Nelson's Pillar

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 08:23PM

nacho libre wrote: »

How is it not a fair question? You, and other people championing the British empire, were asked a direction question about what is there to glorify about the British empire? By accusing him of trolling, it comes across as you are just avoiding the question because you don't want to answer it. That's childish carry on.

That was an earlier question that I had answered.

Nodin now wants to know why they shouldn't be glorified, a question to which he obviously knows the answer to, because he nevers shuts up about it.

He is trolling.

BTW, do we now call shinnerbots SOFS Bots?

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 08:32PM

maryishere wrote: »

Most Dubliners, and many tourists, had been up in the pillar and had admired the tremendous unrivalled view from above the main street, over the rest of Dublin. It was part of Dublin.

The Pillar was seen as part of the general architecture of Dublin that had been built by the British in preceding centuries, just like the Custom House, the House of Parliament (now Bank of Ireland) on College Green, Trinity College, Dublin Castle, the Four Courts etc. There's no evidence whatsoever it was hated or resented by ordinary Dubliners.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 08:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. Russell went to the Russia first before Germany and was turned away, does that many him (and the IRA of the era) communists? Of course not, Russell was a militant and didn't give two ****s about ideology apart from Republican irredentism.

He very much subscribed to the classic Fenian idea of 'Englands difficulty was Irelands opportunity' and thats what led him to Germany not a subscription to Nazism. Also you have to contextualise it too, people didnt know the true extent of Nazism and what little information that did exist was dismissed by many as propaganda, I mean the Irish people had witnessed similar propaganda issued against the IRA just two decades previously.

Oh that's ok then.

You have to wonder what deal was struck, was it just a straightforward invasion and subjugation of Ireland, or a more amenable Vichy style collaboration?

Either way, I guess the deportation of a few jews, communists etc would have been a foregone conclusion.

trashcan · 09-03-2016 08:37PM

maryishere wrote: »

As a viewing platform to see over the city , and tourist attraction, it could rival the Statue of Liberty, which is only 111 ft hight from feet to tip of head...and hundreds of millions of people have climbed it since it was built. Nelsons pillar was 134 ft high, with 168 steps to the viewing platform. Would have been lovely to see Dublin from up there. I think it should be rebuilt, out of respect to the past and to get tens of millions in tourist revenue each year, which could be given to Dublins homeless or other charities. After all, as Yeats said, " I think we should accept the whole past of this nation, and not pick and choose"

I agree the pillar itself was a loss to the city, if not Nelson at the top of it. Wish I'd had the chance to go up it. He should just have been removed and replaced. (Not with Haughey though - God forbid)

Nodin · 09-03-2016 08:38PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That was an earlier question that I had answered.

Nodin now wants to know why they shouldn't be glorified, a question to which he obviously knows the answer to, because he nevers shuts up about it.

But Fred, why can't you just say why you think they shouldn't be glorified? Every time the subject comes up theres a few here who just avoid the issue like the plague. They'll admit an Empire existed, and you've gone further than the rest in admitting it shouldn't be glorified, so why can't you just say why? It's not some elaborate trick question on my part.

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-03-2016 08:42PM

Looks like the tag team are on their keyboards after their tea

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 08:46PM

Nodin wrote: »

But Fred, why can't you just say why you think they shouldn't be glorified? Every time the subject comes up theres a few here who just avoid the issue like the plague. They'll admit an Empire existed, and you've gone further than the rest in admitting it shouldn't be glorified, so why can't you just say why? It's not some elaborate trick question on my part.

https://youtu.be/doPR-6X9h7c

maryishere · 09-03-2016 08:48PM

Nodin wrote: »

They'll admit an Empire existed.

Not just an Empire, but many Empires existed. Spain, France, Belgium etc all had empires. As said earlier even Italy also colonised Ethiopia, Eritrea, part of Somalia and administrative authority in formerly Turkish Libya. Outside of Africa, Italy possessed a small concession in Tientsin in China and the Dodecanese Islands off the coast of Turkey. Centuries past, the Spanish inquisition was not a nice time in Europe.

Now Nodin, any chance you would answer the question :Do you support the Omagh and Enniskillen bombers too?

kingchess · 09-03-2016 09:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh that's ok then.

You have to wonder what deal was struck, was it just a straightforward invasion and subjugation of Ireland, or a more amenable Vichy style collaboration?

Either way, I guess the deportation of a few jews, communists etc would have been a foregone conclusion.

I say much the same thing would have happened if the Germans had put the ex-king Edward viii -an ardent admirer of Herr Hitler by all accounts-back on the throne of England.a lot of people suspect this was the plan, a lot of people were admirers of the Nazi party and were fooled by the propaganda ,

Nodin · 09-03-2016 09:07PM

maryishere wrote: »

Not just an Empire, but many Empires existed. Spain, France, Belgium etc all had empires. As said earlier even Italy also colonised Ethiopia, Eritrea, part of Somalia and administrative authority in formerly Turkish Libya. Outside of Africa, Italy possessed a small concession in Tientsin in China and the Dodecanese Islands off the coast of Turkey. Centuries past, the Spanish inquisition was not a nice time in Europe.

Now Nodin, any chance you would answer the question :Do you support the Omagh and Enniskillen bombers too?

No, there was no need for Omagh or Enniskillen and they weren't justified at all. Happy now?

BalcombeSt4 · 09-03-2016 09:17PM

So British war "heroes" like Nelson should be glorfied but IRA/INLA freedom fighters/guerrillas should be demonised.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 09:36PM

kingchess wrote: »

I say much the same thing would have happened if the Germans had put the ex-king Edward viii -an ardent admirer of Herr Hitler by all accounts-back on the throne of England.a lot of people suspect this was the plan, a lot of people were admirers of the Nazi party and were fooled by the propaganda ,

Err, if the Germans were in a position to put Edward on the throne, they would have already invaded Britain, would they not?

But you're right, we should remove all statues of Edward viii from the towns in England and stop calling him a hero.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 09:37PM

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

IRA/INLA freedom fighters/guerrillas should be demonised.

When they are Nazi collaborators, yes they should.

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 09:38PM

maryishere wrote: »

Most Dubliners, and many tourists, had been up in the pillar and had admired the tremendous unrivalled view from above the main street, over the rest of Dublin. It was part of Dublin.

So, where was there a majority wanting to keep it?

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 09:39PM

Nodin wrote: »

No, there was no need for Omagh or Enniskillen and they weren't justified at all. Happy now?

So should the perpetrators be condemned?

kingchess · 09-03-2016 09:41PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So should the perpetrators be condemned?

Yes,

nacho libre · 09-03-2016 09:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nodin now wants to know why they shouldn't be glorified, a question to which he obviously knows the answer to, because he nevers shuts up about it.

He is trolling.

BTW, do we now call shinnerbots SOFS Bots?

So you won't answer it because you don't want to be seen to agree with him:D

I don't know. If by this you mean anyone who does not cheerlead for the British Empire, is automatically a Sinn Fein supporter, well, that's flawed thinking, Fred.

maryishere · 09-03-2016 09:47PM

Nodin wrote: »

No, there was no need for Omagh or Enniskillen and they weren't justified at all.

But you justify other republican bombings which put lives at risk?
It was a miracle nobody was killed or seriously injured when the bomb went off in Dublins main street and the street below was covered in rubble. No warning was given. The fellow who planted the bomb admits he deliberately went home and fell asleep until the next day. O'Connel street when the bomb went off could just have easily been another Enniskillen or Omagh, in human terms. If the bomb in Eniskillen and Omagh went off without the loss of life there, would you condone them then?

Its very confusing. You condone a bomb carelessly and recklessly left in Dublin, by the IRA or associated individuals, which destroyed a Dublin tourist attraction / viewing platform paid for by Dubliners by voluntary donations (inc some from the 400 Dubliners who worked with Nelson) , designed by an Irishman and built by Dubliners, and which miraculously did not kill or injure people on O'Connell st - and yet you pick and choose which bombings in N. Ireland you condone or do not condone?

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 09:48PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So, where was there a majority wanting to keep it?

There is no evidence Dubliners wanted it removed. Why would they? It was a 150 year old historic monument and the Irish state had been independent for 45 years. Ironically, if Pearse had read the proclamation from the top of the Pillar and draped a tricolour from it, it would almost certainly be still standing now and a shrine to republicanism in the way the GPO is.

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 09:50PM

Strazdas wrote: »

There is no evidence Dubliners wanted it removed. Why would they? It was a 150 year old historic monument and the Irish state had been independent for 45 years. Ironically, if Pearse had read the proclamation from the top of the Pillar and draped a tricolour from it, it would almost certainly be still standing now and a shrine to republicanism in the way the GPO is.

Where's the evidence they want it kept?

The flying mouse · 09-03-2016 09:51PM

Strazdas wrote: »

There is no evidence Dubliners wanted it removed. Why would they? It was a 150 year old historic monument and the Irish state had been independent for 45 years. Ironically, if Pearse had read the proclamation from the top of the Pillar and draped a tricolour from it, it would almost certainly be still standing now and a shrine to republicanism in the way the GPO is.

Dublin continues to debate a replacement for Nelson’s Pillar, but in its own time (1808-1966), while lording it over Dublin’s O’Connell Street, the Pillar was debated again and again in parliaments, newspapers and council chambers. A controversy that would have continued into the indefinite future was suddenly jolted on Tuesday morning, 3 March 1966. https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwieytKuvbTLAhXG1xoKHZmhB60QFgglMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historyireland.com%2F20th-century-contemporary-history%2Fnelsons-pillar%2F&usg=AFQjCNGQabLaxRbPBMvnmrMOQak7V-fUvg&sig2=J6PPHSZMPOW8E_pdGWj-UA

A little bit of research by anyone really interested in the history of the pillar and its all there, but carry on...

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 09:57PM

The flying mouse wrote: »

Dublin continues to debate a replacement for Nelson’s Pillar, but in its own time (1808-1966), while lording it over Dublin’s O’Connell Street, the Pillar was debated again and again in parliaments, newspapers and council chambers. A controversy that would have continued into the indefinite future was suddenly jolted on Tuesday morning, 3 March 1966. https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwieytKuvbTLAhXG1xoKHZmhB60QFgglMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historyireland.com%2F20th-century-contemporary-history%2Fnelsons-pillar%2F&usg=AFQjCNGQabLaxRbPBMvnmrMOQak7V-fUvg&sig2=J6PPHSZMPOW8E_pdGWj-UA

A little bit of research by anyone really interested in the history of the pillar and its all there, but carry on...

Yes, but these were mainly academic debates about the appropriateness of having a British naval person on top of a monument in O'Connell Street. This does not equate to ordinary Dubliners wanting their main thoroughfare bombed by the IRA and one of the most famous and identifiable landmarks in the city being blown to smithereens.

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 09:59PM

maryishere wrote: »

But you justify other republican bombings which put lives at risk?
It was a miracle nobody was killed or seriously injured when the bomb went off in Dublins main street and the street below was covered in rubble. No warning was given. The fellow who planted the bomb admits he deliberately went home and fell asleep until the next day. O'Connel street when the bomb went off could just have easily been another Enniskillen or Omagh, in human terms. If the bomb in Eniskillen and Omagh went off without the loss of life there, would you condone them then?

Its very confusing. You condone a bomb carelessly and recklessly left in Dublin, by the IRA or associated individuals, which destroyed a Dublin tourist attraction / viewing platform paid for by Dubliners by voluntary donations (inc some from the 400 Dubliners who worked with Nelson) , designed by an Irishman and built by Dubliners, and which miraculously did not kill or injure people on O'Connell st - and yet you pick and choose which bombings in N. Ireland you condone or do not condone?

First of all, why do you keep bringing up Omagh? That was dissident republicans. I don't want to speak on behalf of Nodin but going by anything I've read from him he certainly doesn't support dissidents.

Do you see the likes of Gregory Campbell as your kinsman? If not, then why do you keep trying to suggest southern unionists who were involved in the erection of the pillar were representative of the Irish population?

You are here questioning others about what killings they do or don't justify yet are the biggest Empire cheerleader the forum has probably ever seen. Are you a bit simple?

The flying mouse · 09-03-2016 10:10PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, but these were mainly academic debates about the appropriateness of having a British naval person on top of a monument in O'Connell Street. This does not equate to ordinary Dubliners wanting their main thoroughfare bombed by the IRA and one of the most famous and identifiable landmarks in the city being blown to smithereens.

Can you show me some evidence where ordinary dubliners wanted it kept ?

I am in my fifties and growing up i don't remember any one who wanted it kept there, I would go and far and say the majority of dubliners were glad it was gone.

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 10:16PM

The flying mouse wrote: »

Can you show me some evidence where ordinary dubliners wanted it kept ?

I am in my fifties and growing up i don't remember any one who wanted it kept there, I would go and far and say the majority of dubliners were glad it was gone.

Why would they want it removed.....as an eyesore that was ruining the look of O'Connell Street or something? It seems to be the case that nearly every single person in Dublin climbed it's staircase at some point and looked out over Dublin from it's viewing platform. That doesn't sound anything like a city that was irritated or angered by it's presence.

maryishere · 09-03-2016 10:18PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

First of all, why do you keep bringing up Omagh? That was dissident republicans.

So bombings by republicans who are not "dissident" are ok?

But the republicans who planted the Omagh bomb also had no mandate, they they took it upon themselves to bomb a target because of its British connections.

If the bomb in O'Connell st had (heaven forbid) killed a group of people nearby with the falling masonry ( like the Enniskillen bomb did with a smaller amount of stone / masonry ) what would the shinnerbots say?

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 10:20PM

maryishere wrote: »

So bombings by republicans who are not "dissident" are ok?

But the republicans who planted the Omagh bomb also had no mandate, they they took it upon themselves to bomb a target because of its British connections.

If the bomb in O'Connell st had (heaven forbid) killed a group of people nearby with the falling masonry ( like the Enniskillen bomb did with a smaller amount of stone / masonry ) what would the shinnerbots say?

Who said they were all OK? Was every murder carried out by the British OK?

Britain never had a mandate in Ireland. Really want to go down the mandate road?

That didn't happen, deal with it

maryishere · 09-03-2016 10:27PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Who said they were all OK?

I am asking you that- why some posters here would condone some republican bombings? If the bombing of Nelson Pillar killed say a dozen people, as could heaven forbid easily have happened, would you still think it was a great idea?

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 10:29PM

maryishere wrote: »

I am asking you that- why some posters here would condone some republican bombings? If the bombing of Nelson Pillar killed say a dozen people, as could heaven forbid easily have happened, would you still think it was a great idea?

If you thought Britain engaging in WW2 meant 5 billion people would be wiped out, do you think that would be a good idea? Would you be here celebrating our great defenders of liberty then? Hypotheticals are great, aren't they?

09-03-2016 10:37PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When they are Nazi collaborators, yes they should.

It seems like you're going to have to demonise the vast majority of the British political elite in the 1930s, and the tens of thousands of British imperialists/nationalists who volunteered to help the Nazis occupy the Sudetenland in 1938, if collaboration with Nazism is the qualification.

Nelson's Pillar

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