Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

onrail · 28-02-2016 12:19am

Open to correction here but I recall from 2008/just pre-crash, ESBI offering €36k to grads in 2008, Some of the bigger consultancies were offering €30-33k.

domrush · 28-02-2016 1:23am

onrail wrote: »

Open to correction here but I recall from 2008/just pre-crash, ESBI offering €36k to grads in 2008, Some of the bigger consultancies were offering €30-33k.

ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.

godtabh · 29-02-2016 11:20am

domrush wrote: »

ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.

Many would regret going down the engineering route!

onrail · 29-02-2016 1:40pm

domrush wrote: »

ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.

Despite the lower pay, I have no regrets going down the consultancy route (if given a choice of the two). Working hours, stress and a lack of security in working location makes contracting really really tough going - but it does suit certain types of people.

As above - many regret going down the engineering route full-stop. Even with current demand for grads, salaries are much higher almost anywhere else long term.

If money is a key consideration, I would head down the business route (Mgmt Consultancy or accounting - do a 1 year Masters if necessary); if work-life balance dictates, I would advise teaching.

domrush · 29-02-2016 7:17pm

onrail wrote: »

Despite the lower pay, I have no regrets going down the consultancy route (if given a choice of the two). Working hours, stress and a lack of security in working location makes contracting really really tough going - but it does suit certain types of people.

As above - many regret going down the engineering route full-stop. Even with current demand for grads, salaries are much higher almost anywhere else long term.

If money is a key consideration, I would head down the business route (Mgmt Consultancy or accounting - do a 1 year Masters if necessary); if work-life balance dictates, I would advise teaching.

To be honest I enjoy the work, and after interning for 9 months and completing 5 years of study (Masters) I feel I've put too much in o back out at this stage.

Have salaries always been so poor? Surely before the crash civil/structs earned a decent wage near the other professions ?

onrail · 01-03-2016 9:57am

domrush wrote: »

To be honest I enjoy the work, and after interning for 9 months and completing 5 years of study (Masters) I feel I've put too much in o back out at this stage.

Have salaries always been so poor? Surely before the crash civil/structs earned a decent wage near the other professions ?

Understandable - the only people I would encourage to enter the profession are those who have a true love of the subject and who enjoy the work. They will be excellent engineers and progress quickly through the ranks.

Even after 5-6 years of experience, myself and many others are considering trying to move away from the sector and regret not doing so sooner - so I wouldn't let the idea that you've gone 'too far' get in the way.

There are too many who entered a Civil Eng college course with an ill-founded notion that the massive profits of the house-building sector (post-crash) were somehow comparable with Civil Eng Salaries. While salaries did rise at the time, in truth it was/is always the accountants/solicitors who made the most. Given the current demand for grads, what you'll probably find is that your salary is going to be greater than counterparts in accountancy/law for 2-4 years. Once they fully qualify, their € will take off, while yours will flatline to a certain extent.

In truth, the salaries aren't terrible (probably comparable with Nurses/teachers without the added perks they get) but given our skills, attributes and the demands of the job they should be an awful lot better.

domrush · 01-03-2016 2:52pm

While I suppose I don't ever expect to earn the same as doctors/lawyers etc (whether or not engineers deserve it is another story), surely directors or others with 20+ years exp in large consultancies can expect to earn over 70k a year?

domrush · 01-03-2016 2:54pm

onrail wrote: »

Understandable - the only people I would encourage to enter the profession are those who have a true love of the subject and who enjoy the work. They will be excellent engineers and progress quickly through the ranks.

Even after 5-6 years of experience, myself and many others are considering trying to move away from the sector and regret not doing so sooner - so I wouldn't let the idea that you've gone 'too far' get in the way.

There are too many who entered a Civil Eng college course with an ill-founded notion that the massive profits of the house-building sector (post-crash) were somehow comparable with Civil Eng Salaries. While salaries did rise at the time, in truth it was/is always the accountants/solicitors who made the most. Given the current demand for grads, what you'll probably find is that your salary is going to be greater than counterparts in accountancy/law for 2-4 years. Once they fully qualify, their € will take off, while yours will flatline to a certain extent.

In truth, the salaries aren't terrible (probably comparable with Nurses/teachers without the added perks they get) but given our skills, attributes and the demands of the job they should be an awful lot better.

What other industries would you consider moving to out of interest?

onrail · 01-03-2016 4:04pm

domrush wrote: »

While I suppose I don't ever expect to earn the same as doctors/lawyers etc (whether or not engineers deserve it is another story), surely directors or others with 20+ years exp in large consultancies can expect to earn over 70k a year?

Yep - a director should be somewhere in the 70k to 85k region, but Chartered Accountants will be earning similar money to that in less than 10 years.

At the minute, have one colleague considering secondary teaching, two former classmates training for primary teaching. A few others enrolling in MBAs to try enter Banking/Finance.

I'm looking into Management Consulting and what might be required for entry - ideally would like to avoid the expense of a masters but it may be necessary.

con1982 · 02-03-2016 11:11pm

godtabh wrote: »

Many would regret going down the engineering route!

I know the feeling. . . .

godtabh · 07-03-2016 11:07pm

I spoke with the head of school of engineering in DIT over the weekend. They have a class of 30 graduating this year which is more than TCD and UCD combined. Fluck me.

Chemical Byrne · 08-03-2016 11:06am

I don't know about the rest of the country but i'm with a multinational consultancy in Cork. Things were lean enough the past 2 years but since January things have taken a turn for the better.
The carpark outside is bursting at the seams where 2 years ago it would be only 2/3's full. The most recent development is 5 new people having started here yesterday. There have been across the board not insubstantial raises too of >15% in most cases from what I hear.

Might we be turning the corner?

onrail · 08-03-2016 7:24pm

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of the country but i'm with a multinational consultancy in Cork. Things were lean enough the past 2 years but since January things have taken a turn for the better.
The carpark outside is bursting at the seams where 2 years ago it would be only 2/3's full. The most recent development is 5 new people having started here yesterday. There have been across the board not insubstantial raises too of >15% in most cases from what I hear.

Might we be turning the corner?

From a pure employment perspective - certainly.

The amount of positions you see advertised has increased substantially over the last 6-12 months, likely on the back of various big IW and Motorway projects kicking off. BUT... following a recent tender we lost to a ridiculous bid, it's evident consultancies are still 'buying jobs' to keep cashflow going.

Don't see fees and/or salaries increasing substantially while such practices continue.

aquascrotum · 23-03-2016 6:47pm

Am 12 yrs qualified, CEng civil / environmental, I have a senior (director in all but name) role in an SME consultancy.

There's an incredible dearth of talent at the moment. Salaries are in the middle of rocketing driven by a boost in workload and anticipation of more, but simply put there arent enough good engineers to go round at the moment. We lost a very mediocre guy to another company for a ridiculous offer. We'll be tabling 10%+ increases to staff over the next few months to keep staff on kilter with whats going on in the marketplace. We've gone looking for graduates and everyone of value had had a job tied up since last November. One particular specialism must have seen salaries go up by 20-30%+ in the last 12 months, driven by anticipation (not actual delivery) of work coming out of one particular politically unpopular institution whose future looks less than rosey...?!

The worrying thing is (as mooted in previous posts) - fees are continuing to drop. Personally I'm unclear as to how consultancies can increase a significant overhead by say 10% + but continue to buy work, especially consultancies who remain leveraged to the hilt.

There is definitely a big problem coming about in terms of supply of good staff. My worry is that the demand is anticipatory rather than actual. In our own instance we have cash in the bank and I think we'll see this little bubble out, but if people don't quit the race to the bottom of the fee pile and / or the anticipated glut of work doesn't arrive (the 2 are linked...a lot of the companies most active in taking on expensive new staff are the ones buying the work in my recent experience), we're (as in the industry rather than my wee firm) going to wind up being back laying off staff we can't afford to keep, again.

onrail · 24-03-2016 9:30am

aquascrotum wrote: »

The worrying thing is (as mooted in previous posts) - fees are continuing to drop. Personally I'm unclear as to how consultancies can increase a significant overhead by say 10% + but continue to buy work, especially consultancies who remain leveraged to the hilt.

Great post - but what's the solution?

Personally, I'm a bit away (in terms of experience) from a Director role within my consultancy but it makes my blood boil that the decision makers continue to cut the throat of others whilst barely scraping by.

Not one to advocate a cartel scenario, but industry leaders need to have a round table discussion regarding fees and what our skills are worth as a minimum.

As professionals, we're worth far far more than what we're selling ourselves as.

aquascrotum · 24-03-2016 10:48am

onrail wrote: »

Great post - but what's the solution?

Personally, I'm a bit away (in terms of experience) from a Director role within my consultancy but it makes my blood boil that the decision makers continue to cut the throat of others whilst barely scraping by.

Not one to advocate a cartel scenario, but industry leaders need to have a round table discussion regarding fees and what our skills are worth as a minimum.

As professionals, we're worth far far more than what we're selling ourselves as.

Its a strategic decision on what margin you want to make (need..). I can see why in say a multidisciplinary consultancy tendering for a multidisciplinary project that an MD would cut the sh*te out of a civils fee knowing he'll get good margin on say M+E, an in an "I'm alright jack" way the MD will be grand and his civils dept can swivel.

Equally though theres a cycle of small SME's continuing to drive prices down (because they can - less overheads) but the multinationals are following them, and beating them, and its a self sustaining destructive cycle. I tendered for a pitifully small job a few weeks back, tenders were 2 SMEs and one multinational, the MN won by a solid 20% on a job that the total fee was under £3k...that company probably couldnt pay the admin to set the project up internally for the money they won the work at.

There are some very short sighted fear-driven or utterly speculation-driven decisions being made out there at the minute imo, and a serious lack in places of any far sighted strategic view of where we as paid individuals and as a professional industry want to place ourselves. It's not a very good reflection on "us" as an industry.

Low Energy Eng · 24-03-2016 11:36am

onrail wrote: »

As professionals, we're worth far far more than what we're selling ourselves as.

Unfortunately, you're not.
You are worth what the market is willing to pay. The market is saturated.
It's not nice, but it's the reality.

When demand comes back, your earnings will rise, perhaps then you will feel satisfied for what the market is offering.

This is capitalism - ireland is still exiting the biggest property BUBBLE the world has ever seen.
Bigger than the tulip mania.

Embrace it.

onrail · 24-03-2016 2:07pm

onrail wrote: »

As professionals, we're worth far far more than what we're selling ourselves as.

Agree with your comment re market saturation - perhaps I should rephrase:

"As highly numerate, highly educated, articulate and dedicated professionals, working in a high pressure and litigious industry; we as individuals are underpaid when compared to counterparts in careers with similar demands"

apeking · 31-03-2016 9:30pm

Just to give you a perspective from someone who did leave.

I qualified in 2005 from TCD, worked for 5 years as a site engineer. Really enjoyed the work but hours were long.

I was made redundant in 2010, applied for a trainee accountant role with the top 10 accountancy firms. Got a trainee contract and started my Accountsncy exams through the trainee contract in 2010. Started on €20k but salary increases every year when passed exams. Qualified as an accountant in 2014 with wages up to €45k at that stage.

Now earning close to €70k with bonus, decent pension on top of that.

The engineering qualification/ experience on site has definitely helped me progress. Some of the people who I qualified as an accountant with would still be on 45k now as they lack real world experience as such.

onrail · 31-03-2016 11:30pm

apeking wrote: »

Just to give you a perspective from someone who did leave.

I qualified in 2005 from TCD, worked for 5 years as a site engineer. Really enjoyed the work but hours were long.

I was made redundant in 2010, applied for a trainee accountant role with the top 10 accountancy firms. Got a trainee contract and started my Accountsncy exams through the trainee contract in 2010. Started on €20k but salary increases every year when passed exams. Qualified as an accountant in 2014 with wages up to €45k at that stage.

Now earning close to €70k with bonus, decent pension on top of that.

The engineering qualification/ experience on site has definitely helped me progress. Some of the people who I qualified as an accountant with would still be on 45k now as they lack real world experience as such.

Great to hear - and fair play. You'd need to be working a fair few years (and be good!) to earn that in CE!

Problem with me (and I'd imagine many others like me) is that it's difficult to take such a plunge to that temporary 20k - whether it be circumstance or pride!

Sounds a bit insensitive, but redundancy would almost be a welcome 'shove' for some...

engineerfear1 · 16-04-2016 10:54am

Does anyone have any guidance on current salaries for different levels of experience? I'm finding it difficult to gauge whether what my current employer is paying me is on par with other companies.

I have roughly 4 years experience in civil/structural engineering, not chartered but I will be applying chartership next year. I am a hard worker and I am driven to succeed, which I think they know.

I understand that there is a lack of engineering graduates coming out of college and hope this puts me in a good position, but if I ever sit down to discuss my salary with my company I would like to know what I can be realistically paid.

What kind of salary bracket would you expect for an engineer with 4 years experience in the construction industry?

Dunphus · 16-04-2016 2:56pm

engineerfear1 wrote: »

Does anyone have any guidance on current salaries for different levels of experience? I'm finding it difficult to gauge whether what my current employer is paying me is on par with other companies.

I have roughly 4 years experience in civil/structural engineering, not chartered but I will be applying chartership next year. I am a hard worker and I am driven to succeed, which I think they know.

I understand that there is a lack of engineering graduates coming out of college and hope this puts me in a good position, but if I ever sit down to discuss my salary with my company I would like to know what I can be realistically paid.

What kind of salary bracket would you expect for an engineer with 4 years experience in the construction industry?

There are a couple of salary surveys available but your best bet is to go on Irishjobs.ie and see what people are willing to pay for engineers with similar experience as yourself. It's likely to be a bit above what you're on now to draw people to switch but there's no better way to find the market rate.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-04-2016 3:52pm

Dunphus wrote: »

There are a couple of salary surveys available but your best bet is to go on Irishjobs.ie and see what people are willing to pay for engineers with similar experience as yourself. It's likely to be a bit above what you're on now to draw people to switch but there's no better way to find the market rate.

I would recommend the various free online salary surveys. Many advertised jobs do not give the salary, or your impression can be skewed by a low sample depending on how often you look at it. Many higher, better paid jobs, I feel never make it to those openly advertised sites.
My experience is that the surveys give a pretty accurate picture of what I have experienced both for myself and others.

onrail · 11-09-2016 8:30pm

How are things going in Dublin now folks? I'm hearing plenty about a shortage of Engineers for housing and infrastructure - is this having any impact whatsoever on pay?

godtabh · 14-09-2016 2:36pm

onrail wrote: »

How are things going in Dublin now folks? I'm hearing plenty about a shortage of Engineers for housing and infrastructure - is this having any impact whatsoever on pay?

depends on what experience bracket you fit in to.

onrail · 15-09-2016 1:06pm

godtabh wrote: »

depends on what experience bracket you fit in to.

Out of interest:

1. Grads
2. Pre-chartered (4-6 years exp)
3. 10 years experience CEng

Any ideas? I fit into (2) myself

thebsharp · 15-09-2016 7:18pm

I was looking a year or so ago and 37-40k was about the salary for a few ones I applied for. 6 years experience civil in consultancy. There was still a race to the bottom tendering 6 months ago so doubt salaires would have risen considerably

onrail · 16-09-2016 8:10pm

thebsharp wrote: »

I was looking a year or so ago and 37-40k was about the salary for a few ones I applied for. 6 years experience civil in consultancy. There was still a race to the bottom tendering 6 months ago so doubt salaires would have risen considerably

So, after all this talk of skills shortages and trying to lure students into construction... salaries are still dreadful

thebsharp · 16-09-2016 9:11pm

One of the multi-nationals was offering about 45k but with no overtime the hours worked would have meant being less well off overall. Reluctantly I chose to leave the civil profession.

onrail · 16-09-2016 9:14pm

thebsharp wrote: »

One of the multi-nationals was offering about 45k but with no overtime the hours worked would have meant being less well off overall. Reluctantly I chose to leave the civil profession.

To where or what, would you mind me asking?

thebsharp · 16-09-2016 9:33pm

I'm working as a project manager in the energy sector, pay is just over 50k so not leaps and bounds more but the sector has a more positive outlook. Some of the Irish companies involved are making big progress overseas which is great to see as well. My position is focused on delivering projects so I envisage this kind of role opening doors to a number of industries if I work hard at it and keep developing.

I keep hoping as a country we'll start taking civil infrastructure investment more seriously.

onrail · 18-09-2016 9:44pm

thebsharp wrote: »

I'm working as a project manager in the energy sector, pay is just over 50k so not leaps and bounds more but the sector has a more positive outlook. Some of the Irish companies involved are making big progress overseas which is great to see as well. My position is focused on delivering projects so I envisage this kind of role opening doors to a number of industries if I work hard at it and keep developing.

I keep hoping as a country we'll start taking civil infrastructure investment more seriously.

How do you find hours and stress levels? I always get the impression that project management positions are fairly intensive?

Fair play to you getting out of Civils though. We'd all be on the same ship if we had the financial/personal freedom to take a leap of faith

godtabh · 19-09-2016 10:18pm

onrail wrote: »

How do you find hours and stress levels? I always get the impression that project management positions are fairly intensive?

Its rare if ever you will find a high paying job that isnt stressful. Companies are going to give you lots of money to have an easy life. The higher up the food chain you go the higher the stress and the higher the reward (relatively speaking).

onrail wrote: »

Fair play to you getting out of Civils though. We'd all be on the same ship if we had the financial/personal freedom to take a leap of faith

Its not as big a job as you think.

boziey · 08-02-2017 3:16pm

Is this seen across the other engineering sectors ? Even if it's not directly associated with construction. It hard to find a college in the country that doesn't do engineering so I can see why the supply is so high.

Sparks · 08-02-2017 3:20pm

Software engineering doesn't see this, or anything even close to this.

lawred2 · 08-02-2017 3:23pm

Dunphus wrote: »

It's soul destroying alright. Mind you, we can give up our lives, work 70+ hours, become associates and make 60k if we want.

To be honest I have no idea what the wage will be through my career though it seems the time is right for people to move company.

EDIT: Some people to move company if they want to chase money that is. I'm not saying that's what I'm planning on doing. Re-reading my post I see it might come across that way

60k for 70+ hours a week

that's no reward

onrail · 08-02-2017 5:47pm

lawred2 wrote: »

60k for 70+ hours a week

that's no reward

It's reality in Civils I'm afraid:mad:

08-02-2017 5:49pm

Sparks wrote: »

Software engineering doesn't see this, or anything even close to this.

Nor commissioning or automation.

godtabh · 08-02-2017 10:53pm

lawred2 wrote: »

60k for 70+ hours a week

that's no reward

If that's your reality that's a pity.

thebsharp · 08-02-2017 11:57pm

In Ireland, there's very few industries where you won't be putting in a decent shift to earn that kind of money. Only one or two people I know get away with it and their jobs are still tough.

Government/semi state engineering jobs pay well for reasonable hours but most positions advertised are fixed term contracts these days.

In terms of the working population as a whole, I'd say a very small % of individuals earn above 60k, and that includes people having had increments right the way up until retirement.

thebsharp · 09-02-2017 12:06am

thebsharp wrote: »

In Ireland, there's very few industries where you won't be putting in a decent shift to earn that kind of money. Only one or two people I know get away with it and their jobs are still tough.

Government/semi state engineering jobs pay well for reasonable hours but most positions advertised are fixed term contracts these days.

In terms of the working population as a whole, I'd say a very small % of individuals earn above 60k, and that includes people having had increments right the way up until retirement.

Although I hadn't realised engineers here can work that much. Don't think any projects I've ever worked on have moved fast enough to justify 70 hours in a week, they were all just heading for a shelf either way!

lawred2 · 09-02-2017 7:52am

godtabh wrote: »

If that's your reality that's a pity.

What?

Silo18 · 09-02-2017 11:46am

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Interesting thread.

I’m probably a bit older than most of the posters so I’ll give you my own experience over a longer period as a Civil Engineer.

I graduated in 1998, in retrospect a great time to graduate. I worked in London for a while as a site Engineer and was making very decent money, admittedly working 10hour days and another 6 hours on a Saturday.

Moved back to Dublin after 6 months and joined a Consultancy and was immediately struck by how much my salary dropped. OK, it was 9-5, Mon-Fri but I was on a very small salary. I worked there for 2 years and went to Oz for a year on a working visa.

When I got back to Ireland in early 2001, things got interesting.

I picked up work straight away in a multi-disciplinary consultancy on a salary that was far higher than the one I’d left 12 months previously.

Things were really taking off in the Construction sector, some of the big jobs we had with LA Clients were paying on a time-charge basis. The company was bringing in a lot of money. Staff were becoming difficult to attract and retain. Salary packages became more attractive.

I bought a house in a nice suburban area of Dublin in late 2001 before prices went mental.

I got promoted quickly up the career ladder. I never considered myself to be brilliant, but I was able to deliver good quality work to Clients on time and could manage teams to deliver work quite well.

By 2007 my overall package including pension, car allowance, health insurance, bonuses, was worth well over €100k.

It was great.

I look back on it now, a decade later and it seems unreal. In retrospect it was unreal, it was a bubble economy and a bubble salary – I’m extremely lucky that my cautious nature kicked in, I didn’t go mad. Most of my colleagues were trading up to bigger houses and bigger cars, hell, even buying investment properties in Ireland and abroad – that’s what you did right?

As for myself and my wife, we concentrated on paying off our mortgage. Honestly we sometimes used to question if we were mad. All around us people were spending money because there was more and more coming in and we were there still in our 3bed semi-detached – where was our ambition and drive I’d sometimes wonder?

The crash hit hard in 2009.

Fees dried up quickly, no new work was coming in. Our company overheads were huge and our income shrinking fast.

We started shedding jobs and cutting salaries but by the end of 2010 the company went into liquidation.

My friends and colleagues either joined the dole queues or emigrated.

I was lucky. I got a job with another multi-national consultancy in Dublin. I took about a 50% cut in salary and dropped down 2 two grades, but I considered myself extremely fortunate.

And there I stayed for 6 years. I didn’t enjoy the work, I didn’t particularly like the company but what choice did I have?

We sold our house in Dublin and bought one down the Country, it meant a longer commute but we had 2 kids at this stage and wanted to be closer to our families.

Last year I took another (smaller) cut in Salary and joined a place about 20 minutes’ drive away.

Right now I make €50k.

But, I’m happy. We’re financially secure and I’m enjoying being a Civil Engineer again after a long time of hating it.

My two biggest advantages were, having a wife who worked in a very good industry who’s salary was never that affected by the downturn, and not taking on a lot of debt during the boom years.

My take on Civil Engineering and salary.

First off, without being bombastic about it, Civil Engineering is one of the most important professions in the World. Unfortunately it’s not appreciated by the public at large who’ve been raised on a diet of Suits and Good Wife and think the Legal profession arguing over the meaning of Contract Clauses is the height of industry.

It really makes my blood boil to see the fees the legal profession can charge compared to our industry.

Secondly, our industry is for too cyclical and far too dependent on Government spending.

When times get tough the Capital budget is the first thing cut because spineless politicians find this far more palatable than telling the Guards, the Teachers or the Nurses that they’ll need to take a 5% pay cut.

It’s mostly for those reasons I will do everything I can to encourage my kids not to go into Engineering, especially not Civil.

It’s a shame because the world needs Civil Engineers. I foresee another boom coming in the next few years, it’s becoming apparent that there is a shortage of graduates entering the industry and the same boom-bust cycle will probably play itself out all over again.

It’s depressing that we seem to learn nothing from the mistakes of the past but that’s as much a fault of the short-sighted electorate who elect the gombeen politicians.

My advice for any young graduates reading is, if the good times start to roll you can be certain they’re going to come to a juddering halt. Maximise your earnings during the boom but do not over-extend yourself. If you want a more stable income then get out of Civil Engineering entirely.

Good luck.

09-02-2017 12:01pm

In transition year our applied maths teacher (1996) reckoned civil engineers were two a penny and he advised us to go the mech or electrical eng route.

thebsharp · 09-02-2017 10:03pm

Silo18 wrote: »

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Interesting thread.

I’m probably a bit older than most of the posters so I’ll give you my own experience over a longer period as a Civil Engineer.

I graduated in 1998, in retrospect a great time to graduate. I worked in London for a while as a site Engineer and was making very decent money, admittedly working 10hour days and another 6 hours on a Saturday.

Moved back to Dublin after 6 months and joined a Consultancy and was immediately struck by how much my salary dropped. OK, it was 9-5, Mon-Fri but I was on a very small salary. I worked there for 2 years and went to Oz for a year on a working visa.

When I got back to Ireland in early 2001, things got interesting.

I picked up work straight away in a multi-disciplinary consultancy on a salary that was far higher than the one I’d left 12 months previously.

Things were really taking off in the Construction sector, some of the big jobs we had with LA Clients were paying on a time-charge basis. The company was bringing in a lot of money. Staff were becoming difficult to attract and retain. Salary packages became more attractive.

I bought a house in a nice suburban area of Dublin in late 2001 before prices went mental.

I got promoted quickly up the career ladder. I never considered myself to be brilliant, but I was able to deliver good quality work to Clients on time and could manage teams to deliver work quite well.

By 2007 my overall package including pension, car allowance, health insurance, bonuses, was worth well over €100k.

It was great.

I look back on it now, a decade later and it seems unreal. In retrospect it was unreal, it was a bubble economy and a bubble salary – I’m extremely lucky that my cautious nature kicked in, I didn’t go mad. Most of my colleagues were trading up to bigger houses and bigger cars, hell, even buying investment properties in Ireland and abroad – that’s what you did right?

As for myself and my wife, we concentrated on paying off our mortgage. Honestly we sometimes used to question if we were mad. All around us people were spending money because there was more and more coming in and we were there still in our 3bed semi-detached – where was our ambition and drive I’d sometimes wonder?

The crash hit hard in 2009.

Fees dried up quickly, no new work was coming in. Our company overheads were huge and our income shrinking fast.

We started shedding jobs and cutting salaries but by the end of 2010 the company went into liquidation.

My friends and colleagues either joined the dole queues or emigrated.

I was lucky. I got a job with another multi-national consultancy in Dublin. I took about a 50% cut in salary and dropped down 2 two grades, but I considered myself extremely fortunate.

And there I stayed for 6 years. I didn’t enjoy the work, I didn’t particularly like the company but what choice did I have?

We sold our house in Dublin and bought one down the Country, it meant a longer commute but we had 2 kids at this stage and wanted to be closer to our families.

Last year I took another (smaller) cut in Salary and joined a place about 20 minutes’ drive away.

Right now I make €50k.

But, I’m happy. We’re financially secure and I’m enjoying being a Civil Engineer again after a long time of hating it.

My two biggest advantages were, having a wife who worked in a very good industry who’s salary was never that affected by the downturn, and not taking on a lot of debt during the boom years.

My take on Civil Engineering and salary.

First off, without being bombastic about it, Civil Engineering is one of the most important professions in the World. Unfortunately it’s not appreciated by the public at large who’ve been raised on a diet of Suits and Good Wife and think the Legal profession arguing over the meaning of Contract Clauses is the height of industry.

It really makes my blood boil to see the fees the legal profession can charge compared to our industry.

Secondly, our industry is for too cyclical and far too dependent on Government spending.

When times get tough the Capital budget is the first thing cut because spineless politicians find this far more palatable than telling the Guards, the Teachers or the Nurses that they’ll need to take a 5% pay cut.

It’s mostly for those reasons I will do everything I can to encourage my kids not to go into Engineering, especially not Civil.

It’s a shame because the world needs Civil Engineers. I foresee another boom coming in the next few years, it’s becoming apparent that there is a shortage of graduates entering the industry and the same boom-bust cycle will probably play itself out all over again.

It’s depressing that we seem to learn nothing from the mistakes of the past but that’s as much a fault of the short-sighted electorate who elect the gombeen politicians.

My advice for any young graduates reading is, if the good times start to roll you can be certain they’re going to come to a juddering halt. Maximise your earnings during the boom but do not over-extend yourself. If you want a more stable income then get out of Civil Engineering entirely.

Good luck.

Really appreciated that read, thanks. Sounds like you've had quite the journey along the way, which there's a lot to be said for in life.

lawred2 · 09-02-2017 11:20pm

Silo18 wrote: »

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Interesting thread.

I’m probably a bit older than most of the posters so I’ll give you my own experience over a longer period as a Civil Engineer.

I graduated in 1998, in retrospect a great time to graduate. I worked in London for a while as a site Engineer and was making very decent money, admittedly working 10hour days and another 6 hours on a Saturday.

Moved back to Dublin after 6 months and joined a Consultancy and was immediately struck by how much my salary dropped. OK, it was 9-5, Mon-Fri but I was on a very small salary. I worked there for 2 years and went to Oz for a year on a working visa.

When I got back to Ireland in early 2001, things got interesting.

I picked up work straight away in a multi-disciplinary consultancy on a salary that was far higher than the one I’d left 12 months previously.

Things were really taking off in the Construction sector, some of the big jobs we had with LA Clients were paying on a time-charge basis. The company was bringing in a lot of money. Staff were becoming difficult to attract and retain. Salary packages became more attractive.

I bought a house in a nice suburban area of Dublin in late 2001 before prices went mental.

I got promoted quickly up the career ladder. I never considered myself to be brilliant, but I was able to deliver good quality work to Clients on time and could manage teams to deliver work quite well.

By 2007 my overall package including pension, car allowance, health insurance, bonuses, was worth well over €100k.

It was great.

I look back on it now, a decade later and it seems unreal. In retrospect it was unreal, it was a bubble economy and a bubble salary – I’m extremely lucky that my cautious nature kicked in, I didn’t go mad. Most of my colleagues were trading up to bigger houses and bigger cars, hell, even buying investment properties in Ireland and abroad – that’s what you did right?

As for myself and my wife, we concentrated on paying off our mortgage. Honestly we sometimes used to question if we were mad. All around us people were spending money because there was more and more coming in and we were there still in our 3bed semi-detached – where was our ambition and drive I’d sometimes wonder?

The crash hit hard in 2009.

Fees dried up quickly, no new work was coming in. Our company overheads were huge and our income shrinking fast.

We started shedding jobs and cutting salaries but by the end of 2010 the company went into liquidation.

My friends and colleagues either joined the dole queues or emigrated.

I was lucky. I got a job with another multi-national consultancy in Dublin. I took about a 50% cut in salary and dropped down 2 two grades, but I considered myself extremely fortunate.

And there I stayed for 6 years. I didn’t enjoy the work, I didn’t particularly like the company but what choice did I have?

We sold our house in Dublin and bought one down the Country, it meant a longer commute but we had 2 kids at this stage and wanted to be closer to our families.

Last year I took another (smaller) cut in Salary and joined a place about 20 minutes’ drive away.

Right now I make €50k.

But, I’m happy. We’re financially secure and I’m enjoying being a Civil Engineer again after a long time of hating it.

My two biggest advantages were, having a wife who worked in a very good industry who’s salary was never that affected by the downturn, and not taking on a lot of debt during the boom years.

My take on Civil Engineering and salary.

First off, without being bombastic about it, Civil Engineering is one of the most important professions in the World. Unfortunately it’s not appreciated by the public at large who’ve been raised on a diet of Suits and Good Wife and think the Legal profession arguing over the meaning of Contract Clauses is the height of industry.

It really makes my blood boil to see the fees the legal profession can charge compared to our industry.

Secondly, our industry is for too cyclical and far too dependent on Government spending.

When times get tough the Capital budget is the first thing cut because spineless politicians find this far more palatable than telling the Guards, the Teachers or the Nurses that they’ll need to take a 5% pay cut.

It’s mostly for those reasons I will do everything I can to encourage my kids not to go into Engineering, especially not Civil.

It’s a shame because the world needs Civil Engineers. I foresee another boom coming in the next few years, it’s becoming apparent that there is a shortage of graduates entering the industry and the same boom-bust cycle will probably play itself out all over again.

It’s depressing that we seem to learn nothing from the mistakes of the past but that’s as much a fault of the short-sighted electorate who elect the gombeen politicians.

My advice for any young graduates reading is, if the good times start to roll you can be certain they’re going to come to a juddering halt. Maximise your earnings during the boom but do not over-extend yourself. If you want a more stable income then get out of Civil Engineering entirely.

Good luck.

or be prepared to travel the world and follow the work.

Ireland is simply too small in so many ways. The most detrimental being small in mind.

As you say, first thing to go is the capital budget. Sure look at the bolloxology with the Children's hospital, Dart Underground and Metro North.. 3 projects that would have been completed 5 times over since inception in most developed nations around the world at this stage.

But yet here in Ireland those three projects have enriched many without a shovel in the ground.

The only reason we have motorways is largely because FF could CPO their way about the country.

Tefral · 09-02-2017 11:31pm

lawred2 wrote: »

or be prepared to travel the world and follow the work..

All well and good, and honestly if you want to the big bucks you have to follow the money, however most of the engineer colleagues and friends i would know that are nearing 60k are well off from working in Saudi, Qatar, south africa etc. However, most have failed marraiges etc from working away earning the money.. Its a trade off.

Dunphus · 16-02-2017 5:10pm

Edit: Wrong thread completely

SteadyNed · 21-03-2017 12:01am

Finally done.

Constantly working the guts of 50-55hours/week, PM-ing a number of projects as well as maintaining technical analysis and reporting.

I've figured I'm getting paid a similar salary to my counterparts in the industry. Allowing for those hours, we're earning about stg£11.50/hr (before tax) equating to £9.20/hr after tax. Working in NI.

Frankly, what's the point?

We could have foregone the top 5% Leaving Cert results, neglected our natural aptitude for mathematics and numerical analysis, university debt, hours-upon-hours of study and ultimately, the stress that permeates this industry to drive a digger, a luas, work in tesco or any amount of jobs that contain very little stress for similar or better reward.

Going to go travelling for a year, after which, I'll be researching viable alternative career paths. Thinking along the lines of data analysis or quality management.

It's a real pity, because I used to love the job. The bitterness just got to me in the end.

AAAAAAAAA · 26-03-2017 4:15pm

1 year working, 32k at the moment (started 28k), expect to go up a bit when the salary review rolls in around easter. Not enough at all to be honest, especially considering the sheer expense of living in Dublin. Absolute kick in the teeth to see that a friend graduating the same time as me in law started about 15k higher and has had more frequent salary reviews and increases.

Seems similar for my mates (at least, similar pay for similar work, couple site engineers are on better money but the ludicrous hours mean the hourly is the same or worse), but I'm not happy at all despite generally liking the work. Probably going to have to find some other job unless rent is slashed (lol) or my salary is increased by 50% (also lol)

Is lack of unionisation and lobbying the problem?

Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

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