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Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Taco Chips


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No you explained it better and with examples. I'm in the UK and a few friends said they were talking about it in their respective organisations.

    You're right. If a biochemist went on strike there would be little or no "timely" blood testing and many many deaths would occur. This is a high responsibility job and I agree the pay should be closer to junior doctor level.

    The training involved is very intense. I'll put it this way a lot of doctors fail the basic biochemistry component of their course and biochemists have to do 3-5 years. We also have fewer graduates than doctors. Biomedical science and biochemistry courses have less and less people enrolling due to its perceived difficulty. One year had eight graduates.


    Doctors know that the healthcare team works as a well oiled machine. Part of what is so exhausting about working as a doctor is the very many people who don't know what our job entails jumping in with aspersions about "how juniors know nothing" "how we have no responsibility" "how X does all the real work anyway" "how doctors would be useless without Y". It gets tiring having people who don't know anything about ward and hospital work telling us that their job is just as/more important. We all appreciate the importance of the MDT, no medics have been on here denigrating it.

    It's been pointed out before but trying to conflate the biochem module done in first year in most medicine courses and using it as an indicator of the difficulty of our degree is pointless. Some medical students fail biochem. Some biochem students fail their modules. Some physics students fail their modules. Its a redundant point.

    It would be great if biomedical scientists were paid better. When you suggest junior doctor pay, how much? Junior doc pay ranges from €30-70k + covering a range of rankings from intern to SpR 10 years out of university having completed membership and fellowship exams. Are biochemists going to work 24 hour shifts, be moved around the country every 6 months also? They shouldn't have to, but NCHD pay is how much it is because the working conditions are not favourable and it carries a significant amount of responsibility. And even at the levels they are at now there is difficulty retaining graduates because the conditions have slid significantly in recent years.

    I know clinical biochemists have high standards of work practice but there is a very obvious difference in the levels of direct responsibility here. Let's not try to compare different roles. I think lab specialists should earn plenty of money but whats the ballpark? Whats the scale?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 713 ✭✭✭Edward Hopper


    Divide and conquer is just what government/management want to keep the status quo. "It's not us you should be annoyed with, it's your fellow worker."

    Public service workers, teachers, guards, soldiers, etc etc do good work and deserve a decent wage, more than they get now. The job they do willl never be good enough, or cheap enough for some, and this type of thread is reassuring that the world keep turning and I dislike the same kind of posters I always have, but at least I haven't given up caring yet.

    Well I'm off to find my missing thousands that I should have been getting from the HSE for all these years. Will top up my millionaire pension nicely. See you all in the gold rocket car carpark reserved for the public service in a few years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    A report on our progress in the bailout programme a few years ago saids Health Minister James Reilly should cut the salaries of our hospital doctors, who are the highest paid in Europe, to avoid drastic cuts to hospital services.


    The highly critical report also calls for cuts to some salaries and allowances in other public sector jobs. And it warns we may be in for more tough Budgets as the Commission cut its 2013 growth forecast for Ireland to 1.1pc from 1.4pc.


    The Commission said it was impossible for the Government to hit targets for ?health spending cuts within the agreed timeframe without cutting salaries and other costs or cutting patient care. This contradicts repeated government assurances that health spending can be reduced while maintaining patient care and sticking to the Croke Park deal.


    It also wants measures to force doctors who don't prescribe cheap generic drugs to face penalties. The cost of drugs in Ireland tripled between 2000 and 2008 and we pay more for drugs than anybody in Europe bar the Greeks.


    The 72-page draft report, which must be compiled as part of the bailout programme and which has been seen by the Irish Independent, paints a picture of a health system where costs are out of control because staff are paid too much and the State pays one-third more than the EU average for hospital drugs.
    Substantial additional savings through efficiency gains cannot be made within the required timeframe without damaging patient care unless high salaries and the high price of other inputs are seriously addressed," the report warns.
    While the Commission takes aim at doctors' salaries, it also calls for workers protected by the Croke Park agreement to bring their pay into line with civil servants in other countries.


    The report also urges the Government to scrap plans for further redundancies in the public sector, saying it will lead to worse services and push more people on to the dole.


    It challenges government claims that the newest planned redundancy programme would pay for itself in three years.


    The report also highlights the "significant and unexplained wage gap" between private and public sector workers.



    On the health system, the Commission says health spending is high here but the results are average, which implies that there is poor value for money.


    This means people are dying unnecessarily. There was more scope to extend life expectancy here than in almost any other developed country, it added.


    It wants every patient to have their own ID number, better GP services and a funding mechanism that rewards popular hospitals and punishes bad hospitals. Pharmaceuticals costs, which tripled between 2000 and 2008, have to be reduced.


    Best-paid


    The Commission, which highlights that Irish hospital doctors earn twice what their UK counterparts get, wants the Government to recognise more degrees from Europe and further afield. The HSE recognises far fewer degrees than the UK, for example.


    While existing consultants are among the best-paid doctors in the world, the Government recently cut pay for new doctors without reaching a deal with the Irish Medical Organisation, which claims the deal breaks the Croke Park agreement.


    New consultants who only do public work now have a starting salary of €116,207 compared with €166,000 two years ago. Academic consultants are paid just under €146,000, down from €231,653.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doctors-here-are-paid-too-much-says-new-eu-report-28957384.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    mod: maryishere, please don't copy and paste such long articles - just copy a bit and link it, thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,283 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Could I get a link to the HSE publication you got the figures from, was trying to find the same myself. Someone's doing me out of some serious money if it's accurate.

    I did a simple Google search for "HSE payscales"

    First result:

    http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    "Guards risk their lives in their job".

    Correct, one of the most dangerous jobs on the country with one of the highest rates of injury and death
    Guard spends most of his time taking statements about petty theft

    Petty theft is a summery offence, no statement need be taken so false
    signing drivers licence photos.

    Gardai do not sign drivers license photos so again false
    I think in most places around the country the risk of getting hurt as a guard are pretty non existent.

    Not only are Gardai high on the list but police globally generally crack the top 10 dangerous jobs. They face the same risks as all other people plus when people are running away from the criminal, the Garda has to run towards him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 713 ✭✭✭Edward Hopper


    Geuze wrote: »
    I did a simple Google search for "HSE payscales"

    First result:

    http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/Benefits_Services/pay/

    And that shows 55,000 average? I'll have to take your word, nightmare to read on a phone.

    Premium fuel for the rocket car it is then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    maryishere wrote: »
    There are plenty of people with third level qualifications working after years, never mind starting off at, for well less than 40k in the private sector; and they do not have the security, the ability to take sickies or the pension you get in the public sector.

    Sickies dont exist in the private sector? Yeah, pull the other one

    there are also plenty of people in the private sector earning a hell of a lot more than 40K, whats your point?

    Now, I havent fully compiled all the evidence but I am pretty sure that both the Irish and global rich lists are made up of private sector workers are they not?

    In fact, pushing it out further, I dont think theres any millionairs working as Gardai or nurses either.

    THird, the pension as has been pointe out, oh probably twenty times by myself alone, is no better than you can obtain yourself if you choose to setup and make the required contributions

    Fourth, ok so I am dying to know, how far did you get in the recruitment process for these overpaid, cushy numbers?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    maudgonner wrote: »
    Of course the risk could be mitigated Are you really saying that 100% of the incidents where a member of AGS was killed or injured could not have been prevented? That would mean that the injury or death is an eventual certainty, not a possibility, and any attempt to avoid it is futile?

    They may not have been as easily prevented as some farming or industrial accidents, but of course some of them could have been prevented.

    Greater numbers of Gardaí on the beat, better equipment, better training, intervention schemes to lessen violent crime - all if these mitigate the risk of death & injury to Gardaí.

    aka the Gardai


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    According to the HSE (who should know), average pay for nurses is about €55k including premium payments etc. Sounds pretty good to me, and it will no doubt go up with the government having recently given into their recent pay claim (disguised as concern for overcrowding).

    As they've also been frequently mentioned here as supposedly poorly paid, it's worth noting that average pay for rank and file Gardai (ie only Garda rank, not 'higher ups') is about €60k (inclusive of the many allowances to which they are entitled).

    ha ha ha ha ha ha, laughing my ass off here. The average pay? Maybe and I repeat maybe with an absolute **** load of overtime and I mean so much overtime that you are not taking your mandatory rest periods but again, relying on overtime to assert a job is well paid, straw man.

    premium pay? I would assume thats for working the likes of Christmas? Prey tell, what stage of your nursing degree did you decide this overpaid cushy number wasnt for you?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    Augeo wrote: »
    Or you turn up 2 hours later, the someone on the other side is long gone, so too the person with the gun............ so you spend on hour trying to find out does someone have a license for the tight rope.

    and that statement is why you go on the ignore list, not so long ago a Garda went to a house with a man with a gun in it, now his wife and kids will celebrate Christmas without him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    maryishere wrote: »
    The taxpayer subsidises the training of doctors and nurses to the tune of tens of thousands of euro. They should have to work here to repay at least some of that for a number of years after graduation.

    Dont we have a free education system for everyone?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    xLisaBx wrote: »
    I'm a junior hospital biochemist. For the record, we are called Biomedical Scientists, and we are responsible for more deaths than doctors most years on average. And our wages aren't half that of a doctor,

    The worst opening statement in wage negotiations ever! :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    And that shows 55,000 average? I'll have to take your word, nightmare to read on a phone.

    Premium fuel for the rocket car it is then.

    It doesnt, it shows the top wage for MENTAL HEALTH nurse is 47 grand on the max scale

    and its a horrible excel spreadsheet download. Nasty reading on the laptop as well


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    Divide and conquer is just what government/management want to keep the status quo. "It's not us you should be annoyed with, it's your fellow worker."

    Public service workers, teachers, guards, soldiers, etc etc do good work and deserve a decent wage, more than they get now. The job they do willl never be good enough, or cheap enough for some, and this type of thread is reassuring that the world keep turning and I dislike the same kind of posters I always have, but at least I haven't given up caring yet.

    Well I'm off to find my missing thousands that I should have been getting from the HSE for all these years. Will top up my millionaire pension nicely. See you all in the gold rocket car carpark reserved for the public service in a few years.

    sorry old chap, that was my gold ferrari that dinged the rocket, typical public sector, spaces too small!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Why isn't biochemist in the thread title?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    Oh and the article aboutb staff wages showing nurses getting over a hundred grand a year also states this:

    "The information released also shows that one nurse received €82,258 in overtime, while two other nurses received in excess of €70,000."

    If it takes overtime of 70 grand to bring you over the 100 grand mark, your basic is pretty ****ing ****ty!

    (notwithstanding that such OT being available makes a mockery of the recruitment freeze and of that 80,000 52% went straight back in tax)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,760 ✭✭✭✭billyhead


    Jimlh86 wrote: »
    Detectives get walking around money. Really?

    We're are you getting your 51000 basic?. According to that link they get on the max of the scale 47000-48000


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Garda pay:
    Average €64380 in 2013, up slightly since 2009 despite common misconceptions. Link from CSO (based on actual money paid - p14):
    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2013/earnlabcosts_q22013.pdf
    As for the last time Gardaí were moaning a couple of years ago, the relevant Department stated that average pay for Garda rank was about €60k.

    Nurses:
    Difficult to get a proper link, but here is an article from 2007 discussing average nurse pay at €56k - based on salary plus approx. 25% in premium payments (as admitted by their unions; note this does not include overtime, just extra pay for qualifications, unsocial hours etc). I imagine pay has risen since then.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/doctors-and-nurses-a-game-of-high-stakes-1.1202931


  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    maryishere wrote: »
    no, I want to pay them a million each per year, but this little country is still borrowing billions per year and is €200,000,000,000.00 in the red. Thats right.

    Irish hospital consultants remain among the best paid in the world despite pay cuts in recent years, according to OECD figures.
    Irish health professionals generally are well paid by international standards, even when earnings are adjusted for local purchasing power, OECD Health Statistics 2015 shows.
    Patients here spend an average of 120 to 165 days on waiting lists for common medical procedures, while Ireland has a relatively low number of hospital beds, according to the report.
    The figures on pay appear to fly in the face of conditions in the health service, where hundreds of consultant posts are unfilled and medical emigration is rising.
    According to the OECD, Irish specialists earned €164,494 on average in 2014, not including private income, down from €173,646 the previous year. This is the highest figure for any country apart from Australia and Luxembourg.
    GPs earned an average of €115,940 in 2013, down from €118,677 the year before. This compares with €101,000 in Australia and €131,000 in New Zealand, two favoured emigration destinations for Irish doctors.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-world-s-best-paid-oecd-finds-1.2276783

    What do you think is the reason for the unfulfilled consultants post if the pay is so fabulous, do you think their might be a connection between low bed numbers and unfulfilled consultants posts and long weighting lists.


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  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Again I am amazed at the resentment nurses pay generates and to a lesser extent Garda pay, what does anyone think its about? Is there such resentment in the Netherlands, The UK? or anywhere else maybe it something about boards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Again I am amazed at the resentment nurses pay generates and to a lesser extent Garda pay, what does anyone think its about? Is there such resentment in the Netherlands, The UK? or anywhere else maybe it something about boards.

    I don't think anyone resents their pay. They perhaps resent the notion (often put forward by the unions) that both these groups are poorly paid, when this is clearly not the case. And the frequent use of pay figures for 'new' Gardaí and nurses is completely disingenuous given that (i) those pay scales only apply to a small minority and (ii) the pay cuts for new staff were suggested by unions in order to protect the higher earnings of staff already in the job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭xLisaBx


    esforum wrote: »
    The worst opening statement in wage negotiations ever! :p

    Looking back, I have to agree with you :D


  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think anyone resents their pay. They perhaps resent the notion (often put forward by the unions) that both these groups are poorly paid, when this is clearly not the case. And the frequent use of pay figures for 'new' Gardaí and nurses is completely disingenuous given that (i) those pay scales only apply to a small minority and (ii) the pay cuts for new staff were suggested by unions in order to protect the higher earnings of staff already in the job.

    That a good point, it is to do with media spin from the unions and it is a minor part of the issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Nurses:
    Difficult to get a proper link, but here is an article from 2007 discussing average nurse pay at €56k - based on salary plus approx. 25% in premium payments (as admitted by their unions; note this does not include overtime, just extra pay for qualifications, unsocial hours etc). I imagine pay has risen since then.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/doctors-and-nurses-a-game-of-high-stakes-1.1202931

    My sister in law is a nurse, has been for about 7 or 8 years. About 4 years ago or thereabouts, at more or less the height of the mortgage crisis - she could sashay into a bank, with not a penny in savings (she was gifted the 10% deposit) and come out with a big enough mortgage to buy a perfectly nice house in terenure. About a year later she took a year off to travel around the world and then waltzed back into her job, no questions asked. Apparently she can do that 4 more times, should she get itchy feet once more!
    Whatever about the nature of the work they do - they clearly are neither underpaid, nor overworked. (nor should they be, by the way - but you do get sick of the moaning sometimes!)


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 260 ✭✭Jimlh86


    billyhead wrote: »
    We're are you getting your 51000 basic?. According to that link they get on the max of the scale 47000-48000

    I didn't get 51000 basic another poster did. He also came out with the statement that "detectives get walking aroun money"

    Also 51000 before tax


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    It's no wonder that cops and nurses tend to end up together - no one else could put up with their poor mouth bellyaching.

    They should both quit their jobs and become luas drivers - cha ching:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,698 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    I don't think anyone resents their pay. They perhaps resent the notion (often put forward by the unions) that both these groups are poorly paid, when this is clearly not the case. And the frequent use of pay figures for 'new' Gardaí and nurses is completely disingenuous given that (i) those pay scales only apply to a small minority and (ii) the pay cuts for new staff were suggested by unions in order to protect the higher earnings of staff already in the job.

    What I resent is the endless spiel that goes something like this:

    Woe is us, our working conditions are terrible, our shifts are endless, the job is impossible. . . .

    Pay us more . . .

    When you look at it, none of the things the unions complain about repeatedly are remotely solved by an increase in pay but the unions never campaign for anything else, in fact they will often actively obstruct changes that could result in a genuine improvement in working conditions.

    Just suppose for instance that the nurses campaigned to move from their current 12 hours on/12 hours off shift structure to a 3 8 hour shifts structure in conjunction with the rest of hospital employees. Shorter days, more regular shift patterns, longer potential opening hours for hospital clinics . . .


  • Site Banned Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Martypants1


    Jimlh86 wrote: »
    I didn't get 51000 basic another poster did. He also came out with the statement that "detectives get walking aroun money"

    Also 51000 before tax

    Glad you made that clear.


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  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What I resent is the endless spiel that goes something like this:

    Woe is us, our working conditions are terrible, our shifts are endless, the job is impossible. . . .

    Pay us more . . .

    When you look at it, none of the things the unions complain about repeatedly are remotely solved by an increase in pay but the unions never campaign for anything else, in fact they will often actively obstruct changes that could result in a genuine improvement in working conditions.

    Just suppose for instance that the nurses campaigned to move from their current 12 hours on/12 hours off shift structure to a 3 8 hour shifts structure in conjunction with the rest of hospital employees. Shorter days, more regular shift patterns, longer potential opening hours for hospital clinics . . .

    The unions don't do their member any favours sometime, but that is the union so why link it to individual who often have little influence or interest in the union, the rest of the post is a classics example of what you get on these discussion the resentment that some peoples working week is 3 x 12 or 3 x 12.5 hour shifts and thus only appear to be working 3 day a week.

    Lots of people work that shift pattern not just nurses, how come they don't attract the same irrational ire.


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