Nelson's Pillar

Laois_Man · 09-03-2016 01:56PM

Nodin wrote: »

In O'Connell st about 01.32 am on the eighth of march.

And again on March 14th when the Army finished the job accompanied by street parties around Dublin

My name is URL · 09-03-2016 02:05PM

maryishere wrote: »

I know history.

My name is URL wrote: »

I wonder if Fred and Mary and their merry band of monument enthusiasts get so upset whenever the statue of Sean Russell get's damaged and vandalised, which happens on an almost annual basis.

I'm thinking not?

maryishere wrote: »

Sean who?

This is just too funny

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 02:18PM

My name is URL wrote: »

This is just too funny

Had to Google him myself. Seems he was an IRA man who collaborated with the Nazis but is a hero to dissident Republicans. Strangely, our state's history books don't give much attention to such an individual.

TheHillOfDoom · 09-03-2016 02:28PM

And feminists burned their bras. Rowdy feckers.

steddyeddy · 09-03-2016 02:31PM

The OP contributed exactly one post to this thread. Just like all their other posts in this matter.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 02:31PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Had to Google him myself. Seems he was an IRA man who collaborated with the Nazis but is a hero to dissident Republicans. Strangely, our state's history books don't give much attention to such an individual.

Not just dissident republicans. There is a statue in Fairview which was built and maintained by the National Graves Association.

Sinn Fein have held rallies there as well.

Dyr · 09-03-2016 02:33PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not just dissident republicans. There is a statue in Fairview which was built and maintained by the National Graves Association.

Sinn Fein have held rallies there as well.

And a fine statue it is.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 02:36PM

Bambi wrote: »

And a fine statue it is.

Thanks to the fences and cctv put in to stop it being vandalised.

I wonder where his arm went?

Dyr · 09-03-2016 02:38PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Thanks to the fences and cctv put in to stop it being vandalised.

I wonder where his arm went?

Thanks to its fine workmanship, a testimony to the NGA so it is.

Mesrine65 · 09-03-2016 02:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Thanks to the fences and cctv put in to stop it being vandalised.

I wonder where his arm went?

Give it up Fred, where'd you put his arm, stop fucking around now...not funny?! :P

FTA69 · 09-03-2016 02:40PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Thanks to the fences and cctv put in to stop it being vandalised.

I wonder where his arm went?

It was knocked off by right-wing lunatics who thought he was giving a Communist salute.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 02:40PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Give it up Fred, where'd you put his arm, stop fucking around now...not funny?! :P

Maybe it is scratching Nelson's ear somewhere on Killiney Beach

FA Hayek · 09-03-2016 02:49PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It was knocked off by right-wing lunatics who thought he was giving a Communist salute.

You are forgetting that the statue was decapitated by anti-fascists fascists as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Russell#Attacks_on_memorial_to_Se.C3.A1n_Russell

So what can we all learn from this?

Mesrine65 · 09-03-2016 02:51PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

You are forgetting that the statue was decapitated by anti-fascists fascists as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Russell#Attacks_on_memorial_to_Se.C3.A1n_Russell

So what can we all learn from this?

Commies & fascists are **** of a different shade?

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 02:55PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

If there was a mandate to remove the statue and a proper debate then that is another story

Where was the mandate from the people to put it up?

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 02:56PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not just dissident republicans. There is a statue in Fairview which was built and maintained by the National Graves Association.

Sinn Fein have held rallies there as well.

He seems an unusual choice to have a statue erected to. As an IRA man in 1940, he would have been dedicated to the overthrow of the Irish state and presumably would have been quite happy to see a German invasion of the country.

FA Hayek · 09-03-2016 02:57PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Commies & fascists are **** of a different shade?

Yeap! Defacing, vandalising or blowing up statues on a whim without any democratic mandate, debate or discussion is the hobby of dickheads and **** from both extreme ends of the spectrum. All the same sides of the coin who profess they are doing it for the good of the people. Knobs the lot of them, from ISIS to the Taliban, to Mao and the IRA idiots who have fanboys here.

If you have an opinion then by all means air it and convince people like mature adults. Don't go off and blow something up cause you want to. Are you a thug or civilised.

Dyr · 09-03-2016 02:58PM

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Commies & fascists are **** of a different shade?

That Sean Russell pissed of all the right people?

Dev had it in for him too.

FA Hayek · 09-03-2016 03:01PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Where was the mandate from the people to put it up?

It was paid for by the people of Dublin at the time using voluntary fundraising.

Mesrine65 · 09-03-2016 03:03PM

Bambi wrote: »

Dev had it in for him too.

Dev, England’s greatest spy...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/ryle-dwyer/so-dev-was-englands-greatest-spy-yes-and-the-devil-in-disguise-too-104543.html

Eugene Norman · 09-03-2016 03:13PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Seems to have touched a nerve, have we? There is a very obvious trend by extremist fanatical elements to use force and violence to cleanse cultural and physical elements from the landscape in order to usher in a new era of said new ideology. This is nothing new.

The Soviets blew up the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in 1931, one of most important cathedrals of the Russian orthodox religion, to be replaced by a more appropriate building for Stalinism and Communism called 'The palace of the Soviets'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour#Demolition
This was one of many examples of Soviet Russia

The Nazi's systematically tried to dismantle all traces of Judaism and 'Jewry' from Europe. People burned as well as buildings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Riga_synagogues

The Chinese under Mao destroyed 6,000 monasteries and killed 1 million Tibetans under the ironic title of 'The great leap forward' and 'The cultural revolution'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#From_1950_to_present

The Taliban in 2001 blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan as they considered them false satanic idols.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan

ISIS have been blowing up all kinds of ancient ruins over the past few years as they see them as non Islamic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_ISIL#Palmyra

The IRA blowing up Nelsons pilar along with other examples like Lord Gough's monument is similar to the examples used above and shows the kind of mindset behind the ideology, that Ireland had to be cleansed of all Anglo influences like it were some disease. Utterly jingoistic, utterly extreme, utter nationalist thinking.

It is noticeable that not many actually try and defend the blowing up of the statue or pilar outright as they would be accused rightly of a similar mindset of the examples I have linked above. Instead they go on about Empire, da Brits, da prods, and so on as a side ways method to try and argue indirectly that blowing up statues was in the grand scheme of things was a very good thing.

These are the same people who will go on endlessly about international treaties, laws, legal rights and human rights, once of course it suits their own agenda and ideology. However, that goes out the windows when something extra judicial happens they agree with. Just think Sinn Fein castigating, rightly the Roman Catholic Church for moving abuse victims around parishes. Yet, we only found out the past few months that Sinn Fein were doing the same thing with sex abusers. Law and order for some, extra judicial action and knee capping for others. This is the mindset of these people.

You seem to have cherry picked your examples.

Here's a few more:

The ex communist states in Eastern Europe got rid of statues of Lenin, Stalin, local communist leaders and more.

The Americans knocked down, with local help, the statues of saddam Hussein.

Across the world statues of previous invaders, or ex dictators are knocked down. I'm sure a few hitler statues hit the dust in their day, and Mussolini too.

Removing a statue = Isis is not even the beginning of an argument. It's beyond stupid. Isis is the new Godwin (except you also Godwined so a double for you).

(Incidently and parenthically, in British history there is however an Isis type destruction -- in the British reformation. That was based on the same kind of hostility to the catholic past and iconography that Isis now display, in fact they acted on the same fundamentalist literalist dislike of any iconography. But to compare removing, say, Rhodes to that would be equally absurd. )

As for the rest of your argument "these are the same people" I will let you fight with those strawmen on your own.

I'm counting cherry picking, argument to false equivalence, two Godwins and a entire paragraph of strawmen. Good work

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 03:33PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You seem to have cherry picked your examples.

Here's a few more:

The ex communist states in Eastern Europe got rid of statues of Lenin, Stalin, local communist leaders and more.

The Americans knocked down, with local help, the statues of saddam Hussein.

Across the world statues of previous invaders, or ex dictators are knocked down. I'm sure a few hitler statues hit the dust in their day, and Mussolini too.

Removing a statue = Isis is not even the beginning of an argument. It's beyond stupid. Isis is the new Godwin (except you also Godwined so a double for you).

In British history however there's an Isis type destruction in the British reformation. That was based on the same kind of hostility to the catholic past and iconography that Isis display, and acted on the same fundamentalist dislike of any iconography. But to compare removing, say, Rhodes to that would be equally absurd.

As for the rest of your argument "these are the same people" I will let you fight with those strawmen on your own.

I'm counting cherry picking, argument to false equivalence, two Godwins and a entire paragraph of strawmen. Good work

The Pillar had been in place for 45 years of Irish independence though. Anyone aged 50 or under in 1966 would have had no living memory of British rule and would have grown up seeing the Pillar as part of an independent Irish state. If it was going to be removed for it's "Britishness", that should have happened in 1923 or so. A bunch of hate filled bigots arbitrarily blowing it up in 1966 was just plain vandalism.

LordSutch · 09-03-2016 03:43PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The Pillar had been in place for 45 years of Irish independence though. Anyone aged 50 or under in 1966 would have had no living memory of British rule and would have grown up seeing the Pillar as part of an independent Irish state. If it was going to be removed for it's "Britishness", that should have happened in 1923 or so. A bunch of hate filled bigots arbitrarily blowing it up in 1966 was just plain vandalism.

I think that if they hated Lord Nelson so much then all they had to do was to take up position on the roof of the GPO and shoot at Nelson's statue blowing it to bits!

But surely they could have left the Pillar intact

Yamanoto · 09-03-2016 03:47PM

FTA69 wrote: »

People removing a gaudy statue glorifying imperialism is not comparable with blowing up Palmyra for instance.

The rationale behind both acts seems remarkably similar to me - something offends my sensibilities and doesn't chime with my own particular world view, therefore I'm gonna destroy it. No discussion, no other opinions matter & don't deserve the least bit of respect. I'm right 'cos I know I'm right.

People vandalising things they take exception to is rightly considered an obnoxious act in a civilised society & the destruction of that monument was both wholly undemocratic in nature & utterly contemptous of the values underpinning a modern republic. You might well say the British empire (& by extension symbols of it), were also out of kilter with those values, but such symbols weren't being erected in modern Ireland & the fact they remained in situ in certain places was in no way indicative of a tacit approval of British misdeeds.

Discussion and considered examination of the issues surrounding Nelson's pillar should have been what informed the plan of action.

Instead, we got a solo run by a goon with no mandate.

FTA69 wrote: »

What it is comparable with is the likes of the Iraqis pulling down statues of Hussein.

Is it?

Nelson's pillar stood mostly unmolested for more than 40 years post independence, during which time Dubliner's in the main regarded it as little more than a focal point & familiar landmark - long part of the fabric of the city & a largely benign presence at that. It had been shorn of the triumphalist pomposity it might have possessed at some point long past, its potency as a symbol of oppression neutered by history and circumstance.

For most folks, who it was & what it symbolised really were secondary concerns to where it was, what it looked like & how long it had been there.

For Iraqi's on the other hand, symbols of the Ba'athist regime & Saddam in particular naturally prompted a visceral response, imbued as they were with a tangible power & menace so far at odds with how Dubliner's regarded Nelson's pillar in '66, as to defy any sort of meaningful comparison.

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 03:50PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The Pillar had been in place for 45 years of Irish independence though. Anyone aged 50 or under in 1966 would have had no living memory of British rule and would have grown up seeing the Pillar as part of an independent Irish state. If it was going to be removed for it's "Britishness", that should have happened in 1923 or so. A bunch of hate filled bigots arbitrarily blowing it up in 1966 was just plain vandalism.

All the other statues/monuments were far, far easier to dispose of, Nelson was far bigger and higher up than the Gough, George or Queen Vic statues.

09-03-2016 03:51PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

It was paid for by the people of Dublin at the time using voluntary fundraising.

Hardly proof of a mandate, who did the money come from?

LordSutch · 09-03-2016 03:53PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

All the other statues/monuments were far, far easier to dispose of, Nelson was far bigger and higher up than the Gough, George or Queen Vic statues.

So why didn't they do as I suggested in post #684 ?

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 03:55PM

LordSutch wrote: »

So why didn't they do as I suggested in post #684 ?

Lol. With small arms? You might make a few marks and grazes on it, but you'll not 'blow it up' with rifle fire. It was solid granite, you'd need an artillery piece!

And you even with one, you'd maybe have to have more than one go at it.

LordSutch · 09-03-2016 03:58PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Lol. With small arms? You might make a few marks and grazes on it, but you'll not 'blow it up' with rifle fire. It was solid granite, you'd need an artillery piece!

I thought they might have had have access to a portable but heavier gun? But it was just a thought.

(Such a waste blowing up the whole monument/pillar).

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 04:00PM

LordSutch wrote: »

I thought they might have had have access to a portable but heavier gun? But it was just a thought.

(Such a waste blowing up the whole monument/pillar).

In 1923 they had bigger fish to fry than going about remodelling a statue.

Nelson's Pillar

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