 'cause' to gain our independence.. and in fact we did multiple times, Jacobinism, Catholicism, Gaelic Monarchy, Cultural Revivalism etc.

If you think this is about a certain political ideology you're missing the point entirely. It's about the self-determination of our own distinct people!