Do you have a pension?

KomradeBishop · 12-03-2016 02:29PM

One More Toy wrote: »

I own a trivial sum of shares in BAT. I also had cancer. So it's kinda a f*ck you to them when they have to hand over dividend money :-D

Ya but your investment in them is (however small) financially supportive of them, and the dividends derived from profits built upon their historical business practices.

12-03-2016 02:47PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

that'd reflect quite shíttily on you as a person.

Yeah but who cares if its making you money and also it wont reflect on you at all as nobody knows who you invest your money in.

I can guarantee you most people don't care about the ethics, of course if asked they will say they do. If I'm asked in person by someone I would most likely say "oh yes of course I would think of ethics of a company and would not like to support a company doing this and that" but privately I would be far more concerned about the investments being solid and invest my money in the best places regardless of the companies ethics.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The employer contribution to pensions has zero tax, even though your own contribution doesn't

An employees contribution to a pension is before all deductions same as the employers. Employers should be encouraged to put more money into pensions for people when the tax rate is zero not way should they be taxed on providing for their employees future.

KomradeBishop · 12-03-2016 04:32PM

I've already provided stats which prove that argument is wrong - stats which strongly indicate that most people do care about ethics.

If you really "don't care about the ethics", then why exactly are you trying to make such a big deal, out of trying to imply that there is nothing wrong (an ethical statement...) with ignoring the ethics of a company you invest in?

Obviously, you care about trying to make such investments, look as if they are ethically justifiable - otherwise you wouldn't be trying to obstruct criticism of that.

12-03-2016 06:12PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I've already provided stats which prove that argument is wrong - stats which strongly indicate that most people do care about ethics.

You missed my point completely, on an issue like ethics people will often say the "right things" publicly but do something totally different in private so I wouldn't go along with the stats so much.

It's like tax, everyone will say "oh aren't they terrible not paying tax or accepting cash" but the majority of people will do things very differently if they are handed a wad of cash and can easily avoid paying any tax on it.

The J Stands for Jay · 12-03-2016 06:28PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The employer contribution to pensions has zero tax, even though your own contribution doesn't - and it looks like this allows people who setup small companies/partnerships for tax efficiency purposes, a way of funnelling money into investments at reduced taxation.

Employee and employer contributions get tax relief.

Bubbaclaus · 12-03-2016 06:42PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya but your investment in them is (however small) financially supportive of them, and the dividends derived from profits built upon their historical business practices.

Unless they issued new shares, how is buying company shares in the market financially supporting them?

valoren · 12-03-2016 06:52PM

One More Toy wrote: »

I own a trivial sum of shares in BAT. I also had cancer. So it's kinda a f*ck you to them when they have to hand over dividend money :-D

If you were a 20 a day smoker, stopped 5 years ago, then decided to commit, every March, this 3 grand a year habit into Phillip Morris, for example, then you'd have invested 15k. Those shares now worth 24k without reinvesting the dividend.

And that's not considering the generous quarterly dividend. Cash into your hand essentially

Hulk Hands · 12-03-2016 11:56PM

Have thought deeply and read a lot about the benefits of a pension. Still can't get the very big realistic negative out of my head though. In anticipation of the week coming up, I thought a pro gambler quote said it best..."You don't see any returns from a pension until your 65, and we're only 8/13 shots (62%) to make it to that age anyway". His percentages are certainly out in the modern day, but his basic point rings true imo. My company covers life assurance anyway, so I wont be getting involved in pensions at the moment.

In any case, as a human species we're at the most important stage since men emerged from the cave. Artificial Super Intelligence is within reaching distance. Multi planetary existence could occur within 2 decades. We're coming to one of the most important periods in history. People say it's short sighted not to think ahead to retirement. I'd say its extremely naive to anticipate anything about what Ireland or the world could be like in 40/50 years. Plenty of chatter in the thread about population trends, the working population, politics, all looking ahead half a century, as basis for getting a pension now. Hard to take that seriously when you've the likes of Ray Kruzwiel predicting immortality, and Stephen Hawking warning against human extinction in that timeframe

Ben Gadot · 13-03-2016 12:25AM

Look at this way, at best the pension will be there when you retire. At worst, those you nominate as beneficiaries will not have to worry about what comes after if you ever do go unexpectedly (such as having to pay out €10,000 at short notice for a funeral).

Life assurance is smart but it comes at a higher premium and more stringent medical testing than being part of a pension scheme would.

esforum · 13-03-2016 12:28AM

Ben Gadot wrote: »

such as having to pay out €10,000 at short notice for a funeral)

I hate to break it to ya Ben but I spoke to your family and they plan on donating your body to science in a cardboard box then going on the mother of all benders

13-03-2016 12:30AM

Hulk Hands wrote: »

"You don't see any returns from a pension until your 65, and we're only 8/13 shots (62%) to make it to that age anyway". His percentages are certainly out in the modern day, but his basic point rings true imo. My company covers life assurance anyway, so I wont be getting involved in pensions at the moment.

Well that's not exactly true, if you are paying a pension from a young age you could retire in your mid 50's as many do. Delaying starting your pension is pushing it longer and longer before you will have enough built up to retire.

Ben Gadot · 13-03-2016 12:42AM

esforum wrote: »

I hate to break it to ya Ben but I spoke to your family and they plan on donating your body to science in a cardboard box then going on the mother of all benders

Will never happen....they told me they'd just bury me in the back yard.

kazamo · 14-03-2016 03:35PM

Graysen Helpless Spittoon wrote: »

It most certainly should not be closed. We need more tax incentives and ways for employers and employees to deal with money in a tax efficient way.

It should certainly not be closed. Legislation is needed making it compulsary for all employers to contribute to their employees pension pot.

AlexisM · 14-03-2016 04:35PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I've already provided stats which prove that argument is wrong - stats which strongly indicate that most people do care about ethics.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Surveys like this
Fifty-five percent of global online consumers across 60 countries say they are willing to pay more for products and services provided by companies that are committed to positive social and environmental impact
http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/press-room/2014/global-consumers-are-willing-to-put-their-money-where-their-heart-is.html

People generally aren't sociopaths - they give a toss about ethics.

Couple of things on this:
The 55% is a worldwide % - the European equivalent is 40% so most of 'us' don't care.

And on the whole 'do youcare' issue:
There's Noe Ambitious Nosebleed's point that people will SAY they care because they don't want to appear like a sh1t to the interviewer (or maybe even to themselves...)

The survey doesn't ask how MUCH people care and how much they are wiling to have caring cost them. We buy fairtrade coffee and chocolate and recycle like demons in our house. I have no problems paying a few extra euros for a sustainable, fair product but when it comes to pension investments to keep me from retirement until I die, I will go where the bigger returns are. Not doing so could cost me 10s of thousands of euro and make a big difference to my comfort in retirement. So, hand on heart, I could answer the survey question as 'yes I care' but I don't care enough to impact my pension or other investments.

valoren · 14-03-2016 04:50PM

How difficult is it to set up an Irish equivalent of the ISA Stocks and Shares type products here?

You can contribute (after tax income) to an annual limit of €20,000 which is tax free.
(The UK limit is £15,240)
You can invest in 'qualifying investment' shares/etf's/funds, cash, bonds etc.
The account is linked to an online regulated broker with low charges and fees.

You have the flexibility of withdrawing the cash with notice but would pay a charge on the withdrawal.
Setting aside thousands of euro you can't access until being a pensioner is what put's me off pensions.
If you have the option to cash out when needed then I would imagine a lot of people would be investing.

The tax on stock investors in Ireland is punitive. It totally discourages it. A tax wrapper such as an ISA would be simply brilliant here.
You can still have an occupational pension and use the tax efficiency of that (employer matching etc) but with an ISA you can still 'save for retirement' but have the fallback of divesting should the need to access cash arise.

Can only dream.

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 05:11PM

AlexisM wrote: »

Couple of things on this:
The 55% is a worldwide % - the European equivalent is 40% so most of 'us' don't care.

And on the whole 'do youcare' issue:
There's Noe Ambitious Nosebleed's point that people will SAY they care because they don't want to appear like a sh1t to the interviewer (or maybe even to themselves...)

The survey doesn't ask how MUCH people care and how much they are wiling to have caring cost them. We buy fairtrade coffee and chocolate and recycle like demons in our house. I have no problems paying a few extra euros for a sustainable, fair product but when it comes to pension investments to keep me from retirement until I die, I will go where the bigger returns are. Not doing so could cost me 10s of thousands of euro and make a big difference to my comfort in retirement. So, hand on heart, I could answer the survey question as 'yes I care' but I don't care enough to impact my pension or other investments.

Here are some Ireland-specific surveys:

When forming a decision about buying a product or service, just under nine in ten (89%) now believe it is important that companies show a high degree of social and environmental responsibility.

P3: http://www.bitc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Report-of-Survey-of-Consumers-re-CR-2012.pdf

Almost 70% of Irish adults would pay more to buy from responsible companies

http://www.bitc.ie/newsroom/news/almost-70-of-irish-adults-would-pay-more-to-buy-from-responsible-companies/

We're talking about online surveys here. If you want to claim there is that kind of a bias in the results, get some evidence of that first of all, then get some stats to quanitify it.

If you're willing to invest in a company with abysmal ethics, so that you can share in the profit they derive from unethical business practices, then you own that - you are profiting from unethical business practices - and if you keep on doing that once you are aware of the unethical practices, that is the measure of your own ethics, not whether you buy fair trade or not...

If people want to compromise their ethics for a profit, they should just have the balls to come out directly and state that, and own it - face up to the judgement that you'll receive for that - don't piss around trying to pretend it's justified, in order to avoid judgement, as that's rather cowardly.

Permabear · 14-03-2016 05:17PM

This post has been deleted.

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 05:25PM

So you use a national survey where 40% of respondents admit cheating, as evidence that people avoid saying things that are uncomplimentary to themselves (when it shows the opposite - people admitting a very personally uncomplimentary thing), and you use that to try and present the results of another survey, as being biased away from saying something personally uncomplimentary?

Again: You use a survey showing people saying something very uncomplimentary about themselves, to attack another survey, by trying to claim people will avoid saying something uncomplimentary about themselves...that argument contradicts itself.

The figure is 70% by the way - at a minimum. 70% of people in Ireland, will pay more to buy from responsible companies.

This is just a simple attempt at 'special pleading', where people are trying to nitpick at the stats - to try and find a special reason to exclude them - without bothering their hole, to find stats backing their argument (e.g. something quantifying the bias they claim exists).

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 05:31PM

Also, as has been explained amply throughout the thread:
You have practically limited choices on companies that you buy from, you don't have such limitations on companies you invest in - investing in an ethically questionable company, is a far more avoidable/deliberate and judgement-worthy choice, than simply buying from an ethically questionable company.

Investments are far more of a deliberate and ethically-involved choice, than simply buying from a company is.

People also don't get to choose the economic system they inhabit, or choose what companies are dominant - and when there are practical difficulties with purchasing ethically (something which globalization and worldwide-spanning supply chains can make very difficult), then accusing people of being hypocrites for being practically incapable of avoiding some ethically questionable purchases, is an incredibly disingenuous argument, akin to blaming people for the economic system they inhabit, as if that were a choice...

mahoganygas · 14-03-2016 05:46PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Also, as has been explained amply throughout the thread:
You have practically limited choices on companies that you buy from, you don't have such limitations on companies you invest in - investing in an ethically questionable company, is a far more avoidable and judgement-worthy choice, than simply buying from an ethically questionable company.

Investments are far more of a deliberate and ethically-involved choice, than simply buying from a company is.

Nonsense.
I can purchase a product from virtually any company around the world. If I can't buy it online, I can get a supplier to source it for me.

I can't invest in Dunnes Stores.

There are a few thousand companies around the world I can support by investing in them.

There are millions of companies around the world I can support by buying from them.

Also, what exactly is a "ethically questionable company" to you?
How do you decide which companies to put on your black list and which companies to put on your ethical list?

Going down to your local shop must be an absolute nightmare for you. They supply products from thousands of companies. Like it or lump it, you are supporting those companies by using that shop.

How do you sleep at night you monster?

AlexisM · 14-03-2016 05:46PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If people want to compromise their ethics for a profit, they should just have the balls to come out directly and state that, and own it - face up to the judgement that you'll receive for that - don't piss around trying to pretend it's justified, in order to avoid judgement, as that's rather cowardly.

I've no problem saying I don't care enough about whether my pension's managed fund is invested in any particular company. Maybe there are some companies in there that are considered unethical by some people. I don't look on it as compromising my ethics - I'm just not arsed enough to investigate too much.

If a company's ethics are acceptable to a large universe of investors and the financial press from many countries and backgrounds such that the company stays in business and deliver profits, then that's good enough for me.

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 05:57PM

mahoganygas wrote: »

Nonsense.
I can purchase a product from virtually any company around the world. If I can't buy it online, I can get a supplier to source it for me.

I can't invest in Dunnes Stores.

There are a few thousand companies around the world I can support by investing in them.

There are millions of companies around the world I can support by buying from them.

Also, what exactly is a "ethically questionable company" to you?
How do you decide which companies to put on your black list and which companies to put on your ethical list?

Going down to your local shop must be an absolute nightmare for you. They supply products from thousands of companies. Like it or lump it, you are supporting those companies by using that shop.

How do you sleep at night you monster?

It's not a quantity thing. Nobody has to invest in any company. Everybody must purchase things, from at least some companies.

People also typically spend time researching their investments - so there is no excuse whatsoever, for ignoring the potential ethical violations, during the research.

If somebody needs a computer to do their job, there's an extremely high chance that at least some of the components in their computer, are sourced from places of questionable ethics.

If anybody has to do business with a bank, they'd be hard pressed to find one that didn't shít all over its ethical record in the last decade.

There are more than a few areas in the economy, where you'd be hard pressed to find a way to avoid some unethical purchases - this is not the case at all, with investments, which are a far more deliberate choice, than purchases.

mahoganygas · 14-03-2016 06:30PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's not a quantity thing. Nobody has to invest in any company. Everybody must purchase things, from at least some companies.

People also typically spend time researching their investments - so there is no excuse whatsoever, for ignoring the potential ethical violations, during the research.

If anybody has to do business with a bank, they'd be hard pressed to find one that didn't shít all over its ethical record in the last decade.

My pension is made up of index trackers among other things. One of those indexs is the S&P 500. Do you expect me to spend my time researching 500 companies each month when I re-invest my AVC's?

If anybody has to eat eat meat they'd be hard pressed to find a meat producer in the supermarket who doesn't have "questionable ethics".

Is there still "no excuse whatsoever, for ignoring the potential ethical violations"?

Why are you so hung up on the ethics of the Big Bad Company?
Why not the ethics of an individual consumer like yourself?

mikeym · 14-03-2016 07:15PM

Live Fast Die Young

kazamo · 14-03-2016 07:21PM

mikeym wrote: »

Live Fast Die Young

The future's so bright I gotta wear shades

Thargor · 14-03-2016 07:28PM

Feel free to throw up a list of ethical investments offering good returns there pleas Komradebishop...

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 08:03PM

mahoganygas wrote: »

My pension is made up of index trackers among other things. One of those indexs is the S&P 500. Do you expect me to spend my time researching 500 companies each month when I re-invest my AVC's?

If anybody has to eat eat meat they'd be hard pressed to find a meat producer in the supermarket who doesn't have "questionable ethics".

Is there still "no excuse whatsoever, for ignoring the potential ethical violations"?

Why are you so hung up on the ethics of the Big Bad Company?
Why not the ethics of an individual consumer like yourself?

You obviously didn't read the post you're replying to, as I explained in it, how the average consumer doesn't have the same level of practical ability to avoid ethically questionable purchases - whereas an investor has much greater ability to avoid ethically questionable investments.

An investor does not have the same 'out's/excuses, that a person purchasing a good does.

Yes actually, if you can't be arsed even researching the companies you're investing in, and if many of those have serious ethical issues, then you do deserve judgement.

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 08:04PM

Thargor wrote: »

Feel free to throw up a list of ethical investments offering good returns there pleas Komradebishop...

That's your problem, not mine. Feel free to provide this list yourself.

Thargor · 14-03-2016 08:59PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That's your problem, not mine. Feel free to provide this list yourself.

How are you accessing the internet as a matter of interest? Hope theres no rare earth metals or gold in that device...

KomradeBishop · 14-03-2016 09:12PM

Thargor wrote: »

How are you accessing the internet as a matter of interest? Hope theres no rare earth metals or gold in that device...

Did you also - along with the other poster - completely miss the distinction between purchasing and investing, and how the former is plagued with practical difficulties when it comes to ethics, which the latter is not plagued by?

It's funny that - no matter how many times it's pointed out, posters seem to be wilfully blind to it.

Do you have a pension?

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