Nelson's Pillar

steddyeddy · 10-03-2016 12:46AM

maryishere wrote: »

I never said that, it is not and never was perfect. No country or nation ever was.

But I would put more trust in their system of governance than one ran by the IRA, and I would not condone no warning bomb attacks, unlike you.

The IRA weren't involved in this......

maryishere · 10-03-2016 12:47AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Cue the craic smoker saying 500 Irish men (out of several million) worked under him.

Whats a craic smoker? Look in the mirror yourself.

The fact remains a lot more than 500 Irishmen would have been in the Royal Navy, as there were 400 from Dublin alone.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 12:49AM

maryishere wrote: »

I never said that, it is not and never was perfect. No country or nation ever was.

But I would put more trust in their system of governance than one ran by the IRA, and I would not condone no warning bomb attacks, unlike you.

Their system of governance in mainland Britain has no relevance to full scale collusion and murder in the north.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 12:50AM

maryishere wrote: »

Whats a craic smoker? Look in the mirror yourself.

The fact remains a lot more than 500 Irishmen would have been in the Royal Navy, as there were 400 from Dublin alone.

Unionists?

Strazdas · 10-03-2016 12:50AM

riffmongous wrote: »

It was not blown up by the IRA

Republicans I assume? I'd still say that Irish republicans planting a bomb in the city centre of our capital was outrageous. They couldn't even claim they were bombing their British oppressors and came up with the lame excuse they were bombing a "symbol" of said oppression.

steddyeddy · 10-03-2016 12:50AM

maryishere wrote: »

Whats a craic smoker? Look in the mirror yourself.

The fact remains a lot more than 500 Irishmen would have been in the Royal Navy, as there were 400 from Dublin alone.

So? How does that number compare to the number of Irish people who were republican?

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 12:52AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Republicans I assume? I'd still say that Irish republicans planting a bomb in the city centre of our capital was outrageous. They couldn't even claim they were bombing their British oppressors and came up with the lame excuse they were bombing a "symbol" of said oppression.

Ye that was just a lame excuse. Because we can see that their plan was to blow Dublin to bits all along

maryishere · 10-03-2016 12:59AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Unionists?

The navy did not ask the persons politics. Who cares. Like the millions of Irish who have got work in Britain over the years, or gone to work in America, I'd say most did not too much time worrying about politics.

People from Sicily who served in the Italian navy would not have worried too much about the union between mainland Italy and Sicily then. Various separatist and autonomist movements in Sicily have received support from the political left, right, and centre.

steddyeddy · 10-03-2016 01:01AM

So we've established there was no majority that supported a statue of Nelson.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:04AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

So we've established there was no majority that supported a statue of Nelson.

From the reaction at the time in Dublin, most of Dublin supported it. Nelson was the hero that was victorious in battle and helped save these islands.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 01:04AM

maryishere wrote: »

The navy did not ask the persons politics. Who cares. Like the millions of Irish who have got work in Britain over the years, or gone to work in America, I'd say most did not too much time worrying about politics.

People from Sicily who served in the Italian navy would not have worried too much about the union between mainland Italy and Sicily then. Various separatist and autonomist movements in Sicily have received support from the political left, right, and centre.

You are missing the point. You keep trying to present those loyal to the crown as representative of the population. They are not.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 01:05AM

maryishere wrote: »

From the reaction at the time in Dublin, most of Dublin supported it. Nelson was the hero that was victorious in battle and helped save these islands.

Do we? What reaction is this?

steddyeddy · 10-03-2016 01:06AM

maryishere wrote: »

From the reaction at the time in Dublin, most of Dublin supported it. Nelson was the hero that was victorious in battle and helped save these islands.

Bottom and top line opinion. The top line seems to involve you time travelling to witness the reaction at the time.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:07AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Do we? What reaction is this?

Read the reports.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 01:08AM

maryishere wrote: »

Read the reports.

Reports of loyal subjects celebrating it? Care to provide any links?

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:19AM

There were plenty of reports listed earlier by others. Did you not read them? However, I will give you a different one.
"...the vital Catholic Relief Bill of 1793 was going through the Irish parliament, a Militia Bill authorising the embodiment of some 20,000 militiamen – the vast majority of them necessarily Catholic – for the defence of Ireland"

"In 1793, with Irish Catholics having the vote on the same terms as Irish Protestants, and with their playing a front-line role in the defence of Ireland in the event of a French invasion.."

http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-catholic-question-in-the-eighteenth-century-11/

steddyeddy · 10-03-2016 01:24AM

Let's say all 20,000 supported Nelson (not anything close to what the report is about but anyway) that would mean that 0.25% of the population at the time supported Nelson.

I mean I'm starting to wonder at people's intelligence here.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 01:26AM

maryishere wrote: »

There were plenty of reports listed earlier by others. Did you not read them? However, I will give you a different one.
"...the vital Catholic Relief Bill of 1793 was going through the Irish parliament, a Militia Bill authorising the embodiment of some 20,000 militiamen – the vast majority of them necessarily Catholic – for the defence of Ireland"

"In 1793, with Irish Catholics having the vote on the same terms as Irish Protestants, and with their playing a front-line role in the defence of Ireland in the event of a French invasion.."

http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-catholic-question-in-the-eighteenth-century-11/

Here was me thinking we were getting a link to the erection of Nelson's pillar and the reaction in Dublin.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:33AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Let's say all 20,000 supported Nelson (not anything close to what the report is about but anyway) that would mean that 0.25% of the population at the time supported Nelson.

I am not saying what percentage of the population supported Nelson. As well as the 20,000 extra militia men "for the defence of Ireland", there were plenty of other Catholics and others employed in the defence of Ireland. No referendum ever took place on the specific question "do you support Nelson".

You must understand that partly as a result of the trade laws being liberalised, Ireland went through an economic boom in the 1780s. Canals extended from Dublin westwards and the Four Courts and Post Office were established. Dublin's granite-lined quays were built and it boasted that it was the 'second city of the empire'. Corn laws were introduced in 1784 to give a bounty on flour shipped to Dublin; this promoted the spread of mills and tillage. Catholics had equal votes with Protestants. As Dublin was "second city of empire" that is why there was fundraising in Dublin to erect the pillar and there are no records of any noteable opposition at the time.

The Golden Miller · 10-03-2016 01:37AM

maryishere wrote: »

I am not saying what percentage of the population supported Nelson. No referendum ever took place on the specific question "do you support Nelson".
You must understand that partly as a result of the trade laws being liberalised, Ireland went through an economic boom in the 1780s. Canals extended from Dublin westwards and the Four Courts and Post Office were established. Dublin's granite-lined quays were built and it boasted that it was the 'second city of the empire'. Corn laws were introduced in 1784 to give a bounty on flour shipped to Dublin; this promoted the spread of mills and tillage. Catholics had equal votes with Protestants. As Dublin was "second city of empire" that is why there was fundraising in Dublin to erect the pillar and the Dublin press does not record any noteable opposition at the time.

You've yet to clarify how the majority of this country supported Nelson. So certain Catholics had a vote for a while and everything was great and they were all out cheering for Nelson when the pillar was erected? Do you have any real evidence? I mean in North Korea there isn't wide spread outrage when a new statue goes up, is there? I guess they all support the regime so? Your posts are so far removed from reality and disingenuous in the extreme that it's laughable.

pablo128 · 10-03-2016 01:39AM

maryishere wrote: »

I am not saying what percentage of the population supported Nelson. No referendum ever took place on the specific question "do you support Nelson".
You must understand that partly as a result of the trade laws being liberalised, Ireland went through an economic boom in the 1780s. Canals extended from Dublin westwards and the Four Courts and Post Office were established. Dublin's granite-lined quays were built and it boasted that it was the 'second city of the empire'. Corn laws were introduced in 1784 to give a bounty on flour shipped to Dublin; this promoted the spread of mills and tillage. Catholics had equal votes with Protestants. As Dublin was "second city of empire" that is why there was fundraising in Dublin to erect the pillar and there are no records of any noteable opposition at the time.

And what you utterly fail to realise, is that the Dublin of the late 1700s was a vastly different place to the Dublin of 1966. As far back as the 1850s there was official talk of getting rid of the column. It was an eyesore.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:46AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You've yet to clarify how the majority of this country supported Nelson.

I never said the majority of the counrty supported Nelson...I would imagine there were many people in rural areas who had never heard of Nelson. He was away in distant parts for most of his career. Some people in Ireland supported Nelson, which is only natural as they perceived this country to be united with Britain at the time. A bit like Italy is united with Sicily.

Anyway thats not the point. Do you not think that all parts of our heritage should be protected? That was Yeats point, he advocated the Pillar being allowed stand. The arts council here in the fifties said it was the finest Doric column in the country.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 01:52AM

pablo128 wrote: »

It was an eyesore.

If Pearse or Connolly waved an Irish flag from it in 1916 , it would be a shrine now. Why not just replace the statue on top of it instead of blowing it up? Put a statue of Haughey on it? Or else relocating it?

10-03-2016 01:53AM

maryishere wrote: »

Nelson was the hero that was victorious in battle and helped save these islands.

"Save these islands"? Did he now? One of his victories was the Battle of the Nile in August 1798. What was going on in Ireland that summer?

maryishere · 10-03-2016 02:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What was going on in Ireland that summer?

I know well what was going on in Ireland that year, but these islands were at war with bigger forces from Europe during Nelsons time. Nelson was better known for other battles such as Trafalgar.

10-03-2016 02:08AM

maryishere wrote: »

I know well what was going on in Ireland that year, but these islands were at war with bigger forces from Europe during Nelsons time. Nelson was better known for other battles such as Trafalgar.

"These islands" were not at war in some sort of joint endeavour as your misleadingly claiming. The British regime was at war with other forces in Europe. Forces in Ireland were at war with the British.

pablo128 · 10-03-2016 02:09AM

maryishere wrote: »

If Pearse or Connolly waved an Irish flag from it in 1916 , it would be a shrine now. Why not just replace the statue on top of it instead of blowing it up? Put a statue of Haughey on it? Or else relocating it?

You have been told time and time again on this thread. The trust in charge of the column refused to engage with Dublin council in regard to changes. The councils hands were tied. When it was blown up, the council still had to go and ask the trusts permission to remove the rest as it was their property. The trust agreed to them removing the rest so long as they weren't liable for any damage caused.

You need to be asking whoever was in charge of this trust why they wouldn't play ball, or stump up for renovating the thing. Sure weren't they making a fortune from people going up for the view?

Just out of interest, what had Haughey achieved in his career by 1966 that merited a statue of him being erected?

maryishere · 10-03-2016 02:13AM

pablo128 wrote: »

You need to be asking whoever was in charge of this trust why they wouldn't play ball, or stump up for renovating the thing. Sure weren't they making a fortune from people going up for the view?

They were giving the proceeds to charity, each and every year. And it was a very popular tourist attraction.

maryishere · 10-03-2016 02:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

"These islands" were not at war in some sort of joint endeavour as your misleadingly claiming. The British regime was at war with other forces in Europe. Forces in Ireland were at war with the British.

I always understood thats what some people believed, and continue to believe. However you are failing to understand that quite a lot of people at least in Dublin thought of the bigger picture, and considered the threat from France, Spain etc.
Many people had benefited from the economic boom in the 1780s. As said earlier, canals extended from Dublin westwards and the Four Courts and Post Office were established. Dublin's granite-lined quays were built and it boasted that it was the 'second city of the empire'. Catholics had equal votes with Protestants.

To use an analogy with WW1....the government of these islands then was also at war with other forces in Europe, and 206,000 Irishmen volunteered to join the British Army to fight. Or are you wanting to airbrush them out of history too?

10-03-2016 02:35AM

maryishere wrote: »

and considered the threat from France, Spain etc.

Threat? To whom? The vast majority of the Irish population? Who were assisting the United Irishmen again?

Catholics had equal votes with Protestants.

Big deal when they were forbidden to sit in parliament or become senior state officials. So to claim "these islands" were at war in the collective sense is inaccurate to say the least.

Nelson's Pillar

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